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Norfolk Island Ditching ATSB Report - ?

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Norfolk Island Ditching ATSB Report - ?

Old 19th Dec 2017, 20:25
  #1281 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
They just accept the ops manual, they make no determination that the information contained there in is correct, particular with respect to aircraft information. Flew for an operator whose V1 take off data compiled in a ready use cockpit chart, and in the ops manual, guaranteed you would crash following a failure at higher temps if you elected to go following failure at, or after, V1. Chief pilots who write these things don't necessarily know the subject matter about what they decree. Cast a very jaundiced eye.
Thatís a bit bloody worrying!

For what does CASA charge all that money to consider an application for an AOC? Isnít a substantial part of the cost the time it takes to review the applicantís ops manual?

I would have thought that the unusual risks of operating into an island as remote as YSNF would have been obvious to even the most complacent of regulators and chief pilots.
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Old 19th Dec 2017, 20:42
  #1282 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
They just accept the ops manual, they make no determination that the information contained there in is correct, particular with respect to aircraft information. Flew for an operator whose V1 take off data compiled in a ready use cockpit chart, and in the ops manual, guaranteed you would crash following a failure at higher temps if you elected to go following failure at, or after, V1. Chief pilots who write these things don't necessarily know the subject matter about what they decree. Cast a very jaundiced eye.
This must depend on which area office is doing the desk audit of the manual. Was involved in putting a Cessna 208B on the register in Perth, the CASA team certainly made determinations on what was acceptable data and caused several rewrites.
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Old 19th Dec 2017, 20:53
  #1283 (permalink)  
 
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I would have thought that the unusual risks of operating into an island as remote as YSNF would have been obvious to even the most complacent of regulators and chief pilots.
And Captains as it turns out.
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Old 19th Dec 2017, 21:31
  #1284 (permalink)  
 
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What is the role of the regulator when considering an application for an AOC authorising international operations like these? And the Chief Pilot when overseeing these operations? If I the PIC is responsible for everything, why have a regulator and the position of Chief Pilot?
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Old 19th Dec 2017, 21:36
  #1285 (permalink)  
 
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It's not that no one thinks that the regulator and the operator shouldn't have done a better job.

It's that this is primarily a pilot forum, and so the position of pilot gets the lion's share of the scrutiny here.
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Old 19th Dec 2017, 22:05
  #1286 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Checkboard
It's that this is primarily a pilot forum, and so the position of pilot gets the lion's share of the scrutiny here.
You say that like it’s an objective truth or an inevitable outcome. My observation is that Australian aviation fora are almost unique in the level of pilot-to-pilot back-stabbing, vitriol and criticism. The same does not occur in equivalent fora in other countries - at least not the ones in which I participate.

Originally Posted by Checkboard
It's not that no one thinks that the regulator and the operator shouldn't have done a better job.
That’s not how I read the content of some posts.

In any event, you and I are at least in agreement on the point that the PIC of NGA was not the only hole in the Swill cheese.
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Old 19th Dec 2017, 22:24
  #1287 (permalink)  
 
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My observation is that Australian aviation fora are almost unique in the level of pilot-to-pilot back-stabbing, vitriol and criticism. The same does not occur in equivalent fora in other countries - at least not the ones in which I participate.
Ha! - Oh the pilot back stabbing happens everywhere.

The cultural difference is that Australians are very direct in their speech. The Brits back stab, they are just very polite about it, and the Americans back stab, they just bluster and obfusticate about it.

Swill Cheese - must be a Christmas delicacy.
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Old 19th Dec 2017, 22:31
  #1288 (permalink)  
 
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Come on LB, you know the answer to that. The role of the regulator is to protect the Minister and by default the government and the role of the Chief Pilot is to protect the company from CASA audits. The only person protecting the pilot is the pilot him/herself. It has always been like this! Any pilot who thinks that the rules and regs are going to protect him/her when the situation goes pear shaped, especially for marginal operations, is operating in a world of delusion. Why do you think the OM's always state that the fuel decision is ultimately the PIC responsibility? It lets the company of the hook if not enough is carried. Why do you think that the Airservices state that traffic holding for specific amounts of time at specific times of day are advisories only? It lets them off the hook when more traffic holding is required. You seem very reluctant to accept that the PIC has no other responsibility than to operate strictly IAW the OM and CASA regs and that if something bad happens then its not their fault. The PIC has a lot of autonomy to operate his/her aircraft however they see fit. Certainly not outside of the rules but they are not restricted by the rules if they consider the safe operation of their aircraft warrants it. So Pelair did not mandate full fuel but they did not prohibit it either. The weather reports were not automatically provided but they were not withheld if asked for. The crew could have declared a Mayday and the published minima would no longer have been a restriction but they chose not to. All decisions ultimately resting with the PIC.
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Old 19th Dec 2017, 22:36
  #1289 (permalink)  
 
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And, I have to say - pilots who whine that "The company never trained me for that." ... and.. "I don't do that because it's not in the manuals." annoy me somewhat.

I have always thought that a professional pilot should BRING safety TO the company. If a pilot is only the sum of a company's training, then they aren't worth the money they are paid... a professional should proactively seek knowledge about the profession of pilot, not expect it to be spoon-fed to them.
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Old 20th Dec 2017, 01:47
  #1290 (permalink)  
 
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And, I have to say - pilots who whine that "The company never trained me for that." ... and.. "I don't do that because it's not in the manuals." annoy me somewhat.

