Airline Pilots: Is Anybody Interested in Being One? (AVWEB)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Right here
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airline Pilots: Is Anybody Interested in Being One? (AVWEB)
Airline Pilots: Is Anybody Interested in Being One?
Email this blog |Print this blog
By Captain X
Pilot Ennui
Captain X is a training Captain for a well-known regional airline and occasional correspondent to AVweb and our aviation publications. We're publishing his compelling observations as a guest blog. --Paul Bertorelli
We can't quite put our fingers on what's occurring in the industry right now. I've talked to my counterparts at other regional airlines and they all are seeing the same thing. For lack of a better description, a large percentage of newly hired airline pilots just aren't as excited about their career prospects as they used to be.
During our last hiring boom in 2007 and 2008, it seemed as if we had people climbing all over each other just to get an interview. Now, we'll frequently call 10 for an interview and only five will show up. I don't know if other airlines are hiring them before we can interview them or what, but it just seems the level of interest in our industry isn't there.
Of those who do come to the interview, we are appalled at how many show up and can't pass a written test. Our interview test isn't that hard. It's straight out of the FAA commercial pilot written. We have a couple of questions we took straight from the AIM. I'm amazed at how many people who want to be airline pilots struggle to interpret a TAF! I mean if you want an airline job, wouldn't you at least review the rules on holding pattern speeds and what an ILS Critical Area sign looks like?
Then we send them on to a basic instrument proficiency checkout in an Elite PCATD. Again, it's shocking how many people can't scan a basic six-pack. Is it because Cessnas today have G-1000's? I actually interviewed one candidate who got so slow on an ILS that he stalled and went out of control. He probably would have gotten lost in the holding pattern, except he never got there because he turned the wrong way when I told him to go directly to the VOR. He couldn't read the HSI well enough to know whether he was TO or FROM.
Even those who do get hired seem to lack a basic knowledge of operating in an IFR environment. One of my instructors came to me one day in the middle of a lesson and he was extremely frustrated. He said he couldn't introduce any emergencies to the crew he was working with in the procedures trainer because they were struggling so hard just to navigate. And this was with the FMS fully functional!
It seems that there are a lot of students who think "close enough" is close enough. We tell them on day one of Basic Indoc (and every day thereafter) how important it is to learn their callouts, flows and profiles. Twenty-one days later, they're still arguing with us that they have the callouts down "pretty well." In our program, they don't even go to the simulator until they've spent 13 days in the procedures trainer, and we still have students who struggle to get ready for the sim.
We've discussed this amongst ourselves and think there are many issues at work here: (1) Maybe the younger generation just has a sense of entitlement. I know I sound like an old man here, but there really is a perceptible difference in work ethic from young pilots today and new pilots just four years ago. One of my most senior ground instructors mentioned that it's just different this time around.
(2) The industry has driven the good people away: The last four years have not been kind to the airline industry. Maybe today's best and brightest have decided to go to medical school instead of pursuing their real dream of aviation. I live in the midwest and I think everyone around here knows someone who used to fly for either Delta or Comair who has been devastated by what happened at Delta over the last few years. A friend of mine on furlough tried to get a state grant to get re-trained with a 737 type rating so he could apply to Southwest. In the past, other pilots have been able to do that. This time around, the state of Ohio denied his request by saying that basically they didn't think there would be enough flying jobs in the future to support him and that his retraining grant needed to be spent pursuing another career. It doesn't take long for word to get around that flying isn't exactly the positive career choice it used to be.
(3) The upcoming 1500-hour / ATP minimum requirement for all airline pilots might be scaring away good people. The ATP rule won't go into effect until 2013, so this is a perfect time to get an airline job. In two years of flying 85 hours a month, it'll be easy to beef up the logbook. This may be the last time in history that a guy with less than 1000 hours has a shot at an airline career. But I'm concerned that some pilots have only heard part of the story and have given up, thinking the rule is already in effect.
