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CASA spends millions chasing Milton Jones aviation business

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CASA spends millions chasing Milton Jones aviation business

Old 21st Jan 2012, 19:20
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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The winters Tale.

FF. Thank you for the links, very much appreciated. This is what I was hunting for.

It's amazing 'how' cold blooded facts and the (for want of a better expression) the law works in real life. The 'links' are a pretty tough study, but recommended reading for all who are interested in how the system works and more instructively, what makes it tick.

This is a court of law, young man, not a court of justice. ~Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
Super Bowl indeed; this is not a simple, clear cut and dried issue, not at all. However, unaccustomed as I am to defending the 'Authority'; the first thing that struck me was none of the allegations mention acting contrary to the approval (s) granted. It is an important point. Even on it's worst day the Authority has always been approachable about 'special' events, awkward airwork exercises and 'stuff' a bit out of the square. For instance.

'Dear Plod. The producers of documentary we are making have asked if we could do a scene showing us towing a water skier behind a Robbie'. 'The guy is an insured stunt skier, the pilot has done 5 zillion towing exercises (flags, banners etc) and we will have safety boats out along a 1 mile stretch of very isolated dam on a private property'. 'What do you think?. Huh ?. 'Best regards Dodgy Ops'.

This achieves two very desirable outcomes. 1 CASA can answer any questions that may be asked of it when, very publicly, a 'perceived' breach of CAR 149 is viewed in a million homes; 2, it provides them an opportunity to have a say in the overall safety of the operation and provides 'cover' to ensure that if it all goes pear shaped, they don't have to mess about prosecuting someone. (Ma'am, I can assure that absolutely no rabbits were harmed in the making of this commercial).

Instead of;

It is alleged that between August 2009 & August 2010, Mr Milton Jones was the pilot in command of a Robinson R22 helicopter registered VH-HZI when he towed a person underneath and behind the helicopter on a water ski endangering the person.

149 Towing Penalty: 50 penalty units.

(5) It is a defence to a prosecution under sub regulation (1) if:
(a) the pilot in command had the written permission of CASA
for the towing; and
(b) the towing was done in accordance with the directions (if any) specified in the permission
Which has now become a 'Reckless and negligent' allegation with 2 years pokey.

The links provided by FF are worth the trouble to read.

To borrow 'the Kelpies' tag. More to follow.


Paulina: "Here's ado to lock up honesty And honor from th' access of gentle visitors."

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Old 21st Jan 2012, 22:16
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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As you say K definitely worth the read!

All that legal 'toing and froing' just so the CASA investigator can view the uncut footage, says a lot about the legal system!

Now because of all the stalling the investigator (MH) is concerned that the proposed evidence that the uncut footage may/may not show could become null and void as it approaches a statutory time limit (3 years). No wonder the appellant's lawyers are stalling!

This explains a lot in another CASA investigation that I am aware of.

Kharon said:
'Dear Plod. The producers of documentary we are making have asked if we could do a scene showing us towing a water skier behind a Robbie'. 'The guy is an insured stunt skier, the pilot has done 5 zillion towing exercises (flags, banners etc) and we will have safety boats out along a 1 mile stretch of very isolated dam on a private property'. 'What do you think?. Huh ?. 'Best regards Dodgy Ops'.
It is a blight on the regulator that we have come to this impasse. No longer do operators feel free and unencumbered to consult with the regulator on operational matters. Dodgy operators now seem to take great delight in thumbing their nose at the regulator, as a consequence there is less incentive for an operator to be compliant and ultimately safer!

The regulator has become more and more disassociated from the industry, they have lost their mandate to regulate and consult. Sadly this will probably mean we will see more of these types of cases (for those that can afford it) tying up the courts!
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Old 21st Jan 2012, 22:20
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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It is alleged that between August 2009 & August 2010, Mr Milton Jones was the pilot in command of a Robinson R22 helicopter registered VH-HZI when he towed a person underneath and behind the helicopter on a water ski endangering the person.
Can this be challenged? Sure I do not think skiing behind a Robbie is a smart thing to do, and for 360 days a year doing 300km/h down conrod straight in a road car is not a smart thing to do, but the other 5 it makes perfect sense.
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 04:47
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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I would think it is no more dangerous than the Bridge to Bridge ski race on the Hawksbury River.

