Pilot survives crash into Lake Hume
6) CASA will attend to this matter without bringing up old mates who have flown without licences or registrations and got away with it. (yes they have skeletons).
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: ChCh NZ
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, from a GA cowboy.
Fun is fun, - but would you go and beat up some stranger's boat, and recklessly at that, without a few beers in you ?
He is not a teenager, give the man some credit. He would not have done that if he was sober...
I am thinking 2 litres of that fuel may not be enough to fool the alcohol testing.
He seems to be a bit of a character, who could keep a straight face and come out with the 500' comment ?
People like that make the rest of us appear like angels.
Mr Ferris Wheel may even be smiling.
Fun is fun, - but would you go and beat up some stranger's boat, and recklessly at that, without a few beers in you ?
He is not a teenager, give the man some credit. He would not have done that if he was sober...
I am thinking 2 litres of that fuel may not be enough to fool the alcohol testing.
He seems to be a bit of a character, who could keep a straight face and come out with the 500' comment ?
People like that make the rest of us appear like angels.
Mr Ferris Wheel may even be smiling.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's a pretty old fashioned way to crash an aircraft.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/1357105...evelflying.pdf
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/24316/a...601509_001.pdf
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/1357105...evelflying.pdf
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/24316/a...601509_001.pdf
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
The downside to this is, in the public eye, a certain amount of dung flung sticks.
About the only folk who avoid the dung flung here are the airlines, everything else with a propellor from a RFDS B200 and smaller will attract the stigma of light aircraft.....and all those who fly them are cowboys.
We all know this is far from the truth, but that will be a perception that is in the wild and uncontrolled.
What sort of nutcase 60 year old, who had an expired Student certificate and an unregistered plane would fly it, anywhere near public view, let alone buzzing strangers. Unfortunately this moron has probably been breeding some of those other morons we all compain about. We are not taking them out of the food chain soon enough.
Once upon a time aviation was a bit harder to participate in if you were an uneducated bogan. Now it seems that is not the case. Not only do the airlines have a bogan problem, but the various flying organisations do too. Boganus Moronus.
About the only folk who avoid the dung flung here are the airlines, everything else with a propellor from a RFDS B200 and smaller will attract the stigma of light aircraft.....and all those who fly them are cowboys.
We all know this is far from the truth, but that will be a perception that is in the wild and uncontrolled.
What sort of nutcase 60 year old, who had an expired Student certificate and an unregistered plane would fly it, anywhere near public view, let alone buzzing strangers. Unfortunately this moron has probably been breeding some of those other morons we all compain about. We are not taking them out of the food chain soon enough.
Once upon a time aviation was a bit harder to participate in if you were an uneducated bogan. Now it seems that is not the case. Not only do the airlines have a bogan problem, but the various flying organisations do too. Boganus Moronus.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,055
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thing is-
At the end of the street is a great little park, wrapped around a cricket pitch, no dogs on the pitch. No problem, everyone with a dog off a leash complies; but, every now and then some mutt decides that the rules don't apply “their mutt” , complaints to Council are made and so; enter the Rangers. Why is it a simple, good system has been stuffed by idiots?. We then all suffer the 'dog off leash fines' ($250), even though "we never dun it Guv". It's just the only way the Council can react, their Rangers given no option. It is the law, equal to all.
Now the Ag boys have done a fantastic job, almost loosely supervised self admin. Great manual, good leadership, proper compliance, great results and (I hear) exporting safety 'systems' (for wont of a better expression or knowledge). I say great stuff, good job and Bravo.
GA struggles along, surviving on sheer grit on occasion. No great strides forward, but existing.
The RAA is a brilliant idea, it should be as 'bullet proof' as the Ag. Boys. But, alas every time I read of a prang on Pprune, it's the RAA.
How long before those hard won freedoms are lost, because some dope let his dog onto the cricket pitch. Not too long I'd bet. Do not force CASA to act, or into making a decision, because they will. It can only end in tears.
Selah.
No, not a RAA bash at all.
Now the Ag boys have done a fantastic job, almost loosely supervised self admin. Great manual, good leadership, proper compliance, great results and (I hear) exporting safety 'systems' (for wont of a better expression or knowledge). I say great stuff, good job and Bravo.
GA struggles along, surviving on sheer grit on occasion. No great strides forward, but existing.
The RAA is a brilliant idea, it should be as 'bullet proof' as the Ag. Boys. But, alas every time I read of a prang on Pprune, it's the RAA.