(4) Now that we're all wired and connected to the cloud, we just process information differently: My company is taking a hard look at our training procedures to see if we can present the information in a way that's more exciting for tech-savvy pilots. Unfortunately, many regional airlines see their training departments as expenses rather than investments, so there's not exactly an open checkbook for new training initiatives.
(5) Economic hard times have made it difficult for instrument pilots to stay proficient if they're paying for their time themselves. I'll be honest; I don't know if I could have afforded to get all my ratings in today's fuel environment. I paid between $50 and $85 an hour to rent most of my training planes, and I struggled to do that. That was when avgas was about $1.50 a gallon. Throw in reduced hours at work or downright unemployment, and staying proficient takes a back seat. We're seeing a lot of people coming in the door who haven't touched an airplane for three years!
(6) No one is getting commercial pilots' licenses any more. The FAA will tell you that the number of commercial pilots licenses issued has plummeted in the last three years. It is only a fraction of what it was four years ago. That means that the regionals are going to be competing for a smaller and smaller pool of pilots. When that happens, the quality of the candidate pool remaining quickly drops.
Everyone on the inside of the industry sees it, but none of us knows exactly what "it" is yet. I personally think it's a combination of all the above factors.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but we are working hard to find one.
Email this blog |Print this blog
By Captain X
Pilot Ennui
Captain X is a training Captain for a well-known regional airline and occasional correspondent to AVweb and our aviation publications. We're publishing his compelling observations as a guest blog. --Paul Bertorelli
We can't quite put our fingers on what's occurring in the industry right now. I've talked to my counterparts at other regional airlines and they all are seeing the same thing. For lack of a better description, a large percentage of newly hired airline pilots just aren't as excited about their career prospects as they used to be.
During our last hiring boom in 2007 and 2008, it seemed as if we had people climbing all over each other just to get an interview. Now, we'll frequently call 10 for an interview and only five will show up. I don't know if other airlines are hiring them before we can interview them or what, but it just seems the level of interest in our industry isn't there.
Of those who do come to the interview, we are appalled at how many show up and can't pass a written test. Our interview test isn't that hard. It's straight out of the FAA commercial pilot written. We have a couple of questions we took straight from the AIM. I'm amazed at how many people who want to be airline pilots struggle to interpret a TAF! I mean if you want an airline job, wouldn't you at least review the rules on holding pattern speeds and what an ILS Critical Area sign looks like?
Then we send them on to a basic instrument proficiency checkout in an Elite PCATD. Again, it's shocking how many people can't scan a basic six-pack. Is it because Cessnas today have G-1000's? I actually interviewed one candidate who got so slow on an ILS that he stalled and went out of control. He probably would have gotten lost in the holding pattern, except he never got there because he turned the wrong way when I told him to go directly to the VOR. He couldn't read the HSI well enough to know whether he was TO or FROM.
Even those who do get hired seem to lack a basic knowledge of operating in an IFR environment. One of my instructors came to me one day in the middle of a lesson and he was extremely frustrated. He said he couldn't introduce any emergencies to the crew he was working with in the procedures trainer because they were struggling so hard just to navigate. And this was with the FMS fully functional!
It seems that there are a lot of students who think "close enough" is close enough. We tell them on day one of Basic Indoc (and every day thereafter) how important it is to learn their callouts, flows and profiles. Twenty-one days later, they're still arguing with us that they have the callouts down "pretty well." In our program, they don't even go to the simulator until they've spent 13 days in the procedures trainer, and we still have students who struggle to get ready for the sim.
We've discussed this amongst ourselves and think there are many issues at work here: (1) Maybe the younger generation just has a sense of entitlement. I know I sound like an old man here, but there really is a perceptible difference in work ethic from young pilots today and new pilots just four years ago. One of my most senior ground instructors mentioned that it's just different this time around.