Issue would be finding a credible expert witness that can testify strongly enough to counter the CASA "we will all be killed" argument.

Brings a new meaning to slung load though.
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 06:37
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Folks,
A point that will have most definitely occurred to the defense counsel is a matter of the fundamental meaning of "reckless" behavior.

I quote from the Act:

20A Reckless operation of aircraft

(1) A person must not operate an aircraft being reckless as to whether the manner of operation could endanger the life of another person.
(2) A person must not operate an aircraft being reckless as to whether the manner of operation could endanger the person or property of another person.
Firstly, it is fundamental that you can't be reckless and negligent to yourself (although and older version of S20A(2) purported to advance that curious legal concept), so it remains for CASA to prove that towing a water skier is being "reckless" to the person being towed.

This is a completely different issue to the matter of whether regulations have a provision for towing anything, water skier or whatever, from a chopper.

The legal test for "reckless" (and negligent) is a high test. Even if CASA get their hands on all the footage, to prove the event, they will still have a long way to go to prove recklessness and/or negligence ---- particularly as the water skier was obviously a willing participant.

Voluntary assumption of risk by the person towed will be significant.

flyingfiend,

T28D, Gobbledock; the law and how it 'works', to put it in layman's language is obviously not your strength.
I can assure you that T28D (being a lawyer) has a very good grasp of the law!!

Tootle pip!!
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 06:41
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Well unless the rope was tied around the skiers neck I guess that's the end of that charge then.
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 08:02
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Except that if the individual being towed was under the age of 18 and possibly not mature enough to assess the risks for themselves. It's been a while since I saw the episode so I can't confirm his age.
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 08:30
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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If he's old enough to water ski he might just know how to let go of a ski rope.
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 08:57
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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If I may put in a couple of points, assuming that most of you here are stiff wing drivers and maybe not overly familiar with rotary ops and the background of towing from a hook?

When towing from a hook there are stresses imposed that the hook and/or frame are not always designed to take: within reasonable limits the hook load is expected to be perpendicular to the airframe. When towing, that stress becomes an aft pull at a point below and around the CG thus pulling the nose down: some airframes can cope, some cannot. With its tall mast and teetering head the R22 falls more into the latter category; towing a water skier from the hook on a 'loose' line would meet many definitions of high risk.

I know that CASA have approved towing of this nature under a permission, but one requirement was to have a heavy deadweight on a long line off the hook and attach the tow line to that weight. The pull is then on the bottom of the long line, keeping the line more perpendicular to the hook.

The other safety feature of pulling from the bottom of a long line (50 - 100ft) is to safeguard the tail rotor should the skier let go of the tow rope. Straight off the hook the tow rope could well fly up into the TR, especially given the sudden release of a force giving a nose down moment at the same time.

None of this is rocket science: it's just not particularly bright to let oneself be filmed for national TV doing it in such a cavalier manner, and then try to dismiss it as perfectly OK and safe.

It isn't, and it wasn't.
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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 11:18
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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When towing from a hook there are stresses imposed that the hook and/or frame are not always designed to take...
...not always, though in this case do we know the particulars of the hook STC.. ?


...With its tall mast and teetering head the R22 falls more into the latter category...
Personly ah thinks the R22 is a danger just sitting on the ground, let alone actualy flying one - though each to his own.. (note - I fly other brands of heli)



The other safety feature of pulling from the bottom of a long line (50 - 100ft) is to safeguard the tail rotor should the skier let go of the tow rope...
Use a shorter rope and fly faster....


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Old 22nd Jan 2012, 19:10
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Slung Jury.