How long before those hard won freedoms are lost, because some dope let his dog onto the cricket pitch. Not too long I'd bet. Do not force CASA to act, or into making a decision, because they will. It can only end in tears.
Selah.
No, not a RAA bash at all.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: dans un cercle dont le centre est eveywhere et circumfernce n'est nulle part
Posts: 2,606
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not let us all know who you are talking about, if its true surely nothing can be done to you?
One example, (for instance), doesn't work for CASA, he is part of a protected CASA compliant organisation.
Despite your contributions to PPRune, you don't really have a clue do you?
Join Date: May 2011
Location: in the country
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Typical aeroclub ol'boy attitude. They think they're above the law.
Holbrook Ultralight club has 100+ members! Surely someone there knew he was unlicenced. And as usual, no one has the balls to front this bloke about it.
And I bet when the investigators come they will whinge about him then....until they are asked to go on record, then you hear the sound of crikets.
Holbrook Ultralight club has 100+ members! Surely someone there knew he was unlicenced. And as usual, no one has the balls to front this bloke about it.
And I bet when the investigators come they will whinge about him then....until they are asked to go on record, then you hear the sound of crikets.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wentworth
Age: 59
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kharon, you're losing your credibility with the dribble that slops on to your shoes, or you just have a reading problem, or a memory problem.
I don't accept that RAAus can walk away from this person, even though he currently has no relationship with any formal aviation group, because the system which produced him and the aircraft was RAAus.
However to take the leap and have a quick bash, while adding a footnote that you aren't bashing shows there's more than one idiot around.
The crash statistics between RA and GA as we know are much the same.
If you want a GA parallel to this incident, go back a couple of Christmases ago to the low flying GA pilot who killed himself in front of his neighbour.
This dumb activity ultimately affects all of us because the public perception doesn't go deep enough to identify different facets of aviation except as someone else said, that these events are not occurring in airliners.
I don't accept that RAAus can walk away from this person, even though he currently has no relationship with any formal aviation group, because the system which produced him and the aircraft was RAAus.
However to take the leap and have a quick bash, while adding a footnote that you aren't bashing shows there's more than one idiot around.
The crash statistics between RA and GA as we know are much the same.
If you want a GA parallel to this incident, go back a couple of Christmases ago to the low flying GA pilot who killed himself in front of his neighbour.
This dumb activity ultimately affects all of us because the public perception doesn't go deep enough to identify different facets of aviation except as someone else said, that these events are not occurring in airliners.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: ChCh NZ
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do we know why he crashed ?
As I understand it the aircraft did not have a wirestrike so we are left with mechanical failure, fuel exhaustion or pilot error.
Low flying aside, the pilot still has to explain how he damaged the machine.
He would have already taken a financial 'hit' there. This is even before CASA starts on him.
As I understand it the aircraft did not have a wirestrike so we are left with mechanical failure, fuel exhaustion or pilot error.
Low flying aside, the pilot still has to explain how he damaged the machine.
He would have already taken a financial 'hit' there. This is even before CASA starts on him.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Supposedly hit the wing on the water one of the early articles said.
He never had a chance that man. Didn't matter how many times we collectively warned him, he still continued to do dumb things to the very end. He was even under investigation from CASA at the time for low flying events. Time and time again he was told, told off, warned, advised, yelled at, banned, instructed etc and he still kept on going, finding new airports to fly from, new clubs to join, new people to hang out with and buying new aircraft. Peer pressure did not work in this instance so I don't accept the old "someone should have said something to him," because it doesn't guarantee a result.
If you want a GA parallel to this incident, go back a couple of Christmases ago to the low flying GA pilot who killed himself in front of his neighbour.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Relax everyone. It's been discovered the pilot is ex Cathay Pacific. He has been exonerated from all charges. The speed boat driver driver has been arrested for being too close to an aircraft whilst not being the holder of a current valid ASIC card, and his son is in juvenile detention for wearing floaties which were not to CASA's satisfaction. Investigations are underway to establish whether the dam operators allowed the water level to infringe the local airspace. CASA spokesman Richard Cranium stated that if found in breach the dam authorities could be fined up to 50 demerit points per litre of water found to be in breach.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It gets better! He was unlicensed and the aircraft wasn't registered 
The Border Mail - Pilot 'Had No Licence'
The Border Mail - Pilot 'Had No Licence'
Last edited by dkaarma; 5th Jan 2012 at 23:17. Reason: fixed hyperlink
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A Sapphire should be good for 80 knots or so.
