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Norfolk Island Ditching ATSB Report - ?

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Norfolk Island Ditching ATSB Report - ?

Old 3rd Nov 2012, 09:34
  #481 (permalink)  
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So there you go Rudder it's official that CASA Official's were officially
'delighted' about Mr Wickham's official appointment!
Those who know Mr Hood would not be shocked at his use of the term 'delighted'. He is a 'delightful' chap and was well known for his 'delightful' early morning running in and around New Farm Park, until sent back to Spamberra.
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Old 3rd Nov 2012, 11:23
  #482 (permalink)  
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Kharon's post #532 hits the nail on the head. Only a half brained bureaucrat would stop the most important part of an aircraft investigation - Retrieval of the black box, from taking place on the basis of saving a couple of thousand dollars. And this guy is the chief of the ATSB? Good god.

AF 47 comes to mind. Millions spent looking for the boxes. Why? Not just to get to the cause of the accident but to learn from the accidents parameters and improve the overall system.
Beaker wouldn't even sign off on a retrieval cost of up to 20k. Hell, he would spend that on just one trip to Montreal or some other irrelevant non-descript pony pooh exercise without blinking (or memememememe-ing).

You reap what you sew and Australia is reaping an inept, unsafe and truth covering ASA, ATSB and CASA. The Politicians responsible for allowing this ludicrous mess to occur in the first place and then continually support the hiring of bureaucrats, suckholes, nupties and bulls#it artists to mismanage these portfolios is now so laughable it hurts!

"Unsafe skies for all"

Beaker and The Screaming Skull

Last edited by gobbledock; 3rd Nov 2012 at 11:30. Reason: Trying to avoid the biggest god damn elephant in the room I have ever seen
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Old 3rd Nov 2012, 14:29
  #483 (permalink)  

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Been a bit preoccupied with other things for a while, but a return to this and other subjects aviation suggests it's actually got a whole lot worse, than I could possibly have imagined.

Caught the 4Corners show and thought I must be in a parallel universe and were they discussing the same accident?

And why weren't the FDR CVR recovered. I've recently put another Part 25 aircraft on the Australian register, simply not possible without an FDR even for private ops, when it is only required for charter/rpt in the US. Basically disqualified a significant %age of available private aircraft in the market.

It is a "safety" issue with which I have no truck. We are supposed to or did have the worlds toughest safety standards until the late eighties. This is now shrouded in myth.

FDR is a requirement for type of operations in Australia.

So if Oz has a thing about FDRs for "safety" purposes why was the FDR not recovered, both recorders would have and may still provide some fascinating insights. I have somewhere seen video of the largely intact components of the wreckage, it cant have been that hard to recover the boxes.

Smells to high heaven.
I see/hear echoes of Seaview and Monarch and don't even get me started on Lockhart, this one is IMHO plus ca change.

When I were a lad apart from the regs, there was a thing called CDF

I fear the charge towards proscriptive COMs whilst being a bit like the parsons, egg also strips away and/or gives the pilot a place to hide from actually being personally responsible and liable to exercise CDF. He can get away with plain dumbosity because he is not specifically prevented from doing so.

Last edited by gaunty; 3rd Nov 2012 at 14:34.
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Old 3rd Nov 2012, 23:56
  #484 (permalink)  
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Flight nurse nails it!

Noticed this comment on Ben's piece yesterday which I think puts a human face to the hurt that these numbnuts are inflicting, go KC there are people out there that feel your anguish!

Karen Casey

Posted November 4, 2012 at 3:49 am | Permalink

When will truth trump cover-ups that are laced with selfish intent to save ones posterior? How ridiculous to have so many broken rules in an- audit, yet almost get away with it. There is a reason for the truth that is emerging, it’s for air safety & the failure of our regulator & investigative bodies results. It has been the survivors that have been the seekers of the real deal. What a disgrace. With both our Chief Commissioners under the microscope now, the amplification of this ordeal is finally happening.

CASA & ATSB have a lot to answer for, dragging this on for selfish intent is criminal & at the least cruel to all on board. The coverup is surfacing and all will be revealed about the incompetencies of all parties involved.

How unprofessional this has all been. How disappointing in the treatment of the people who have experienced hell from impact till now with our own government bodies involved. Does our government have enough integrity to investigate the individuals involved and actually DO something about this rather than just go around in circles. To add insult, let’s just throw in the fact that the ex-Pel-Air chief pilot at the time of the incident now works as an investigator for CASA…please!

Just stop the B.S & tell the truth.
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Old 4th Nov 2012, 00:27
  #485 (permalink)  
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He can get away with plain dumbosity because he is not specifically prevented from doing so.
My take on this debacle too. Have not seen that nom de plume for while!!
Old 4th Nov 2012, 03:02
  #486 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1999
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The revelations just keep getting worse as every rock is turned over. You have a CP that has overseen the accident, that has presided over the company for quite sometime when it gets a damning audit report and CASA reward him with a job. They feel he was doing a good job... hate to see a bad one.

