Norfolk Island Ditching ATSB Report - ?
Some 'interesting' figures associated with this topic;
Out of 229,313 'views',
the index says 940 'replies', but only 856 are 'remaining'....
(and the penultimate one ain't nuthin' 'techo' either...
)
And out of 48 pages originally, only 43 pages remaining.
Just a small 'measure' of some of the crap - and some 'humour' - which is now associated with these formerly 'esteemed pages'....and 'armchair' critics....
Cheers
Out of 229,313 'views',
the index says 940 'replies', but only 856 are 'remaining'....
(and the penultimate one ain't nuthin' 'techo' either...
)And out of 48 pages originally, only 43 pages remaining.
Just a small 'measure' of some of the crap - and some 'humour' - which is now associated with these formerly 'esteemed pages'....and 'armchair' critics....
Cheers
Still waiting. Surely this can't be dragged out much longer.
It appears the actions of operator and regulator are within the scope of the revised report.
Investigation: AO-2009-072 - Ditching of Israel Aircraft Westwind 1124A aircraft, VH-NGA, 5 km SW of Norfolk Island Airport on 18 November 2009
Updated: 4 April 2016
The re-opened investigation has gathered a substantial volume of additional evidence, primarily from CASA and the aircraft operator, and has involved over 20 interviews with personnel from the operator and CASA, as well as information from the aircraft’s cockpit voice and flight data recorders. Analysis of the large volume of evidence obtained is continuing as is the development of the draft report, which is now expected to be released for review and comment by directly involved parties around the middle of the year. That analysis is focusing on:
pre-flight planning and fuel management procedures and practices
in-flight fuel management and related decision-making procedures and practices
fatigue management procedures and practices
flight crew check and training
the operator’s oversight of its flight operations activities
provision of weather and other flight information to flight crews
cabin safety and survival factors
regulatory oversight of activities such as those listed above
It appears the actions of operator and regulator are within the scope of the revised report.
Investigation: AO-2009-072 - Ditching of Israel Aircraft Westwind 1124A aircraft, VH-NGA, 5 km SW of Norfolk Island Airport on 18 November 2009
Updated: 4 April 2016
The re-opened investigation has gathered a substantial volume of additional evidence, primarily from CASA and the aircraft operator, and has involved over 20 interviews with personnel from the operator and CASA, as well as information from the aircraft’s cockpit voice and flight data recorders. Analysis of the large volume of evidence obtained is continuing as is the development of the draft report, which is now expected to be released for review and comment by directly involved parties around the middle of the year. That analysis is focusing on:
pre-flight planning and fuel management procedures and practices
in-flight fuel management and related decision-making procedures and practices
fatigue management procedures and practices
flight crew check and training
the operator’s oversight of its flight operations activities
provision of weather and other flight information to flight crews
cabin safety and survival factors
regulatory oversight of activities such as those listed above
I'm not going to go ferreting around for the post, but there was a post by someone familiar with the systems, that the gear would extend as a result of the damage evident in the photo. Gear required hydraulic pressure to hold it in the "up" position, no pressure available sans engines, and hydraulic lines obviously severed by virtue of the missing forward fuselage.
Gravity. From one operators training notes
The landing gear is hydraulically actuated and mechanically controlled. The only electrical items related to the gear are the gear indication, warning, squat switch functions, and anti-skid. With loss of electrical power, the gear may be extended normally, but will not retract because of the down lock solenoid. If you are unfortunate enough to have a hydraulic failure, the gear may free fall to the extended position if the fluid trapped in the uplocks leaks out. Prior to a long over water flight, some operators check the uplocks by jacking the airplane, retracting the gear, bleeding off the hydraulic pressure, and letting the aircraft sit for two or three hours to see if the uplocks hold. Israeli Aircraft makes fine airplanes, however, there are a few things that indicate some level of brain damage in one or more members of their design team. This is one of them. The range and speed of the airplane is somewhat more limited with the gear down.
The landing gear is hydraulic. What a surprise! It is powered by the main hydraulic system. The normal extension and retraction of the gear is not dependent upon electrical power, as in many aircraft. The gear handle on the Westwind actually moves a hydraulic valve that operates the gear. Indication and anti-skid protection is all that is lost if an electrical failure occurs after the gear is retracted. If you have an electrical failure prior to retracting the gear, the ground safety solenoid will not let you move the gear handle out of the down position. It does take electrical power to override this. The most likely use for the override would be the failure of a squat switch followed by an engine failure after V1, but prior to gear retraction, as leaving the gear down would result in a substantial loss of climb performance.
Alternate extension of the gear is done by placing the gear handle in the down position, unlatching the emergency gear handle and rotating it 90 degrees aft, and pulling it up to discharge the nitrogen into the down side of the forward main landing gear actuators. The nose wheel is extended by a bungee.