(2) The industry has driven the good people away: The last four years have not been kind to the airline industry. Maybe today's best and brightest have decided to go to medical school instead of pursuing their real dream of aviation. I live in the midwest and I think everyone around here knows someone who used to fly for either Delta or Comair who has been devastated by what happened at Delta over the last few years. A friend of mine on furlough tried to get a state grant to get re-trained with a 737 type rating so he could apply to Southwest. In the past, other pilots have been able to do that. This time around, the state of Ohio denied his request by saying that basically they didn't think there would be enough flying jobs in the future to support him and that his retraining grant needed to be spent pursuing another career. It doesn't take long for word to get around that flying isn't exactly the positive career choice it used to be.
(3) The upcoming 1500-hour / ATP minimum requirement for all airline pilots might be scaring away good people. The ATP rule won't go into effect until 2013, so this is a perfect time to get an airline job. In two years of flying 85 hours a month, it'll be easy to beef up the logbook. This may be the last time in history that a guy with less than 1000 hours has a shot at an airline career. But I'm concerned that some pilots have only heard part of the story and have given up, thinking the rule is already in effect.
(4) Now that we're all wired and connected to the cloud, we just process information differently: My company is taking a hard look at our training procedures to see if we can present the information in a way that's more exciting for tech-savvy pilots. Unfortunately, many regional airlines see their training departments as expenses rather than investments, so there's not exactly an open checkbook for new training initiatives.
(5) Economic hard times have made it difficult for instrument pilots to stay proficient if they're paying for their time themselves. I'll be honest; I don't know if I could have afforded to get all my ratings in today's fuel environment. I paid between $50 and $85 an hour to rent most of my training planes, and I struggled to do that. That was when avgas was about $1.50 a gallon. Throw in reduced hours at work or downright unemployment, and staying proficient takes a back seat. We're seeing a lot of people coming in the door who haven't touched an airplane for three years!
(6) No one is getting commercial pilots' licenses any more. The FAA will tell you that the number of commercial pilots licenses issued has plummeted in the last three years. It is only a fraction of what it was four years ago. That means that the regionals are going to be competing for a smaller and smaller pool of pilots. When that happens, the quality of the candidate pool remaining quickly drops.
Everyone on the inside of the industry sees it, but none of us knows exactly what "it" is yet. I personally think it's a combination of all the above factors.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but we are working hard to find one.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,055
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great post.
Seems to me a deeper problem is that these fellah's soon will be running the game.
Thought it was just me getting older and crustier. But even one or two of what I calls the 'young' uns' are starting to play hell about the quality of "crew", out of the trees we have to work with.
Ayup!; 'tis a puzzle indeed.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,055
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A conundrum.
Of the highest water. As said, it's a puzzle. But I agree with the concerns of the first poster.
I have seen 3 big and a couple of smaller “bubbles” of golden times for pilots. The classic was 1989 of course, house prices sky high, aviation booming, jobs everywhere, then Whoof, all gone, big recession. All change, tickets please.
The current environment 'feels' a bit like that time; bit too good, bit too much choice and a lot more 'one eyed' expectation from the all parties concerned.
Unless you're a complete 'aerosexual' flying is, these days pretty much seen as a 'non glamor', no public comprehension profession. There certainly are better lives to be had, better wages, better conditions, more time at home, etc. etc. If you love it, no problem, but if you have been brought up in the 'modern' era, where 1 or 2 choccy biscuits was a negotiation with Mum, rather than a hoped for concession for being a good lad, well there the problem begins.
There is list from not being able to fix a motor bike to 'easy exam passes', to the GPS and the demon automation out there, a mile long as to the reasons why. I dunno where to point the finger.
There is a problem and I worry that the guys with the skill and 'passion' to fix it up, will not exist within the next few years.
I do know one thing, the air is unforgiving. Mummy will not and cannot save you when it's truly 'game on'; and, until the concept of immortality is fully understood by junior pilots nothing will change, except the body count.
The hours are long, the tasks can be deadly, the pressures are still there, unchanged since Pontious.
The short answer, no idea. For the long answer, read the threads here for a snapshot. For some, it's wonderful, for others it's a confused mess.
For me – dinner time.
I have seen 3 big and a couple of smaller “bubbles” of golden times for pilots. The classic was 1989 of course, house prices sky high, aviation booming, jobs everywhere, then Whoof, all gone, big recession. All change, tickets please.
