JetGo Australia????
Perhaps they should use some of their spare time while they wait for casa improving their crap website - jet comfort at turboprop economies
Or pondering why an e145 style aircraft has never been successfully operated in oz...
Or pondering why an e145 style aircraft has never been successfully operated in oz...
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Grr,
You have made a really good statement and asked a very fair question concerning the limited success of 50 seat RJ's.
The CRJ 100,200 and EMB 145, 140 and 135 had huge sales success in the 1990's due to the very cheap price of avtur at that time, coupled with a few nasty turboprop incidents including the terrible ATR fatal accident at Roselawn Indiana, which, with the aid of clever RJ marketing caused american passengers in particular to shy away from RPT turboprops for the next few years. Since then the regional aircraft market has adjusted accordingly.
As the price of avtur exponentially increased and particularly post 9/11, airline accountants retired their 50 seat RJ's in favour of similarly sized turbos and larger 70 to 90 seat RJ's in order to make, rather than lose money.
Unlike RPT, FIFO operations are essentially 'closed charters', where the customer hires the entire aircraft regardless of the number of passengers carried.
I think the challenge for JetGo will be to secure RJ airframe lease rates that are cheap enough to offset the very high fuel burn (compared with the same sized turboprop) and secure continuing FIFO work that sits in the 400 to 600 nautical mile 'sweet spot'. Over this distance the 50 seat RJ costs can become competitive with the turpoprop (depending on finance arrangements, etc), due to the shorter sector cycle time afforded by the jet. I am also assuming here, that JetGo will pay at least market rates for their skilled labour force (pilots and engineers particularly).
Over distances shorter than 400 nautical miles, however, any jet loses the price/time advantage over a turbo and over distances longer than 600 nautical miles larger RJ's, such as the Fokker 70LR's recently acquired by Alliance, gain the pricing advantage when it comes to quoting for the job.
Although the passenger ride quality may be better above the weather in an RJ rather than through the weather in a turboprop, FIFO management accountants will always focus on the price cost/benefits of service due to the high frequency of FIFO crew change cycles. Any 'ride quality' improvements afforded by jet operations probably wouldn't be gven too much consideration by a mining company on short sector operations of less than 400 nautical miles, unless the job quote was comparable with turboprop prices.
Although Embraer made over 800 airframes in the EMB 145,140,135 RJ series and many of these are 'mothballed' around the world, lessors drive hard bargains on lease prices in order to sustain the residual values of their investment stock and I don't think JetGo will find too many real airframe 'bargains'. They might negotiate a spares package, simulator time and an initial deferral of some lease rental payments to get to start up, but in order to competitively 'buy' business other operators have historically traded at a consistent loss during the start up period and ultimately become insolvent when the inevitable full lease rental agreement start to 'bite'. The most recent high profile failure in this regard was Sky Air World.
So despite JetGo's website advertising "Jet Comfort at Turboprop Economies" and assuming as a speculative business, they don't have the millions in excess cash to buy their airframes and thus save all leasing costs, I doubt JetGo's ability to otherwise deliver on their advertising slogan.
However, as stated in the chinese proverb "be careful of what you wish for........"
The Oracle
You have made a really good statement and asked a very fair question concerning the limited success of 50 seat RJ's.
The CRJ 100,200 and EMB 145, 140 and 135 had huge sales success in the 1990's due to the very cheap price of avtur at that time, coupled with a few nasty turboprop incidents including the terrible ATR fatal accident at Roselawn Indiana, which, with the aid of clever RJ marketing caused american passengers in particular to shy away from RPT turboprops for the next few years. Since then the regional aircraft market has adjusted accordingly.
As the price of avtur exponentially increased and particularly post 9/11, airline accountants retired their 50 seat RJ's in favour of similarly sized turbos and larger 70 to 90 seat RJ's in order to make, rather than lose money.
Unlike RPT, FIFO operations are essentially 'closed charters', where the customer hires the entire aircraft regardless of the number of passengers carried.
