RADIO CALLS!
Originally Posted by Ledslud
where parroting phrases "by the book" takes precedence over Annex X, Vol. 2, and such parroting is regarded by people like you as the "height of professionalism".
The thing that always comes out in threads like this is that the AIP is not readily interpreted by all. Pilots read the same section and continue to come up with different opinions on what is required. The book is simply not clear. Not all calls are covered and a complete list of ICAO radio calls is only available if you pay for it. A complete reference does not exist on the web for free. I haven't looked for 12 months so if anyone has a link to all calls please prove me wrong and post it.
Many moons ago, there was a Trevor Tomms publication that layed out the vast majority of radio calls needed to operate in Australia in an unambigous manner. Even I could read it and know exactly what I was supposed to say. This type of publication is needed, something that takes the guessing out of what the AIP means. For those of you that think they can define exactly what is required from the AIP, I guarantee that I can find at least one call where you will be unsure.
Many moons ago, there was a Trevor Tomms publication that layed out the vast majority of radio calls needed to operate in Australia in an unambigous manner. Even I could read it and know exactly what I was supposed to say. This type of publication is needed, something that takes the guessing out of what the AIP means. For those of you that think they can define exactly what is required from the AIP, I guarantee that I can find at least one call where you will be unsure.
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Aviate
Navigate
Communicate
Who cares if the radio calls are not perfect out of the AIP. Most of us have other interests outside our jobs and do not spend every waking minute of the day rehearsing their calls.
What a joke.
Navigate
Communicate
Who cares if the radio calls are not perfect out of the AIP. Most of us have other interests outside our jobs and do not spend every waking minute of the day rehearsing their calls.
What a joke.
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Aviate, navigate, communicate huh? Communicate is still in that saying - just because it is a lower priority doesn't give you an excuse to do it incorrectly.
That's alright, keep thinking about your sail boat and don't worry about proper communications. Gives me something to laugh at when I hear your tripe on the radio. I have a really sad life anyway, only reading through the AIPs on weekends - so the laughing at your rubbish calls helps me prevent self- harm.
That's alright, keep thinking about your sail boat and don't worry about proper communications. Gives me something to laugh at when I hear your tripe on the radio. I have a really sad life anyway, only reading through the AIPs on weekends - so the laughing at your rubbish calls helps me prevent self- harm.
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Actually that's well put 'Tempo'. Some take the R/T too seriously.NOBODY does it perfectly ALL the time inc ATC so am amazed that this thread has lasted so long! I guess willy waving has become a sport here in Oz
Wmk2
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Well, it's amusing to see that this thread is still going. 
Travelator
Actually, I was simply returning the same kind of throwaway line back at Bloggs. Nothing more than that.
I agree! I try to do all my radio calls correctly. But if I get it wrong I'm not going to obsess about it. We all have our pet hates with what we hear on the radio, but apart from rolling my eyes at the time (like this: 
), I move on.
Not sure where you're going with this, as the point was mentioning "Climbing flight levels" on the CTAF.
Big picture stuff here. If you're at FL350 why are you listening to a CTAF? You do understand that at FL350 you're in Class A airspace, so no need to call me to arrange separation?
Not sure what distance your FCOM says to monitor CTAF if arriving at a non-controlled airport (ours is 30Nm). But even if it were TOD it wouldn't matter. As I said to Hold Short, if the departing aircraft is on anything like a reciprocal heading you're going to be potentially conflicting traffic if the departure aircraft is climbing to anything over 4000' AGL. So you're probably going to have to call and arrange separation in any event.
Big call there, fella. I love being called lazy and ignorant because I have a different OPINION than you. If all the calls were presented in an easy to understand, easy to reference, simple manner then I might agree.
Agree. But Communicate is the third priority for a reason. People shouldn't be concentrating on getting "Communicate" 100% correct 100% of the time at the expense of "Aviate" or "Navigate".
Still more gold in this thread:
Back this statement up? Of course not.
Why stop at r/t though? How about pilots who don't have shiny shoes or who don't wear a tie or a hat? They don't care about their appearance. If they don't care about their apperance then they probably don't care about other aspects of their aviation. How about pilots who get speeding tickets? If they are so casual about road rules then they probably break avaition rules as well? How many times have you read on Prune "How can you be a professional pilot if you can't spell properly?"
I've read all these opinions here on Prune before, and they all make about the same amount of sense
Another gem
Absolute rubbish! If they're accurate and compliant with their radio calls, the ONLY conclusion that you can draw is that they're accurate and compliant with their radio calls. ANY other conclusion base on r/t alone tells me that your decision making ability is faulty.
You don't have to look further than this thread to find examples from pilots who claim to have great r/t but have indicated that other aspects of their aviation could do with improvement.