The current environment 'feels' a bit like that time; bit too good, bit too much choice and a lot more 'one eyed' expectation from the all parties concerned.
Unless you're a complete 'aerosexual' flying is, these days pretty much seen as a 'non glamor', no public comprehension profession. There certainly are better lives to be had, better wages, better conditions, more time at home, etc. etc. If you love it, no problem, but if you have been brought up in the 'modern' era, where 1 or 2 choccy biscuits was a negotiation with Mum, rather than a hoped for concession for being a good lad, well there the problem begins.
There is list from not being able to fix a motor bike to 'easy exam passes', to the GPS and the demon automation out there, a mile long as to the reasons why. I dunno where to point the finger.
There is a problem and I worry that the guys with the skill and 'passion' to fix it up, will not exist within the next few years.
I do know one thing, the air is unforgiving. Mummy will not and cannot save you when it's truly 'game on'; and, until the concept of immortality is fully understood by junior pilots nothing will change, except the body count.
The hours are long, the tasks can be deadly, the pressures are still there, unchanged since Pontious.
The short answer, no idea. For the long answer, read the threads here for a snapshot. For some, it's wonderful, for others it's a confused mess.
For me – dinner time.
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
1 Post
It's called "pay peanuts, get monkeys". The US regionals have been riding their luck in that regard for way too long now, with any luck it will be about to bite them in the ass.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm buzzing in with answer number 2.
I would love to fly for REX, but why even consider it when I get paid substantially more in maintenance! At present, only AME, in supervisory role, earning $80k base, working Monday to friday, and a free Uni degree thrown in. Far cheaper and more satisfying to buy your own aircraft, and enjoy flying. Still instructing part time as i actually enjoy that too.
If Rex or another employer that offers regional kind of flying, for similar money, I'll be there tomorrow. At the moment I can't justify the cost of upgrading to MECIR to land a job paying less than half I get now. And yet, I have no desire to get a jet job. Been in too many jump seats to realise watching the autopilot all day is not my kind of flying.
I would love to fly for REX, but why even consider it when I get paid substantially more in maintenance! At present, only AME, in supervisory role, earning $80k base, working Monday to friday, and a free Uni degree thrown in. Far cheaper and more satisfying to buy your own aircraft, and enjoy flying. Still instructing part time as i actually enjoy that too.
If Rex or another employer that offers regional kind of flying, for similar money, I'll be there tomorrow. At the moment I can't justify the cost of upgrading to MECIR to land a job paying less than half I get now. And yet, I have no desire to get a jet job. Been in too many jump seats to realise watching the autopilot all day is not my kind of flying.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 51
Posts: 931
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm almost with you there Ultralights. Not very far behind you on pay either....and i only bash car bodies around.
I'd also be happy with a gig on SAAB's with REX, even night freighting, as I'm a night owl anyway. But like you say, the pay they offer doesn't even come close to being lucrative for me to go and finish my tickets. anything much bigger than the saab wouldn't be much fun.....we can leave the boings and scarebuses to those that think thats fun.
Heck even my former apprentice (finished his time in Dec) picked himself up a job recently....55k for a first year tradesman, pretty good.
I often wonder if these smaller regionals realised how many guys are out there that would be willing for a mid-life career change and would stick around 10-15 years or more for the right sort of dollars, instead of them having to retrain their entire pilot base every 2-3 years.
I'd also be happy with a gig on SAAB's with REX, even night freighting, as I'm a night owl anyway. But like you say, the pay they offer doesn't even come close to being lucrative for me to go and finish my tickets. anything much bigger than the saab wouldn't be much fun.....we can leave the boings and scarebuses to those that think thats fun.
Heck even my former apprentice (finished his time in Dec) picked himself up a job recently....55k for a first year tradesman, pretty good.