A stand alone alleged breach of 149 if proven carries a 50 point penalty, so to get a Judge sufficiently interested in issuing a search and seizure warrant you'd have to 'spice it up a bit' otherwise no warrant. I think it would be hard to get a 'conviction' on this item. It's not illegal under the FAR, happens all over the world regularly, willing participant and it is an event for which CASA may issue an approval. So scratch bait towing from the list of heinous crimes and assign it to the naughty boy pile, (a fine perhaps). Whether it was foolhardy or not don't signify much; Mum went ballistic but his mates thought it well cool. The CASA hysterical screams of reckless and negligent seem to fade away a little about now.


Now this one is sinister:-
It is alleged that between August 2009 & August 2010, Mr Milton Jones was the pilot in command of Robinson R22 and Robinson R44 helicopters and performing commercial operations (collection of crocodile eggs) for which a commercial helicopter licence is required when he was only the holder of a private helicopter licence.
I expect the crocodile community and the local green welly mob are grateful for CASA safety concerns in the airspace surrounding their habitat. That said we are back to the PP regulations defining what is or is not a 'commercial' operation. Now the FAR are tough on people conducting a pre determined 'commercial' operation with a PPL. The great egg hunt may or may not 'technically' be illegal under Gods Own Rules, but again stand alone what is it. I doubt it is sufficient grounds for 'his honour' to issue serious paper work, more like he'd sling 'em out of his court.

This proceeding raises for consideration whether there was a proper basis for the issue of a warrant to seize material. This, in turn, necessitates an examination of the provisions of 32 AF Act1988 An answer will then be provided to the following question: did the second respondent Magistrate have a sufficient basis for being satisfied that there were reasonable grounds for suspecting that there was a particular thing on certain premises that may afford evidence of the commission of a civil aviation offence? For reasons that follow the answer to that question is, yes.
Depends on how the information was provided to the layman I should imagine. But when the Daemon of myth and legend "The Safety Monster" raises it's head seems all bets are off.

Last edited by Kharon; 22nd Jan 2012 at 19:10. Reason: If it feels good, do it.
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Old 24th Jan 2012, 01:22
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CASA and the psychic DAMP test.


Fedral Court: It is alleged that between August 2009 & August 2010, Mr Milton Jones was the pilot in command of Robinson R22, helicopter registered VH-HZI when he consumed alcoholic liquor within 8 hours of the departure of the aircraft.
Willyleaks: It is alleged that between August 2000 & August 2001, Mr S. Clause was the pilot in command of Reindeer R6, sled registered NP-HOHO when he consumed alcoholic liquor within 8 hours of the departure of the mission.
Willyleaks: It is alleged that between August 2002 & August 2003, Mr E. Bunny was the pilot in command of Chocolate Egg, blimp registered EB YUM when he consumed alcoholic liquor within 8 hours of the departure of the blimp.

Willyleaks: It is alleged that between August 2003 & August 2004, Mr H. Potter was the pilot in command of Nimbus 2000 racing broom registered HP TRIX when he consumed alcoholic liquor within 8 hours of the departure of the broom
.

CASA are developing skills previously unknown to mankind, what's next, telepathic Show Cause; or perhaps a bit of spoon bending, to while away the hours waiting for the next signed confession to arrive.

I thought this was all just a rumour, but the way I am hearing it, seems not.
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Old 24th Jan 2012, 04:54
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I guess it just shows nobody here knows anything about trolling for croc's.
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Old 24th Jan 2012, 05:28
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Putting a pin in a CASA voodoo doll !

I will start by saying that the following in no way should be interpreted as other than the jottings of an observer who has no interest in the matter other than a professional one in the outcome.
Now that is 'standard CASA deflection 101'! So you are merely a legal jotter who happens to be interested in aviation mischief ? Your trying to make the point that you are not related to CASA (you have also done this in a previous post) is laughable flyingfiend. It is also a standard attitude of a CASA employee to think he is smarter than the rest of the aviation commnity.
Flyingfiend You may comment that I am not 'as well versed in the law as you' but I can confidently say that 'you are not as versed at being grieved by a corrupt malfeasant organisation' as I have been on the receiving end of. Anyway, don't you have some high level philosophical wankery to attend to in Canberra? On your way.

The best spoon bender is the whitch doctor of casa, has a Doctorate of Philosophy in law from the Research School of Social Sciences at the Australian National University
Yes, that makes him an aviation expert doesn't it?