If the main hydraulic system is not providing pressure to the brakes, the brake pedals can be depressed farther by the pilot's feet. This activates the emergency braking system. The emergency brake system takes fluid from a standpipe in the main hydraulic system reservoir. An electric hydraulic pump supplies brake pressure to the aft brake calipers only. There is no anti skid protection when using the emergency brake system. The emergency brake system is what you use to set the parking brake prior to starting engines, as you most likely will not have main system hydraulic pressure until one of your engines is started.
The landing gear is hydraulic. What a surprise! It is powered by the main hydraulic system. The normal extension and retraction of the gear is not dependent upon electrical power, as in many aircraft. The gear handle on the Westwind actually moves a hydraulic valve that operates the gear. Indication and anti-skid protection is all that is lost if an electrical failure occurs after the gear is retracted. If you have an electrical failure prior to retracting the gear, the ground safety solenoid will not let you move the gear handle out of the down position. It does take electrical power to override this. The most likely use for the override would be the failure of a squat switch followed by an engine failure after V1, but prior to gear retraction, as leaving the gear down would result in a substantial loss of climb performance.
Alternate extension of the gear is done by placing the gear handle in the down position, unlatching the emergency gear handle and rotating it 90 degrees aft, and pulling it up to discharge the nitrogen into the down side of the forward main landing gear actuators. The nose wheel is extended by a bungee.
If the main hydraulic system is not providing pressure to the brakes, the brake pedals can be depressed farther by the pilot's feet. This activates the emergency braking system. The emergency brake system takes fluid from a standpipe in the main hydraulic system reservoir. An electric hydraulic pump supplies brake pressure to the aft brake calipers only. There is no anti skid protection when using the emergency brake system. The emergency brake system is what you use to set the parking brake prior to starting engines, as you most likely will not have main system hydraulic pressure until one of your engines is started.
Any idea what happens when the supply is stopped and no uplock leak?
But the premise of the original question is that damage caused by the ditching created a leak, which seems entirely plausible.
Hempy, your grasp of hydraulics seems rather tenuous. It's the pressure differential between the two sides of the piston or between inside and outside of a ram that is responsible for the actuating force.
Broken piping = no pressure differential = no force.
water, hydraulic fluid and absolute pressure are irrelevant if there is no pressure differential.
...or did you mean water pressure on the gear doors?
Broken piping = no pressure differential = no force.
water, hydraulic fluid and absolute pressure are irrelevant if there is no pressure differential.
...or did you mean water pressure on the gear doors?
I would have thought water pressure would beat 'gravity' in this circumstance..
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It's a dark and stormy night, and you are attempting to land at a remote strip.
Unfortunately, due to a number of circumstances, you are dangerously low on fuel and have no practical alternate.
Fortunately, the runway aligns with an approach over the ocean, but unfortunately the aerodrome is socked in.
You position yourself safely out to sea, configure the aircraft for landing, and commence a descent in order to get below the cloud and become visual.
Unfortunately, you run out of altitude before you find the cloud base*
*This is a fictional account, and any resemblance to any actual persons or events is entirely coincidental.
I'll be interested in reading the CVR transcript.
Unfortunately, due to a number of circumstances, you are dangerously low on fuel and have no practical alternate.
Fortunately, the runway aligns with an approach over the ocean, but unfortunately the aerodrome is socked in.
You position yourself safely out to sea, configure the aircraft for landing, and commence a descent in order to get below the cloud and become visual.
Unfortunately, you run out of altitude before you find the cloud base*
*This is a fictional account, and any resemblance to any actual persons or events is entirely coincidental.
I'll be interested in reading the CVR transcript.
I'll be interested in reading the CVR transcript.
The ATSB has been so compromised that I'm not prepared to accept any "transcript" as bearing an accurate semblance to anything.
It's a dark and stormy night, and you are attempting to land at a remote strip.
Unfortunately, due to a number of circumstances, you are dangerously low on fuel and have no practical alternate.
Fortunately, the runway aligns with an approach over the ocean, but unfortunately the aerodrome is socked in.
You position yourself safely out to sea, configure the aircraft for landing, and commence a descent in order to get below the cloud and become visual.
Unfortunately, you run out of altitude before you find the cloud base
Unfortunately, due to a number of circumstances, you are dangerously low on fuel and have no practical alternate.
Fortunately, the runway aligns with an approach over the ocean, but unfortunately the aerodrome is socked in.
You position yourself safely out to sea, configure the aircraft for landing, and commence a descent in order to get below the cloud and become visual.
Unfortunately, you run out of altitude before you find the cloud base
The ATSB has been so compromised that I'm not prepared to accept any "transcript" as bearing an accurate semblance to anything.
And have you noticed that recent reports seem to have ceased publishing full transcripts at all??