I often wonder if these smaller regionals realised how many guys are out there that would be willing for a mid-life career change and would stick around 10-15 years or more for the right sort of dollars, instead of them having to retrain their entire pilot base every 2-3 years.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: location loaction
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is an interesting thread. I dont care about the money at all, I'm currently on 50k per year and cant stand my job. I work at an airport and stand watching the jets, regionals etc depart all day long wishing to christ I could do the same. I have all that is required by means of licenses and ratings but no hours to match.
Kids these days have to realise when you start in aviation your a small fish in a big pond. I can honestly say if I was successful I would go into it with wide eyes and a shut mouth, soak up all the experience from the guy in the left seat and work as hard as possible for the opportunity given to me.
And I'm only 29
rocket
Kids these days have to realise when you start in aviation your a small fish in a big pond. I can honestly say if I was successful I would go into it with wide eyes and a shut mouth, soak up all the experience from the guy in the left seat and work as hard as possible for the opportunity given to me.
And I'm only 29
rocket
I have all that is required by means of licenses and ratings but no hours to match.
you start in aviation your a small fish in a big pond.
I just hope that we never get to the stage of the US. Sadly there are plenty of guys around who 'just want to fly'. Forgetting that in doing so they make it all that much harder to get that high paying job later in their careers as it won't be around anymore.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep first thing I though when reading that post was to go and get some experience...anywhere...it's pretty much what every one of us has had to do...anyway...
Interesting post...not sure why anyone has to ask the question about why the standards are dropping though...one poster mentioned "pay peanuts get monkeys"...that about sums it up. The industry is choking itself...I know of one pilot who has made it his business to go out of his way to tell people not to become a pilot...not so sure I disagree with him. There are other posts on this site which ask the question about integrity in the industry...many question the outlay for the reward...in the States it seems being furloughed is par for the course...back of the clock flights, it isn't the healthiest of lifestyles, not so good for partners and families, I've lost count of birthdays, anniverseries, school plays, christmasses that I've missed.
Crap pay at commencement (not uncommon for many industries) and crap conditions...if you're fortunate perhaps in the last 10 to 15 years of your career it will start to show some reward...by that time statistics show that you will probably be divorced.
I find it very difficult to be enthusiastic to anyone who asks me about a career as a pilot. Management continually reneg on terms and conditions...you have to fight for every entitlement...
I am fortunate in that I enjoy my present job and love the flying...It is interesting to note that in the last round of job offers (5 pilots for turboprops) none were under 30, average age was 38...in terms of experience we are getting to the bottom again. One of those recruits left after 4 weeks due the fact that the company didn't comply with the terms under which he was employed...we often interview but get no takers when they find out what the terms and conditions are...and yet still the company persists in offering these same T&C's...take it or leave it, so they leave it and the company still seems to not "get it"?
I find it really very easy to understand why younger people do not want to be involved in this industry...every time the CEO's appear on the TV saying how "well paid the pilots are and yet I must drive this pay and these conditions down" they are driving another nail into their industry.
My belief is that the industry will look more and more to developing countries for their flight crew...if you're smart you will get some training experience and go overseas and train them...same thing happens in the maritime industry, it's called flag of convenience.
Why are the standards dropping?? Can't believe anyone would even have to ask that question!!!
Interesting post...not sure why anyone has to ask the question about why the standards are dropping though...one poster mentioned "pay peanuts get monkeys"...that about sums it up. The industry is choking itself...I know of one pilot who has made it his business to go out of his way to tell people not to become a pilot...not so sure I disagree with him. There are other posts on this site which ask the question about integrity in the industry...many question the outlay for the reward...in the States it seems being furloughed is par for the course...back of the clock flights, it isn't the healthiest of lifestyles, not so good for partners and families, I've lost count of birthdays, anniverseries, school plays, christmasses that I've missed.
Crap pay at commencement (not uncommon for many industries) and crap conditions...if you're fortunate perhaps in the last 10 to 15 years of your career it will start to show some reward...by that time statistics show that you will probably be divorced.
I find it very difficult to be enthusiastic to anyone who asks me about a career as a pilot. Management continually reneg on terms and conditions...you have to fight for every entitlement...