I have always thought that a professional pilot should BRING safety TO the company. If a pilot is only the sum of a company's training, then they aren't worth the money they are paid... a professional should proactively seek knowledge about the profession of pilot, not expect it to be spoon-fed to them.
Agreed. The regulator and operator should define a safe minimum. The PIC should decide what s/he requires over and above this safe minimum.

I think we all agree there were deficiencies on the part of the regulator and operator, and that these minima were too low. That does not however get around the fact that the PIC could and should have exceeded these.

Its a critical society wide generational issue. With all the regulations and procedures and guidelines....., the individual at the pointy end is increasingly inclined to believe "all I have to do is follow the regs and if something goes wrong then the regs are to blame"

Wold you drive down a freeway in heavy fog, torrential rain, hail, ice on the road etc just because the posted speed limit was 110? The maximum (in this case) allowable in this situation is 110. That doesn't mean 110 is always right. Road users are expected to apply discretion and judgement to these situations. So should pilots.
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Old 20th Dec 2017, 02:44
  #1291 (permalink)  
 
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The cultural difference is that Australians are very direct in their speech. The Brits back stab, they are just very polite about it, and the Americans back stab, they just bluster and obfusticate about it.
I guess youíre right. Thatís what makes pilots so easy to divide and conquer.

Glad Iím merely a spectator and beneficiary of that race to the bottom.

You seem very reluctant to accept that the PIC has no other responsibility than to operate strictly IAW the OM and CASA regs and that if something bad happens then its not their fault.
You keep deliberately misrepresenting what Iíve been saying. I can only speculate on why your usual objectivity is missing in action.

I have always thought that a professional pilot should BRING safety TO the company. If a pilot is only the sum of a company's training, then they aren't worth the money they are paid... a professional should proactively seek knowledge about the profession of pilot, not expect it to be spoon-fed to them.
And this goes to the psychology of all this. It must feel good to know that youíll never make the kinds of mistakes the PIC of NGA did. Really good.
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Old 20th Dec 2017, 02:50
  #1292 (permalink)  
 
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My observation is that Australian aviation fora are almost unique in the level of pilot-to-pilot back-stabbing, vitriol and criticism. The same does not occur in equivalent fora in other countries - at least not the ones in which I participate.

Then you state this:

I guess youíre right. Thatís what makes pilots so easy to divide and conquer.Glad Iím merely a spectator and beneficiary of that race to the bottom.
You keep deliberately misrepresenting what Iíve been saying. I can only speculate on why your usual objectivity is missing in action.
What you say is infantile and I think my objectivity is correct when I state that you are a tossa.wit
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Old 20th Dec 2017, 03:14
  #1293 (permalink)  
 
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My observation is that Australian aviation fora are almost unique in the level of pilot-to-pilot back-stabbing, vitriol and criticism. The same does not occur in equivalent fora in other countries - at least not the ones in which I participate.
Sadly, a very accurate observation.

Tootle pip!!
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Old 20th Dec 2017, 03:17
  #1294 (permalink)  
 
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And not to mention the level of condescension from those who think their aviation knowledge and experience is way above those of the "average" pilot.
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Old 20th Dec 2017, 03:26
  #1295 (permalink)  
 
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And not to mention the level of condescension from those who think their aviation knowledge and experience is way above those of the "average" pilot.
Oh! Dear!!, the poor little "average Australia pilot" is offended again by the very idea that somebody might have more aviation experience and/or knowledge than they, but not confess to being suitably humble and apologetic about such a fact. And along the lines of 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act, it is presumed that the "condescende" is the arbiter of the offence.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 20th Dec 2017, 04:11
  #1296 (permalink)  
 
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What made you think I was talking about you LS? Now what was that line from the Carly Simon song again......
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Old 20th Dec 2017, 04:20
  #1297 (permalink)  
 
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What made you think I was talking about you LS?
I didn't particularly, but that nasty "tall poppy" syndrome is never far from the surface on any PPRuNe Australian thread.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 20th Dec 2017, 05:42
  #1298 (permalink)  
 
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One man's tall poppy syndrome is another's BS meter. Aussie's have a finely honed BS meter and will call BS when they see it. Exhibit A:

I didn't particularly,
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Old 20th Dec 2017, 08:27
  #1299 (permalink)  
 
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Were you talking about me? I've made many mistakes. I wrote about some of them here:

https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/360003-few-flying-stories.html

The reason I am so interested in this event is that I am constantly thinking "If it were me, what, honesty would I have done differently?" It resonates with me because I have flown this type, and for a couple of flights, for this operator. Indeed I did my Westwind endorsement with Pelair.

Last edited by Checkboard; 20th Dec 2017 at 09:39.
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Old 20th Dec 2017, 22:17
  #1300 (permalink)  
 
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What you say is infantile and I think my objectivity is correct when I state that you are a tossa wit
Thanks for that.

I always laugh when pilots claim to be “professional”. Members of real professions don’t publicly criticise other members of the profession. It’s a ground for disciplinary action and, in worst cases, disqualification. Real professionals understand the reasons for these conduct rules.

LL: You and the PIC of NGA are colleagues in the same profession. You and some other contributors to this thread need to work harder on pretending to be one.

And I might have missed it, LL: Have you posted an example of a mistake that you made that could have resulted in a very bad outcome? I have, and I could provide many more. Please give your professional colleagues the opportunity to comment and learn from your experience.
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