I did laugh when I read that the boy waved to the pilot and he waved back!
The BIGGEST mistake the pilot made in this incident was talking to the police and the media. NO COMMENT would be the most appropriate response in this instance until his lawyer arrived.
With all this going on, he's worried about his missing ASI and ALT 
I did laugh when I read that the boy waved to the pilot and he waved back!
The BIGGEST mistake the pilot made in this incident was talking to the police and the media. NO COMMENT would be the most appropriate response in this instance until his lawyer arrived.
Mr Bogaard yesterday said his memory was scratchy on what happened on Monday but was ruing the loss of the ultralight’s instrument panel.
“But I’m more concerned with the instrument panel. “I think it has been stolen after the crash, it was there in the water but no one knows where it has gone.”
“But I’m more concerned with the instrument panel. “I think it has been stolen after the crash, it was there in the water but no one knows where it has gone.”
If the bloke isn't licenced and the aircraft is not registered then this bloke is not a pilot, nor even a student pilot.
He is simply a member of the general public who appears to have decided to perform multiple allegedly illegal acts.
The RAA or any organisation like an aero club has nothing to do with it unless they knowingly, willingly or negligently facilitated his flight. Any time I hire an aircraft, even from my own club, I have to present licence and a current medical.
He is simply a member of the general public who appears to have decided to perform multiple allegedly illegal acts.
The RAA or any organisation like an aero club has nothing to do with it unless they knowingly, willingly or negligently facilitated his flight. Any time I hire an aircraft, even from my own club, I have to present licence and a current medical.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Wallsofchina,
Time to take off the rose tinted glasses for a minute. We could all sit here and quote statistics, mind you RAA never release any unless it is a certain statistic that suits their cause, but none the less take the emotion out of it for a minute.
In the GA community, where there is a large sector of commercial operations where there is a job to be done, there are accidents, Ag prangs of late spring to mind. There are some PVT flights such as the one in CQ recently (no idea but I suspect VFR into IMC) and there are helo prangs for EMS or other ops, so lets say there are plenty of accidents in the last ten years.
Move to RAA and of late the number of deaths and non fatal accidents that make it into the news has seemed to have risen, and the ones that spring to mind are generally from really stupid actions. And I mean really stupid. Everything from RAAus Jabiru's departing Inverell into the dark and IMC heading east south east
to folk dam busting. Yes that Jab flight is real, presumed safe arrival.
So while there is a big difference between say a low level run up a scenic river in the remote NW of WA and buzzing skiiers on a popular SE Oz Dam, you would have to ask, where is the majority of cowboy stuff coming from? It seems to be coming from RAA folk, and when you weed out of the RAAus membership all the retired CPL and ATPL folk, which cuts the numbers down a bit, and I suspect they are not the ones doing the majority of cowboy antics, it would paint a far different picture.
So not just comparing apples with apples, lets compare the same variety of apples. The picture gets worse.
I am not employed as an aviation statistician, but I had a founding role in RV Flight Safety which we put together as a result of the FAA saying...... "fix it or we will do it for you" in response to a far higher than acceptable accident rate for Exp/AB aircraft.
Time to take off the rose tinted glasses for a minute. We could all sit here and quote statistics, mind you RAA never release any unless it is a certain statistic that suits their cause, but none the less take the emotion out of it for a minute.
In the GA community, where there is a large sector of commercial operations where there is a job to be done, there are accidents, Ag prangs of late spring to mind. There are some PVT flights such as the one in CQ recently (no idea but I suspect VFR into IMC) and there are helo prangs for EMS or other ops, so lets say there are plenty of accidents in the last ten years.
Move to RAA and of late the number of deaths and non fatal accidents that make it into the news has seemed to have risen, and the ones that spring to mind are generally from really stupid actions. And I mean really stupid. Everything from RAAus Jabiru's departing Inverell into the dark and IMC heading east south east
to folk dam busting. Yes that Jab flight is real, presumed safe arrival.So while there is a big difference between say a low level run up a scenic river in the remote NW of WA and buzzing skiiers on a popular SE Oz Dam, you would have to ask, where is the majority of cowboy stuff coming from? It seems to be coming from RAA folk, and when you weed out of the RAAus membership all the retired CPL and ATPL folk, which cuts the numbers down a bit, and I suspect they are not the ones doing the majority of cowboy antics, it would paint a far different picture.