DIVOSH!
P.S. Wally, and SDT
Travelator
You have accused Bloggs as being black or white yet you are also guilty by stating this is compliance vs productivity. You can be compliant and productive, they are not mutually exclusive.
If you say taxis instead of taxiing then you are being productive, however if you say taxiing then you are both productive and compliant.
), I move on.
As for the climbing to flight levels. Simply say the level you are climbing to, your flight planned level. If you want to change it then can do so with ATC and everybody knows what you are doing. I am at FL350 and you say flight levels, are you planning on climbing that high? Am I going have to make a radio call to see if we conflict? If you say your flight planned altitude then that covers everyone in between and excludes all else. Far more efficient and productive.
Big picture stuff here. If you're at FL350 why are you listening to a CTAF? You do understand that at FL350 you're in Class A airspace, so no need to call me to arrange separation?
Not sure what distance your FCOM says to monitor CTAF if arriving at a non-controlled airport (ours is 30Nm). But even if it were TOD it wouldn't matter. As I said to Hold Short, if the departing aircraft is on anything like a reciprocal heading you're going to be potentially conflicting traffic if the departure aircraft is climbing to anything over 4000' AGL. So you're probably going to have to call and arrange separation in any event.
If you can't be bothered doing it the way it is set out in the AIP then that's fine by me, just don't try and justify it by being anything other than lazy and ignorant.
Somebody else mentioned the old "aviate, navigate, communicate" chestnut. "Communicate" being the third priority is not an excuse to be sloppy.
Still more gold in this thread:
The other surprising fact about many of the responses to the original post is that many people fail to make the connection between slack/lazy radio use, and overall operational professionalism.
Why stop at r/t though? How about pilots who don't have shiny shoes or who don't wear a tie or a hat? They don't care about their appearance. If they don't care about their apperance then they probably don't care about other aspects of their aviation. How about pilots who get speeding tickets? If they are so casual about road rules then they probably break avaition rules as well? How many times have you read on Prune "How can you be a professional pilot if you can't spell properly?"
I've read all these opinions here on Prune before, and they all make about the same amount of sense
Another gem
I can almost guarantee that a crew who make the effort to be accurate and compliant with AIP radio calls are more than likely to carry that professionalism through to other aspects of their flying.
Absolute rubbish! If they're accurate and compliant with their radio calls, the ONLY conclusion that you can draw is that they're accurate and compliant with their radio calls. ANY other conclusion base on r/t alone tells me that your decision making ability is faulty.
You don't have to look further than this thread to find examples from pilots who claim to have great r/t but have indicated that other aspects of their aviation could do with improvement.
DIVOSH!
P.S. Wally, and SDT
Back this statement up? Of course not.
I've seen some pilots who are disciplined and accurate on the radio who were poor overall, and pilots with slack communications who were good overall. But they are the exception to the rule - in the vast majority of cases (>95%) the two go hand in hand.
Why stop at r/t though? How about pilots who don't have shiny shoes or who don't wear a tie or a hat? They don't care about their appearance. If they don't care about their apperance then they probably don't care about other aspects of their aviation. How about pilots who get speeding tickets? If they are so casual about road rules then they probably break avaition rules as well? How many times have you read on Prune "How can you be a professional pilot if you can't spell properly?"
I've read all these opinions here on Prune before, and they all make about the same amount of sense
I've read all these opinions here on Prune before, and they all make about the same amount of sense
Your profile says you are a 48 year old Dash 8 FO. I'm just curious, but is that accurate?
Big call there, fella. I love being called lazy and ignorant because I have a different OPINION than you. If all the calls were presented in an easy to understand, easy to reference, simple manner then I might agree.
Travelator 1, Divosh 0.
Appropriate for a C152 operation. 
Originally Posted by Divosh
Not sure what distance your FCOM says to monitor CTAF if arriving at a non-controlled airport (ours is 30Nm).
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May be they should introduce an exam here In OZ like in JAA land that requires you to conduct a VFR & IFR coms exam before you can be issued with an licence be it PPL or ATPL. ( it basically gives you 4 answers and you have to pick the correct answer for the situation given )
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People in glass houses.
This thread has dragged on long enough. The irony is that the majority of posts contain grammatical, punctuation, spelling or typing errors. If pontificating about others, first ensure your own house is in order.
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Aviate, navigate, communicate huh? Communicate is still in that saying - just because it is a lower priority doesn't give you an excuse to do it incorrectly.
That's alright, keep thinking about your sail boat and don't worry about proper communications. Gives me something to laugh at when I hear your tripe on the radio. I have a really sad life anyway, only reading through the AIPs on weekends - so the laughing at your rubbish calls helps me prevent self- harm.