[Title Law and sorcery in Papua New Guinea : a reconsideration of the relationship between law and custom - Published 1996]
Now don't everybody rush out and buy a copy. However I am certain Blackhand, Clinton and Flyingfiend have a laminated autographed copy on their bookshelves! I would however happily accept a few free copies to place in the men's shitter on the ramp, they would be used very quickly and 'robustly'. Reading that crap would be as exciting as watching the lawn grow or watching Julia Gillard act in 'The Taming Of The Shrew' !
(sorry Kharon, I know, Julia acting out Shakespeare is nauseating but then so is CASA's reg reform program)

Last edited by gobbledock; 24th Jan 2012 at 05:33. Reason: Casting a spell
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Old 24th Jan 2012, 06:23
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Now I understand 23yrs reg reform has been going. Am I right in thinking jmac has completed 3 of his 5 yr term? Do you think he will want to do another 5yrs and chances of being offered? Will it be more regulator with a capital R or return to small r regulator?
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Old 24th Jan 2012, 09:02
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Good point Biscuit :

I HEAR the only reason he's still there is that RMcD sister can't afford to pay him out. Apparently, so I hear; he and his 'appointees' days are numbered . (Goldan weeks spent quietly in chambers, academic like). Only a rumor of course but, it seems he and a couple of his mates will be 'an embarrassment' to the new Government Minister. Can't think why; or 'where' they got their information; aye, 'tis a puzzle all right.

Betting on the election date is tight - 1 Bad prawn will do the trick (so I hear).

Bring back Dick, bring back Dick.

Joking , joking, I am, seriously, honest. No no no; Urghh!.

Last edited by Kharon; 24th Jan 2012 at 09:31.
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Old 24th Jan 2012, 09:43
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I heard that JMc won't extend beyond his current term. Those blokes rarely (if ever) extend - I cant think of any in the past 20 years or so; in fact, most have got the chop before their term is completed!
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Old 24th Jan 2012, 19:49
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Voltaire

Glad someone picked it up. ( wuz gettin all wurried about it). Thought I'd try to slip it in with the next bit about the croc eggs, you know - "Crocs Sue CASA, creating undue hunger and hardship in the community'.

Nice to have you back
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Old 24th Jan 2012, 21:29
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Prawns, pony pooh and politics

I heard that JMc won't extend beyond his current term. Those blokes rarely (if ever) extend - I cant think of any in the past 20 years or so; in fact, most have got the chop before their term is completed!
I heard similar about the Skull. Mind you, the Director/CEO whatever you want to call him each time is merely a fall guy anyway. As pointed out, they only last a couple of years, a bigger issue is the cockroaches that support the Director/CEO, you know, the ones that the can of Baygon misses every time, the ones that have been trough dwelling for 10, 20+ years. Sadly every time a spring clean is done these vermin escape the clean out and remain to infect yet another generation of hot shot managers who tend to come and go.
Hopefully soon when Gillard gets booted out we may end up with some aviation changes? I mean, to be honest, labor, liberals, greens they all are usless piles of steaming pony poo, just like CASA, but maybe the new government will use CASA as it's way 'to make it's stamp' on the political scene for the next 3 years ?
Will it be more regulator with a capital R or return to small r regulator?
Big R, small r, what is the difference really, you could label it 'Capital P for pony pooh' and it will still be a bureaucraticaly incompetent steaming pile of monkey crap.
Betting on the election date is tight - 1 Bad prawn will do the trick (so I hear).
Abuse of Ministerial credit cards, lying under oath and using taxpayer funds to pay for hummers is a possible latent condition that could bring the election date forward! Anyway, I am off to put $250.00 into the pokies, see ya.............

Last edited by gobbledock; 24th Jan 2012 at 21:31. Reason: Busy reading a book by J.Aleck
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Old 24th Jan 2012, 22:17
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Paid Hummers?

"using taxpayer funds to pay for hummer"
Jeez Gobbledock, I hope you mean the motor vehicle! If not all CASA employees will have to pause negotiations to ensure that is included in the EBA.
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