I am fortunate in that I enjoy my present job and love the flying...It is interesting to note that in the last round of job offers (5 pilots for turboprops) none were under 30, average age was 38...in terms of experience we are getting to the bottom again. One of those recruits left after 4 weeks due the fact that the company didn't comply with the terms under which he was employed...we often interview but get no takers when they find out what the terms and conditions are...and yet still the company persists in offering these same T&C's...take it or leave it, so they leave it and the company still seems to not "get it"?
I find it really very easy to understand why younger people do not want to be involved in this industry...every time the CEO's appear on the TV saying how "well paid the pilots are and yet I must drive this pay and these conditions down" they are driving another nail into their industry.
My belief is that the industry will look more and more to developing countries for their flight crew...if you're smart you will get some training experience and go overseas and train them...same thing happens in the maritime industry, it's called flag of convenience.
Why are the standards dropping?? Can't believe anyone would even have to ask that question!!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Brisbane, Qld
Age: 48
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I gave up a good job two years ago to start flight training at the ripe age of 34, however as soon as I started training it dawned on me what I was giving up...and reading all the comments on here didn't help.
In the end I got back into my career and, 12 months later, I'm pushing $180k (I'm an accountant btw) living in Bris. I still want to fly but I realise I want to fly for the enjoyment so I'll just stick to getting a PPL and flying for fun (there's always flight simulator!
).
Its a real shame that the aviation industry is like this when you consider the risk that pilots and pax take in flying a 100 ton piece of metal from city to city. I got on a Jetstar flight about 3 weeks ago and got placed in the front row (my flight the prev night had been cancelled) - the cockpit door was open and the couple next to me got the shock of their lives when the FO looked back and appeared to be aged 12!! I spoke to them about the cadet scheme and low hour pilots etc etc (this is after the latest probs in the news re cadets and making mistakes) and assured them that all FOs go through a rigorous training process as well as check to line - that sort of eased them a bit however I cetainly wasn't that confident.
Still...it was a bumpy flight due turbulence however the landing was one fo the best I've experienced so well done to the crew. Having said that...I don't think I could put my family on a Jetstar flight - I ALWAYS fly virgin now.
Either way, I sincerely hope they sort this $hit out for the sake of pilots and pax - unfortunately the higher up in the company you go, the less of a $hit you give for the people out on the line no matter what crap you spin. At the end of the day, everyone's out for themselves.
In the end I got back into my career and, 12 months later, I'm pushing $180k (I'm an accountant btw) living in Bris. I still want to fly but I realise I want to fly for the enjoyment so I'll just stick to getting a PPL and flying for fun (there's always flight simulator!
). Its a real shame that the aviation industry is like this when you consider the risk that pilots and pax take in flying a 100 ton piece of metal from city to city. I got on a Jetstar flight about 3 weeks ago and got placed in the front row (my flight the prev night had been cancelled) - the cockpit door was open and the couple next to me got the shock of their lives when the FO looked back and appeared to be aged 12!!
I spoke to them about the cadet scheme and low hour pilots etc etc (this is after the latest probs in the news re cadets and making mistakes) and assured them that all FOs go through a rigorous training process as well as check to line - that sort of eased them a bit however I cetainly wasn't that confident. Still...it was a bumpy flight due turbulence however the landing was one fo the best I've experienced so well done to the crew. Having said that...I don't think I could put my family on a Jetstar flight - I ALWAYS fly virgin now.
Either way, I sincerely hope they sort this $hit out for the sake of pilots and pax - unfortunately the higher up in the company you go, the less of a $hit you give for the people out on the line no matter what crap you spin. At the end of the day, everyone's out for themselves.