I think the challenge for JetGo will be to secure RJ airframe lease rates that are cheap enough to offset the very high fuel burn (compared with the same sized turboprop) and secure continuing FIFO work that sits in the 400 to 600 nautical mile 'sweet spot'. Over this distance the 50 seat RJ costs can become competitive with the turpoprop (depending on finance arrangements, etc), due to the shorter sector cycle time afforded by the jet. I am also assuming here, that JetGo will pay at least market rates for their skilled labour force (pilots and engineers particularly).
Over distances shorter than 400 nautical miles, however, any jet loses the price/time advantage over a turbo and over distances longer than 600 nautical miles larger RJ's, such as the Fokker 70LR's recently acquired by Alliance, gain the pricing advantage when it comes to quoting for the job.
Although the passenger ride quality may be better above the weather in an RJ rather than through the weather in a turboprop, FIFO management accountants will always focus on the price cost/benefits of service due to the high frequency of FIFO crew change cycles. Any 'ride quality' improvements afforded by jet operations probably wouldn't be gven too much consideration by a mining company on short sector operations of less than 400 nautical miles, unless the job quote was comparable with turboprop prices.
Although Embraer made over 800 airframes in the EMB 145,140,135 RJ series and many of these are 'mothballed' around the world, lessors drive hard bargains on lease prices in order to sustain the residual values of their investment stock and I don't think JetGo will find too many real airframe 'bargains'. They might negotiate a spares package, simulator time and an initial deferral of some lease rental payments to get to start up, but in order to competitively 'buy' business other operators have historically traded at a consistent loss during the start up period and ultimately become insolvent when the inevitable full lease rental agreement start to 'bite'. The most recent high profile failure in this regard was Sky Air World.
So despite JetGo's website advertising "Jet Comfort at Turboprop Economies" and assuming as a speculative business, they don't have the millions in excess cash to buy their airframes and thus save all leasing costs, I doubt JetGo's ability to otherwise deliver on their advertising slogan.
However, as stated in the chinese proverb "be careful of what you wish for........"
The Oracle
Last edited by THE ORACLE; 17th Jan 2012 at 22:14.
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Considering that a dry lease of a EMB-145 at around US$65k a month and an hourly maintenance fee of around US$400 they would have to find some lucrative contracts!
For that price you could easily get a ATR42 / FK100 / BAe 146
For that price you could easily get a ATR42 / FK100 / BAe 146
Web site states that they "comply" with BARS
As against "we are BARS accredited" - BIG difference
They do not get a mention on the BARS website
Looks to me that the leopard hasn't changed it's spots
As against "we are BARS accredited" - BIG difference
They do not get a mention on the BARS website
Looks to me that the leopard hasn't changed it's spots
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Southeast Queensland Aviation's ******** is now showing some photos of an EMB 135 being prepared in the U.S. and reported as destined for JetGo.
In the EMB 145 RJ series the 135 has the worst economics of the lot due to 13 fewer seats than the 145. This will be a very interesting experiment.
The Oracle
http://southeastqldaviation.********...australia.html
In the EMB 145 RJ series the 135 has the worst economics of the lot due to 13 fewer seats than the 145. This will be a very interesting experiment.
The Oracle
http://southeastqldaviation.********...australia.html
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Hi all,
If you can't get The Oracle's link, or BPA's earlier identical link, to work, try inserting the following letters for the asterisks.
1/ b
2/ l
3/ o
4/ g
5/ s
6/ p
7/ o
8/ t, apparently that word is not allowed on Pprune.
megle2,
I had a look at the FSI BARS website after your 2nd post on this thread; could you provide the list of approved aviation companies? The only companies that I can find on the website are the mining companies that use the system and the approved audit companies; I'd be interested in a list of the approved companies, as I can't find a list of BARS approved companies.
The Caveman
If you can't get The Oracle's link, or BPA's earlier identical link, to work, try inserting the following letters for the asterisks.
1/ b
2/ l
3/ o
4/ g
5/ s
6/ p
7/ o
8/ t, apparently that word is not allowed on Pprune.
megle2,
I had a look at the FSI BARS website after your 2nd post on this thread; could you provide the list of approved aviation companies? The only companies that I can find on the website are the mining companies that use the system and the approved audit companies; I'd be interested in a list of the approved companies, as I can't find a list of BARS approved companies.