So not just comparing apples with apples, lets compare the same variety of apples. The picture gets worse.
I am not employed as an aviation statistician, but I had a founding role in RV Flight Safety which we put together as a result of the FAA saying...... "fix it or we will do it for you" in response to a far higher than acceptable accident rate for Exp/AB aircraft.
Part of this project I sat down for a day or two and poured through every NTSB accident report as well as ATSB reports for the previous 10 years, looking at the basic causes for the "higher" rate of accidents. When the VFR into IMC prangs were removed because those folk would have done that in a C172 or A36 anyway, there was an alarming trend. The bottom line was there were very few that could be traced to EXP/AB faults and even then a fuel line fault did not cause the fatality, it was the stall / spin into a paddock they should have landed in anyway. The VAST MAJORITY of the accidents that were identifiable and preventable and the target zone of the FAA proved to be cowboy antics.
I am pleased to report that the Exp/AB folk in Australia have a significantly better record, I do not recall now but it was like 5 or 10 or more times less accidents per aircraft registered.
This survey DID NOT include RAA, as the data is not available.
By the way the name rvflightsafety.org was the creative component of the only Aussie on the committee
.
So what did this prove to us....if the accident rate was to be fixed, all we had to do was kill off the cowboys, which they were doing themselves but not at a fast enough rate, and the FAA were not happy as it was.
The question was asked why the cowboys? It seems that the more adventurous folk who play cowboy antics are the ones who like to live on the edge, who think rules are for others, and it was their God given right to have the freedom to do as they please. The rebels as it were. They also seemed to be the ones that if they were in aviation they would be flying a RV/Thorpe/Lancair or something that was a high performance machine. Piper Cubs were not for them.
The more conservative of us, while adventurous etc, we far more disciplined. This was evident from the folk who stepped forward to form RV flight safety dot org. They were passionate folk, but most were ex or current military, airline or NetJets pilots, a few of us were private, and we had a good mix, but all very common philosophy to safety. So what we had was a culture of fun loving and adventurous, but at the same time safe operational types, and there was a dark and evil sub culture....who mostly made up the stats.
So back to RAAus. Their challenge is some how stamp out the "dark eveil sub-culture" who seem to think they can be cowboys and get away with it. They fail to see they are dangerous. And that is the problem. I have mates who are ex jet fighter pilots who could do buzz jobs like that and way better all day ong in their Yak or even a Saphire UL, and not be any more dangerous than a Cessna overhead at 500'.....but I am not one of them, and nor are most of the RAA or GA community. Fortunately, most of us know this and refrain.
The incident VH-XXX refers to is a classic case of Boganus Moronus. I am sure no matter what type he was flying his behaviour was in that sub-culture mentioned above.
So why is it the RAA have a much larger population of these cowboys? (this is not inflamatory questioning for wallsofchina)............For a start, most of the folk flying Gulfstreams or KingAirs are doing so for a different purpose. The folk most likely flying a FTDK/A36/PAXX and RV10's are also doing so for a different purpose. They have high capital investment, generally highly trained, and as a result their decission making is less cowboy like.
Step into the more sporty group, the typical RV group Aerobatic tourers, slight increase in risky activity but often higher captial outlay, and a high proportion of Airline or Military folk who want fun but well trained and careful operations. Bigger scope though for cowboys and as was found in the USA the results show this.
Now we get into the next group. The low cost cost to entry, be it GA or RAA, but most likely RAA as its cost to entry is far less. So where do you think the budding top guns of the Boganus Moronus species are going to wind up? And yes they can be 60 years old as well. This is why in my opinion RAA are most likely going to be the ones with the increasing problem. Their new Ops Manager is a really good operator, but heck what a job he has on his hands.
Despite what wallsofchina will say, this is not a slag off at them at all, this is just a summary of why I think they have a growing problem. Based on some genuine data analysis and learning from it, and a bit of common sense deduction.
I am pleased to report that the Exp/AB folk in Australia have a significantly better record, I do not recall now but it was like 5 or 10 or more times less accidents per aircraft registered.
This survey DID NOT include RAA, as the data is not available.
By the way the name rvflightsafety.org was the creative component of the only Aussie on the committee
.So what did this prove to us....if the accident rate was to be fixed, all we had to do was kill off the cowboys, which they were doing themselves but not at a fast enough rate, and the FAA were not happy as it was.