ITW
Don't doubt that. It's the life security that is the issue with your job 
rocket
You should care about the money, the wishing to christ doesn't pay the mortgage. Also, not meaning to sound harsh, but what position are you in to lecture new starts in aviation, when you are one yourself?
jas24zzk
Simple fact of the matter is with all the stary eyed wannabes willing to pay for a RHS gig, T&Cs will continue to drop. Btw, you sound like you would 'settle' for a night freight gig. I'll let you in on a little secret, night freight is aviations best kept secret.
j3
Can't beat the job security!
rocket
You should care about the money, the wishing to christ doesn't pay the mortgage. Also, not meaning to sound harsh, but what position are you in to lecture new starts in aviation, when you are one yourself?
jas24zzk
Simple fact of the matter is with all the stary eyed wannabes willing to pay for a RHS gig, T&Cs will continue to drop. Btw, you sound like you would 'settle' for a night freight gig. I'll let you in on a little secret, night freight is aviations best kept secret.
j3
Last edited by j3pipercub; 5th Jan 2012 at 04:02.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Under the sea
Posts: 493
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you wonder whether you should be an airline pilot, military pilot, pilot dont bother. You should take up something else.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 51
Posts: 931
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
j3pipercub
Simple fact of the matter is with all the stary eyed wannabes willing to pay for a RHS gig, T&Cs will continue to drop.
The other way to look at it, is to consider what the resultant of dog eat dog really is.
Btw, you sound like you would 'settle' for a night freight gig. I'll let you in on a little secret, night freight is aviations best kept secret.
I recently changed jobs, and had to go through this whole process. They made an offer, (verbally of course) and I put down in front of them what I wanted. 2 companies said no, 1 said yes, and the other 2 have since reconsidered. DOPES
The stary eyed ones, most the kids I feel very sorry for. Their parents, despite having been kicked and spat at by management for eon's have seriously failed them in educating/guiding them on Industrial relations and how not to be behind the rest of the crowd (have we got a soapbox icon here?)
hmmm time to rest my injured hand (gotta love workcover
)
As a youngster it has always been my dream to become a pilot but isnt sure if its worth the hassle. The problem i see with being a pilot is it really worth paying all that money $60k+ to get a $30k job in GA. Then after spending at least 5 years working your way from a little Cessna 172, to a large multi engine turbo prop you might be lucky and get a jet job at Jetstar on $85k per year.
As a part time job (im still at high school) i work at a concrete truck company driving forklifts and bobcats. The the guy who owns the business asked me what i wanted to do when i finished high school. I told him that i would like to become a pilot. He just said im wasting my time. He said why would you want to enter a dog eats dog industry when you could work for him and drive concrete trucks for $85k a year and he will pay for my Heavy Rigid truck licence training
. It just doesnt make sense sometimes.
The other problem i see is job security. Dad has been at Qantas for 35 years and he still worries about what Qantas plans to do with his job in the coming months, whether he should do LWOP, what airlines in the Middle East would be good if he does lose his job.
Being a pilot does look like a good job but it just doesnt seem to be a good career at the moment. Hopefully things will pick up in the future.
In the mean time i will be doing some work experience with BHP next week. Might see how that goes.
As a part time job (im still at high school) i work at a concrete truck company driving forklifts and bobcats. The the guy who owns the business asked me what i wanted to do when i finished high school. I told him that i would like to become a pilot. He just said im wasting my time. He said why would you want to enter a dog eats dog industry when you could work for him and drive concrete trucks for $85k a year and he will pay for my Heavy Rigid truck licence training
. It just doesnt make sense sometimes. The other problem i see is job security. Dad has been at Qantas for 35 years and he still worries about what Qantas plans to do with his job in the coming months, whether he should do LWOP, what airlines in the Middle East would be good if he does lose his job.
Being a pilot does look like a good job but it just doesnt seem to be a good career at the moment. Hopefully things will pick up in the future.
In the mean time i will be doing some work experience with BHP next week. Might see how that goes.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: on earth
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Really I sometimes think pilots are the actual blame of the industry. To much of the downsides and not enough of the upsides. Yea you may make 20k a year for a while and yea the living conditions might not be well, and once again yea you may be starving at the end of the day, but I can tell you really any job out there is going to start out low, it may not be 20k low but I can tell you I look forward to flying jets. After reading through all of this and my dream is to be an airline pilot (earning my ppl right now) i still dont think you all respect your job. A couple years down the road I can almost bet you are in decent financial shape and you will look back and not regret what you and went through. Every one is always saying the grass is greener on the other side but in reality its not common. Do what you enjoy and love every minute of it because the next day you may not have that chance again.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: dessert island
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been in the industry for decades now, progressed very quickly (lucky).