I would bet that he had limited experience in the aircraft and I believe no check and training on either the Lear or the Westwind so I don't know how he improved things at Nowra because he fundamentally had nothing to do with it. He certainly didn't improve it by leadership.

Just amazing the whole debacle. Instead of CASA holding themselves above it all, they open themselves up to this. The trouble with that is that there are some great and capable people in CASA who do good work and yet they are tainted by these events and decisions. It is just a bad decision to employ him and it just throws all their actions and decisions into doubt.

It would be really interesting to know how others in CASA view the individual and his employment. How do you take anything he says as creditable.
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Old 4th Nov 2012, 03:19
  #487 (permalink)  
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To add insult, let’s just throw in the fact that the ex-Pel-Air chief pilot at the time of the incident now works as an investigator for CASA…please!
Look on the bright side, if you ever have an audit/investigation done by him (CASA) at least you know where the bar has been set.
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Old 4th Nov 2012, 08:53
  #488 (permalink)  
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Special audits, hidden reports, spin, bollocks and pony pooh

I posted this elsewhere but thought it was applicable here -
Ok, so now might be the time to further apply the blowtorch:

Pel Air aren't the only 'outfit' to undergo a 'special audit', or as the good Senators would say, 'hidden report'. There was also one of these reports done 'post Lockhart River/Aerotropics', yes Australia's worst accident, and the 'hidden report' is critical of CASA and it's role in the accident. It would also be alleged that the same person(s) that authored the Pel Air 'special audit' commissioned the Lockhart River/Aerotropics 'special audit'.
Question is this - Why is somebody at CASA apparently doing robust work and slicing through the pony pooh yet the rest of CASA and the ATSB couldn't investigate a bad case of herpes?

The time has well and truly passed to pull down this house of cards. It is a joke. People have died, asses get covered and the families of innocent dead people get to live out their days knowing that circumstances pertaining to their loved ones deaths aren't as things seem.

A royal commission is now warranted, the whole dirty story needs to be laid out for all to see. One can only hope that those who are championing this cause, average joe's who actually care about lives, plus a handful of smart Senators, a pissed off industry and some top notch Journalists can push hard enough to get it over the line.

Perhaps the Senators would like to 'request' a copy of that report to peruse?

Last edited by gobbledock; 4th Nov 2012 at 08:53.
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Old 4th Nov 2012, 10:13
  #489 (permalink)  
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No, not Australia's worst by a long chalk. Lockhart River in 2005 , the toll was 15.

14 Jun 43 Bakers Creek near Mackay, QLD. USAAF B-17 Flying Fortress #40-2072, "Miss Every Morning Fix'n", 40 killed

19 Dec 43 30 miles north of Rockhampton near Rossmoya Rd, Canal Creek area USAAF C-47 Dakota VH-CHR, #43-30742?, 31 killed

10 Jun 60 Into the sea near Mackay, QLD. Trans Australian Airlines F-27 Fokker Friendship VH-TFB, "Abel Tasman", 29 killed

26 Jun 50 York, WA. Australian National Airways Pty Ltd Douglas DC-4 VH-ANA (c/n 42910), "Amana", crashed at night half an hour after takeoff from Perth for Adelaide. 28 killed in crash, 1 other died 2 days later. Total 29 killed.

7 Aug 43 Into Cleveland Bay, Townsville, QLD. USAAF C-47 Dakota #41-7733, 27 killed

31 Dec 68 near Port Hedland: Robertson-Miller Airlines Vickers Viscount 720 VH-RMQ. In-flight separation of the right wing. 26 killed.

10 Mar 46 Frederick Henry Bay, Tasmania. Australian National Airways. Douglas DC-3 (C-47-DL) VH-AET (c/n 6013), Crashed minutes after takeoff from Cambridge, (Hobart) at 8.55 pm. May have been caused by pilot engaging autopilot in mistake for fuel crossfeed. Captain (Spence) diabetic, undisclosed. 25 killed

22 Sep 66 On Nadjayamba Station approx.12 miles west of Winton, QLD. Ansett/ANA Vickers 832 Viscount VH-RMI. Fire in No.2 cabin air Rootes blower. Spread to a fuel tank where upper boom of main spar was heated until it failed. 24 killed

27 Mar 45 Cooktown - Finschhafen USAAF C-47A-90-DL Dakota #43-16011, c/n 20477, 24 killed

27 Mar 43 near Archerfield, Brisbane RAAF C-47 Dakota VH-CTB, A65-2 (A30-16), 23 killed
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Old 4th Nov 2012, 22:07
  #490 (permalink)  
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And Don't Forget...