The Caveman
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BARS
My point is that in order to comply with BARS or be BARS accredited you need to have an AOC and all the trappings that go with it. The most basic requirement is regulatory approval and they don't have that.
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BARS
My point is that in order to comply with BARS or be BARS accredited you need to have an AOC and all the trappings that go with it. The most basic requirement is regulatory approval and they don't have that.
I think you are missing the point though. According to the other post, you need CASA approval before you can even get a BARS Audit.
**** reply, none of that made sense.
morno
**** reply, none of that made sense.
morno
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I'm impressed (not)
You don't have to be a clairvoyant to see that an SMS will be required for all passenger carrying operations and smartest time to integrate an SMS into your organisation is while you build the organisation, you don't have to be a business genius to figure that out.
It does surprise me that they will be forking out $20K/year for what should be integrated from the start.
Is that what you are charging them for your product? Your last sentence really does point to your where your allegiance lies.
"Expensive for the operator at $20K a year but, good for people such as myself that are in the SMS industry!"
If they are your customer I would love to see the reaction on the CFO's face when he reads your post. Spruking about your little financial windfall won't see much return business. By the sound of it you haven't been in the SMS industry very long and probably won't be about much longer.
It does surprise me that they will be forking out $20K/year for what should be integrated from the start.
Is that what you are charging them for your product? Your last sentence really does point to your where your allegiance lies.
"Expensive for the operator at $20K a year but, good for people such as myself that are in the SMS industry!"
If they are your customer I would love to see the reaction on the CFO's face when he reads your post. Spruking about your little financial windfall won't see much return business. By the sound of it you haven't been in the SMS industry very long and probably won't be about much longer.
Last edited by flying-spike; 22nd Jan 2012 at 06:05.
An SMS is only a small part of BARS and thus won't be the saviour to promptly gain accreditation
You had better rethink your priorities
Note : The list of BARS accredited fixed wing operators is quite limited at this stage when you take out the big guns ie Q QL J V ect
You had better rethink your priorities
Note : The list of BARS accredited fixed wing operators is quite limited at this stage when you take out the big guns ie Q QL J V ect
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BARS Folly
I know for a fact they are having a SMS written system which complies with the BARS audit.
If their SMS is based solely on BARS then you can expect CASA to 'snicker in the corner and hold back the laughter' when they reveiw your SMS. BARS is a product marketed and created by some clever Consultants who are making big dollars flogging it as 'the pinacle of aviation safety' to the resource sector whose primary business is just that - resources, not aviation! I have assisted two organisations implement SMS and each of those organisations has a stronger SMS that far outweighs BARS. Also those two organisations receive regular scheduled CASA AOC audits and HART Aviation audits as well as numerous other external audits, and neither need BARS to make them safer or of a higher standard.
Its not a CASA requirement, its a requirement that most of the resource sector are asking of their suppliers and vendors in the interest of safety.
'Jetgo are simply implementing a SMS system into their operation early which makes perfect sense for any new operator as they have a clear slate and a system to follow from the beginning. Like Ascend Charlie say's, These guys are doing it all right from the start. They aren't required to have a SMS system but they are choosing to do it and i can tell you from experience, it isn't cheap..
I can also tell you this company is real and by all intents will be operational in the next few months! They have crew at FSI , and have crossed most of the "T'S.... I know of several operators have been turned away from clients because of non BARS compliance... It wont be long before its 'standard' to have these in place....Expensive for the operator at $20K a year but, good for people such as myself that are in the SMS industry!
SMS is not an 'add on' to your company's safety structure, it is interwoven and the foundation of your safety structure, it is a living, breathing process, not some manual or 'add on'.
If you have been hoodwinked into setting up your company structure based upon BARS then you are doomed. Google ICAO and CASA as a starting point for SMS information as you obviously need some assistance. Otherwise I can set it up for you for 10k and still be home for dinner!!
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Promising
Had a look at their website and it is full of promise. No aircraft, No Pilots, No AOC, everything is promised
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BARRING Up
4 pilots already trained and BARS compliant. What does BARS say about experience on type?
Perhaps 'BARS is the new black' ?
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The founder's Linkedin profile says it all
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