But I will say this - it's not the same as what I thought it would be. It's not as good as what I dreamt of as a child.
Sadly, pretty much every day a small piece of me wishes I chose the alternative career.
Sure, life could be a lot worse. Just not 100% fulfilled. Is anybody?
Senior Cathay Pacific captains still fight against the degradation of their T&C's.... Hell, Qantas pilots were locked out of work recently. Jetstar?
don't even go there.
Reg Ansett ran an airline the way all pilots LOVED. A gazzillion different aircraft types (progression)... Awesome crew meals.... Barely flying 30 hours a month; I remember some pilots found it hard to remain current! The money was truly unreal! BUT! This is when fuel cost was a little less than a p!ss in the ocean, airfares were sky high, with a huge proportion of travelers in business class, and general operating costs were lower.
My advice? Earn your money elsewhere. Fly for fun; you'll never get rid of the bug, no matter how hard you try!
But I will say this - it's not the same as what I thought it would be. It's not as good as what I dreamt of as a child.
Sadly, pretty much every day a small piece of me wishes I chose the alternative career.
Sure, life could be a lot worse. Just not 100% fulfilled. Is anybody?
Senior Cathay Pacific captains still fight against the degradation of their T&C's.... Hell, Qantas pilots were locked out of work recently. Jetstar?
don't even go there.Reg Ansett ran an airline the way all pilots LOVED. A gazzillion different aircraft types (progression)... Awesome crew meals.... Barely flying 30 hours a month; I remember some pilots found it hard to remain current! The money was truly unreal! BUT! This is when fuel cost was a little less than a p!ss in the ocean, airfares were sky high, with a huge proportion of travelers in business class, and general operating costs were lower.
My advice? Earn your money elsewhere. Fly for fun; you'll never get rid of the bug, no matter how hard you try!
From my experiences people who are unhappy/bitter at the aviation industry because they got into it for the wrong reasons.
The ONLY reason you should become an airline pilot is because you actually like flying aeroplanes and enjoy aviation.
If deep down you want to be a pilot because:
1.You think you will be rich
2.You think you pull all glamours because you're a pilot
3.You think that the job is glamorous and you want to parade around in a uniform with a bunch of glamours entail.
4.Your parents want you to do it
5.You're a propeller head but don't really like flying or hard work
Then you are going to be bitter and disappointed. Most people who get angry at the industry fall into one of the above categories. Whenever I met someone who starts up with the aviation sucks routine I usually ask 'so why did you get into it' and usually the answer lies in one of the above.
If you like flying planes then go for it, otherwise go get a normal job and leave flying up to those who want to be there.
Not really it took me and most guys I work with more than 5 years to earn more than 50K. I had been flying professionally for 6.5 years before I got more than 50K.
Given that the graduate starting salaries are around 40-50K for year one you don't fly to be rich that's for sure.
The ONLY reason you should become an airline pilot is because you actually like flying aeroplanes and enjoy aviation.
If deep down you want to be a pilot because:
1.You think you will be rich
2.You think you pull all glamours because you're a pilot
3.You think that the job is glamorous and you want to parade around in a uniform with a bunch of glamours entail.
4.Your parents want you to do it
5.You're a propeller head but don't really like flying or hard work
Then you are going to be bitter and disappointed. Most people who get angry at the industry fall into one of the above categories. Whenever I met someone who starts up with the aviation sucks routine I usually ask 'so why did you get into it' and usually the answer lies in one of the above.
If you like flying planes then go for it, otherwise go get a normal job and leave flying up to those who want to be there.
A couple years down the road I can almost bet you are in decent financial shape and you will look back and not regret what you and went through.
Given that the graduate starting salaries are around 40-50K for year one you don't fly to be rich that's for sure.