The Ansett-ANA Viscount VH-TVC crash in Botany Bay on 30 November, 1961, 15 Killed.
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Old 5th Nov 2012, 00:23
  #491 (permalink)  
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What is the value of the board?

It begs the question, if the Senators are left to ask all these questions regarding the performance of CASA, the ATSB and the relationship between the two, what useful purpose do the board serve? Of course other than to make sure the trough doesn't overflow!

Last edited by flying-spike; 5th Nov 2012 at 00:29. Reason: wiped my snout
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Old 5th Nov 2012, 00:35
  #492 (permalink)  
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Norfolk research data.

In response to requests from interested parties.

Download – The hidden Report.

Download - Pel Air special audit.

P3 a.k.a 3.8 (psig)

Squawk "Problem" if difficulties encounterd.
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Old 5th Nov 2012, 11:19
  #493 (permalink)  
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the right of reply

I feel sorry for Dominic James as he has watched his own execution on this site. He has had the courage to stand up to his convictions publicly and address them. It's well beyond Dominic James and his crew and passengers now. The serious questions have to be asked, as to how we got to this state by the Senate? I'm sure they will.
With the evidence on hand and new evidence I am informed of, its going to look even worse for CASA and the ATSB. Do you have to be responsible as a Chief Pilot for an aviation disaster to get a job as an FOI at CASA?
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Old 5th Nov 2012, 11:33
  #494 (permalink)  
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He abandoned his passengers to save his own life! I know of others who have lost theirs saving others.

He gets no tears from me!

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Old 5th Nov 2012, 11:42
  #495 (permalink)  
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----- at least you know where the bar has been set.

While I have no knowledge of this individual as an FOI, I have observed what can be called the "poacher turned gamekeeper" syndrome all too often.

In short, now armed with a great deal of power, the newly minted FOI/AWI (usually with a less than stellar record of performance with multiple former employers) sets forth to enforce with great enthusiasm his or her version of extreme interpretations of the regulations.

The one that always gets me is during a flight test, when said FOI demands levels of performance that we know damned well they are not capable.

Tootle pip!!

Last edited by LeadSled; 5th Nov 2012 at 11:44.
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Old 5th Nov 2012, 16:38
  #496 (permalink)  
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Very funny .. . . . but what hard, compelling evidence is there that he did not consider the others? It all happened very very suddenly. If you were not there, in my book you are not qualified to pass such terrible judgement.
Wipe up that slur as Grypipe-Fynne once had it.
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Old 5th Nov 2012, 19:15
  #497 (permalink)  
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Not a slur. Just facts that he stated himself on the ABC.

Last edited by Dangly Bits; 5th Nov 2012 at 19:16.
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Old 5th Nov 2012, 19:44
  #498 (permalink)  
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While I don't condone what Dominic did, the reality is that if he had not gotten the escape open no one would have got out.

That said, he didn't do what he was supposed to do as pilot in command and that is take responsibility for getting it right . It doesn't have to be in the ops manual or approved by CASA.

The PIC is the last defence in getting things right.
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Old 5th Nov 2012, 20:47
  #499 (permalink)  
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Cup day

Not only a good day out, but a good day for quietly making nasty announcements and doing dastardly deeds when the 'media' is in the hospitality tent enjoying the free Verve.

There is serious money being bet that the Golden West Mafia cup is being run today, "in parallel". It's a fairly small field of runners as the penalty for winning is the knackers yard; so, the reluctant competitors have to be 'persuaded' to participate. Yes it's a very slow race, but the tactics more than compensate for lack of speed and dash.

I am running the book for both the ministers "High Jump Stakes" and the GWM cup.

5/2 Pot of Pooh. (equal fav).

5/2 Delightful days. (equal fav).

5/3 Gollum.

5/4 Lord Farcry.

4/1 Clerical error.

6/2 I'm a star, see.

6/1 Re-tread kid.

10/1 My Dark duck

Race entries close at 1330 ESST.

Last edited by Kharon; 5th Nov 2012 at 20:48. Reason: Hot favourite "Pulled by Smoko".
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Old 5th Nov 2012, 23:38
  #500 (permalink)  

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Is this like the Captain of the Concordia, who "accidentally fell" off the ship into a lifeboat and couldn't get back on his ship. If you weren't there how could you know what actually happened there. His subsequent comments that he needed to coordinate the rescue onshore, well?
And if the FO had not regained consciousness? And, her actually finding the exit under those conditions defies the imagination.

We all know how to identify a duck.

Any vestiges of what actually happened lay in the FDR and CVR, both pieces of equipment being mandatory for that VERY purpose, but for reasons that escape me entirely were not recovered. They still may be and it is highly possible they will have recoverable information that will provide some certainty on events.

I suspect Humphrey Appleby might have advised strongly against this, on the age old public service principle of "unless you know what it would reveal don't go there". Since when did cost enter the investigation arena in cases such as this.

It is simply not fair to any of the parties including the pilot.
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