That's alright, keep thinking about your sail boat and don't worry about proper communications. Gives me something to laugh at when I hear your tripe on the radio. I have a really sad life anyway, only reading through the AIPs on weekends - so the laughing at your rubbish calls helps me prevent self- harm.
It's the weekend so you better get back to that AIP. Have fun! I will go back to my imaginary sail boat.
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It was a well thought out reply.
Don't worry though, I won't be picking you up when you get it wrong. That's the job of your training and checking department. Hopefully they're doing their job properly. If you are a trainer or checkie, god help us all with an attitude like that.
I'm all for task management etc, but there's no excuse for getting R/T wrong. I'm not talking about "ing" vs "s" - that was never my argument, nor am I arguing that when the ****e hits the fan and you've reached the point of task saturation that you should still be able to communicate in a 100% error free manner. But when you hear an RPT operator who can't either get a CTAF call or departure report done properly, it says a lot them as a pilot. Not communicating properly can cause back-flow problems to navigating and aviating. At the very least it is time consuming when ATC or other pilots call them back. At the worst, accidents have happened.
How many controllers have replied to this thread saying "nah, it's cool when pilots don't give me the required info"? None! They're the ones processing the information we give them. The ones pulling their willies are the pilots who think they're too cool to research or go back through their procedures once or twice a year.
Don't worry though, I won't be picking you up when you get it wrong. That's the job of your training and checking department. Hopefully they're doing their job properly. If you are a trainer or checkie, god help us all with an attitude like that.
I'm all for task management etc, but there's no excuse for getting R/T wrong. I'm not talking about "ing" vs "s" - that was never my argument, nor am I arguing that when the ****e hits the fan and you've reached the point of task saturation that you should still be able to communicate in a 100% error free manner. But when you hear an RPT operator who can't either get a CTAF call or departure report done properly, it says a lot them as a pilot. Not communicating properly can cause back-flow problems to navigating and aviating. At the very least it is time consuming when ATC or other pilots call them back. At the worst, accidents have happened.
How many controllers have replied to this thread saying "nah, it's cool when pilots don't give me the required info"? None! They're the ones processing the information we give them. The ones pulling their willies are the pilots who think they're too cool to research or go back through their procedures once or twice a year.
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Ho Hum...
Where are we?
Oh yes.
Slippery Pete
Congratulations! Someone who can actually argue a point without resorting to name calling!
Well, that's your opinion based on your experience. I've an extensive training background (non-aviation) and one thing my experience has told me is that there are very few individuals who have excellent skills in their entire skill-set; most people have an Achilles heel in at least one area.
I don't have an extensive aviation background (only started flying 10 years ago) but once again my experience doesn't back up your claim. I've seen gifted aviators who struggle with radio calls. I've seen people with great radio skills who can't land without denting the runway or get lost within 50 miles of departure without a GPS! I've seen pilots who are crap at everything and a very few who are great at everything. Most pilots I've seen have a skills area which isn't as good as their other skills.
So my opinion is different to yours. But my opinion doesn't lead me to make unfounded assumptions based on nothing more than how someone makes a radio call!
Well, you were able to argue one point before posting some kind of smug, patronising reply. 
or this one:
Happy to discuss the issue, if you're capable of doing so.
Bloggs
Very droll, and a typical "intelligent" contribution to the debate 
It was Slippery Pete and not Travelator who replied. Try to keep up, mate.
FTS
Well, that's because the point of this thread isn't about missing information in a radio call; it's about pilots who give all the information but who get some of the words wrong like "Taxiing" instead of "Taxi's".
But there was a controller who appreciated the "Centre, ABC, IFR taxi" call so that he could prepare to receive info.
You'll need to explain that one a bit better.
155 posts so far and it appears that there are two groups:
Group one (Bloggs, S_P, Hold Short, et al) who consider that 100% AIP compliance 100% of the time is the only acceptable outcome when on the radio.
Group two (Me, and a few others) know the calls, but accept that some people say the wrong word (e.g. "Left" instead of "Leaving"). They also acknowledge why some people may make a radio call such as (e.g. "Centre, ABC, IFR taxi") even though it's not in the AIP.
This group don't have an issue with this because they're aware that the pilot is still communicating effectively and that effective communication is more important than 100% AIP compliance.
I've heard non-compliant calls from every airline, the RAAF as well as ATC. I've never heard ATC ask for clarification when a pilot mentions "This time", "taxiing", "Pending Clearance", etc.
DIVOSH!
Oh yes.
Slippery Pete
Congratulations! Someone who can actually argue a point without resorting to name calling!
That's my opinion from years of checking airline pilots, but if you don't agree that's none of my business and you are entitled to that opinion.