The question was asked why the cowboys? It seems that the more adventurous folk who play cowboy antics are the ones who like to live on the edge, who think rules are for others, and it was their God given right to have the freedom to do as they please. The rebels as it were. They also seemed to be the ones that if they were in aviation they would be flying a RV/Thorpe/Lancair or something that was a high performance machine. Piper Cubs were not for them.The more conservative of us, while adventurous etc, we far more disciplined. This was evident from the folk who stepped forward to form RV flight safety dot org. They were passionate folk, but most were ex or current military, airline or NetJets pilots, a few of us were private, and we had a good mix, but all very common philosophy to safety. So what we had was a culture of fun loving and adventurous, but at the same time safe operational types, and there was a dark and evil sub culture....who mostly made up the stats.
So back to RAAus. Their challenge is some how stamp out the "dark eveil sub-culture" who seem to think they can be cowboys and get away with it. They fail to see they are dangerous. And that is the problem. I have mates who are ex jet fighter pilots who could do buzz jobs like that and way better all day ong in their Yak or even a Saphire UL, and not be any more dangerous than a Cessna overhead at 500'.....but I am not one of them, and nor are most of the RAA or GA community. Fortunately, most of us know this and refrain.
The incident VH-XXX refers to is a classic case of Boganus Moronus. I am sure no matter what type he was flying his behaviour was in that sub-culture mentioned above.
So why is it the RAA have a much larger population of these cowboys? (this is not inflamatory questioning for wallsofchina)............For a start, most of the folk flying Gulfstreams or KingAirs are doing so for a different purpose. The folk most likely flying a FTDK/A36/PAXX and RV10's are also doing so for a different purpose. They have high capital investment, generally highly trained, and as a result their decission making is less cowboy like.
Step into the more sporty group, the typical RV group Aerobatic tourers, slight increase in risky activity but often higher captial outlay, and a high proportion of Airline or Military folk who want fun but well trained and careful operations. Bigger scope though for cowboys and as was found in the USA the results show this.
Now we get into the next group. The low cost cost to entry, be it GA or RAA, but most likely RAA as its cost to entry is far less. So where do you think the budding top guns of the Boganus Moronus species are going to wind up? And yes they can be 60 years old as well. This is why in my opinion RAA are most likely going to be the ones with the increasing problem. Their new Ops Manager is a really good operator, but heck what a job he has on his hands.
Despite what wallsofchina will say, this is not a slag off at them at all, this is just a summary of why I think they have a growing problem. Based on some genuine data analysis and learning from it, and a bit of common sense deduction.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Perth - Western Australia
Age: 75
Posts: 1,805
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One of the prime advantages of aircraft is that they are excellent items for rapidly removing the idiots from the gene pool. In this case, one has to wonder how this idiot actually got to 60 years of age without already killing himself?
QUOTE: “I’m not sure what happened — maybe it was a gust of wind or my engine failed"....
I was flying safely: Crash pilot - Local News - News - General - The Border Mail
One is reminded of that succinct epithet about how there are 3 types of people in the world - Those who make things happen; those who watch things happen; and those who wonder what happened!
The court transcripts are sure going to make some interesting reading. If he thinks he's out of pocket by a substantial amount about now; that'll be nothing compared to what he'll be out of pocket after the judge has cleaned him out.
Dozens of witnesses, clear photos, no registration, no licence, and an idiot "pilot" shooting his mouth off, giving bumbling, amateurish replies to reporters and Police, doesn't give him a leg to stand on.
I purposely put "pilot" in inverted commas, because he isn't worthy of being classed as a pilot, in every sense of the word.
QUOTE: “I’m not sure what happened — maybe it was a gust of wind or my engine failed"....
I was flying safely: Crash pilot - Local News - News - General - The Border Mail
One is reminded of that succinct epithet about how there are 3 types of people in the world - Those who make things happen; those who watch things happen; and those who wonder what happened!
The court transcripts are sure going to make some interesting reading. If he thinks he's out of pocket by a substantial amount about now; that'll be nothing compared to what he'll be out of pocket after the judge has cleaned him out.
Dozens of witnesses, clear photos, no registration, no licence, and an idiot "pilot" shooting his mouth off, giving bumbling, amateurish replies to reporters and Police, doesn't give him a leg to stand on.
I purposely put "pilot" in inverted commas, because he isn't worthy of being classed as a pilot, in every sense of the word.