I've seen some pilots who are disciplined and accurate on the radio who were poor overall, and pilots with slack communications who were good overall. But they are the exception to the rule - in the vast majority of cases (>95%) the two go hand in hand.
I've seen some pilots who are disciplined and accurate on the radio who were poor overall, and pilots with slack communications who were good overall. But they are the exception to the rule - in the vast majority of cases (>95%) the two go hand in hand.
I don't have an extensive aviation background (only started flying 10 years ago) but once again my experience doesn't back up your claim. I've seen gifted aviators who struggle with radio calls. I've seen people with great radio skills who can't land without denting the runway or get lost within 50 miles of departure without a GPS! I've seen pilots who are crap at everything and a very few who are great at everything. Most pilots I've seen have a skills area which isn't as good as their other skills.
So my opinion is different to yours. But my opinion doesn't lead me to make unfounded assumptions based on nothing more than how someone makes a radio call!
I'm sorry it doesn't make sense to you, but it would to most pilots who treat flying as their profession, not their job.
or this one:
It would probably take you less time to read that section of the AIP and become more compliant than to type your last post about how unimportant you think it is.
Bloggs
Travelator 1, Divosh 0.
It was Slippery Pete and not Travelator who replied. Try to keep up, mate.
FTS
How many controllers have replied to this thread saying "nah, it's cool when pilots don't give me the required info"? None!
But there was a controller who appreciated the "Centre, ABC, IFR taxi" call so that he could prepare to receive info.
Not communicating properly can cause back-flow problems to navigating and aviating
155 posts so far and it appears that there are two groups:
Group one (Bloggs, S_P, Hold Short, et al) who consider that 100% AIP compliance 100% of the time is the only acceptable outcome when on the radio.
Group two (Me, and a few others) know the calls, but accept that some people say the wrong word (e.g. "Left" instead of "Leaving"). They also acknowledge why some people may make a radio call such as (e.g. "Centre, ABC, IFR taxi") even though it's not in the AIP.
This group don't have an issue with this because they're aware that the pilot is still communicating effectively and that effective communication is more important than 100% AIP compliance.
I've heard non-compliant calls from every airline, the RAAF as well as ATC. I've never heard ATC ask for clarification when a pilot mentions "This time", "taxiing", "Pending Clearance", etc.
DIVOSH!
If you are in the industry as a professional you will realise that there is more to flying than sounding like the ace of base.
If you think trying to "sound like the ace of the base" on the radio = accurate, compliant & safe radio you have utterly missed the fundamental point of the original post.
I have not looked at the AIP communications section for a long time and have no desire to either.
Please don't tell me that you were once a flying instructor or are planning on an instructing or training position - I can handle individuals with this attitude and accept that it probably won't change, but I shudder to think that this level of disregard might be passed on to others in the industry, particularly newbies.
It's the weekend so you better get back to that AIP. Have fun! I will go back to my imaginary sail boat.
A pilot who doesn't want to get better in every area is an accident waiting to happen.
Originally Posted by Divosh
Travelator
Quote:
You have accused Bloggs as being black or white yet you are also guilty by stating this is compliance vs productivity. You can be compliant and productive, they are not mutually exclusive.
Actually, I was simply returning the same kind of throwaway line back at Bloggs. Nothing more than that.
Quote:
You have accused Bloggs as being black or white yet you are also guilty by stating this is compliance vs productivity. You can be compliant and productive, they are not mutually exclusive.
Actually, I was simply returning the same kind of throwaway line back at Bloggs. Nothing more than that.
Originally Posted by Divosh
Bloggs
Travelator 1, Divosh 0.
It was Slippery Pete and not Travelator who replied. Try to keep up, mate.
Classic. Don't do what the book says, do what you think Annex X Vol 2 wants you to say. Bla Bla bla!
Unlike you, I actually know and understand what Annex X, Vol 2 (or PANS/RAC 4444) says, including the history of it's development --- as well as the Australian AIP, and its great gaps in this area.
There is far more than just standard phrases, it's all about how to communicate --- including, for example, how you vary what you have to say, depending on the circumstances.
In complete contrast to the Great Australian One Size Fits All, rote repetition without too much (any??) thought at to what and why.
Thank goodness for spreading CPDLC position reporting, I am increasingly spared the agony of listening, too often, to many an Australian trained pilot trying to pass something as simple as a position report on a busy frequency --- and get it ICAO correct.
Why don't you do something smart, invest in a copy of UK CAA CAP413 (99.9% straight ICAO) and actually learn about "aviation communications". It is a great pity there is no similar CAAP here in Australia, it's a great training and reference tool.
Tootle pip!!