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Old 15th Nov 2011, 12:47
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Back on topic................................ (probably against the wishes of some)

The way the AAT operates (done some reading independant of this place, as I was interested).

The politicians could pass a law similar. A person unfit..(to walk the streets)
When it looks unfavourable in court, the cops could then take you to the AAT, not prove the case and have you locked up....for life using Mr Quadrio's experience as benchmark.

Might be a positive way to clear the streets of kiddie touchers, rapist, and the unwashed.....probably half the people in here also.

No-one would be safe.

Imagine that huh.
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Old 15th Nov 2011, 21:27
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Or maybe it was misuse of the AAT?
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Old 15th Nov 2011, 22:17
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Mistake may have been a better word.

AAT is usually for matters where the outcome is not as critical as losing your profession.

I wonder if there are still other avenues he can use to get a speedier solution?
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Old 15th Nov 2011, 22:18
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps any use is misuse? It should be left to go smelly at the back of the fridge.
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Old 16th Nov 2011, 08:54
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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The question is, should the AAT exist at all...?

Magna Carta - clause 39

No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgment of his equals or by the law of the land
In my opinion, the AAT only has jurisdiction if you consent to its jurisdiction. If you don't the only legal recourse available to the authorities is a court with a jury.

Of course, why let a bunch of time-honoured law get in the road of a legal prosecution...?
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Old 16th Nov 2011, 09:40
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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or is it part of the process one has to go through prior to appeal to a higher court?
That's ok if you have the money to go to the next level. The whole legal system is weighted towards the big end of town or the government authorities that are tax payer funded.

Sure you can apply for legal aid and probably get it, but your level of legal representation drops off with what you can afford (or can't afford).

Maybe John could try the Commonwealth Ombudsman with letters of concern from members of the aviation industry i.e. 'all of us'!
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Old 16th Nov 2011, 10:54
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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AAT....

Can it be bypassed? Was there another way open to J Quadrio to ask to have his licence reinstated after the DPP decided not to proceed.? Why does one have to ask the AAT?
A court order? or an application to a Fed. Magistrates court?

The AAT ... like so many things that get coughed up to do one thing, has morphed into something else. More like a kangaroo court or starchamber.. certainly not a proper court with rules of evidence, and decisions beyond reasonable doubt.
Justice (sic) must be done and seen to be done. That certainly hasnt occured in this event. Far from it.... a life sentence.! Its bullsh*t!

Quadrio wins the DPP battle but the AAT evens the score by letting CASA win the war. In a most disgraceful way.

WTF are this country's bureaucracies developing into??

"Public"service as a fascist state? Some serious changes are needed here.
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Old 16th Nov 2011, 19:19
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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The Commonwealth Ombudsman sounds a good start.
Which AAT - Qld?
What does the Ombudsman need to investigate?
What does the diagramme in AndyRR's #79 tell us?
Is 62 deg excessive?
Was that an appropriate angle for carrying tourists?
Was there another way to avoid the birds?
Does the video indicate that was the steepest angle?

I've seen a few people fail to excite Ombudsmen, who have a big workload, so can't spend the time conducting an FBI type forensic investigation.

On the other hand there are a lot of good brains on here, strategic, technical and legal, and if John agrees, could probably present a brief to the Ombudsman which would allow him to make a quick decision that a Department got out of line.
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Old 16th Nov 2011, 21:27
  #89 (permalink)  

Victim of a bored god

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The AAT is a tribunal that reviews (and ratifies or reverses) Government administrative decisions.

The Ombudsman would have no power to interfere in, let alone reverse a decision by the AAT.

I suspect any review of an AAT decision could only be judicial, refer to the Administrative Decisions (Judicial Review) Act 1977?
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Old 16th Nov 2011, 21:40
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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I agree, and also the AAT is probably in another State.

However the Federal Ombudsman may have the power to investigate what could be an abuse of process by Department of Transport and Regional Services.
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 06:09
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Legal system

I have lost all faith in the legal system in Australia.
I have always conducted my flying in a safe and professional way.
I hope other pilots do not find themselves in my position.
I ask how you can judge a flight by a video and how come none of the CASA FOIs never went to the area where this incident happened.
The DPP did not go through with this incident because they had no evidence, the only reason that the CASA went to the DPP is because i appealed about having my license cancelled. I was stood down then the CASA tried to put a case together.
In my case GUILTY till proven INNOCENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 06:43
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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The DPP did not go through with this incident because they had no evidence, the only reason that the CASA went to the DPP is because i appealed about having my license cancelled. I was stood down then the CASA tried to put a case together.
Here lies the real issue John. Regardless of the circumstances of the case - You embarressed some of the CASA ego's, hence them going after you. Any time you make a complaint or lodge an appeal that is based on or includes remarks pertaining to individuals that work for CASA they go after you mate. It is purely personal, 'safety' is the guise/cover they use, but ego is the issue.
You can liken it to going up against the ATO, another ego driven bullyboy organisation. Look at Hoges, he took them on, he has basically won, yet the ATO will not admit to being in the wrong, they will not apolgise and they will not compensate. So Hoges has spent say 7 years fighting them, flying to and from AUS, spent tonnes of money, stressed and inconvenienced only to have what happen? So either way he loses.

John, you have every right to have lost complete faith in the justice system as there isn't one, well not one for the average man anyway.
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 06:45
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Afternoon John
Perhaps come to PNG and fly, you will like the country and pilots. PNG CASA is not so bad.
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 10:35
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Have to agee with John in regards to the legal system! The legal system in Oz is seriously broken, unless you can afford the biggest and best QC you are stuck in the system.

You start off with the Magistrates Court or Federal Magistrates Court and unless you plead guilty straight up you get stuck going through mentions, committal hearings etc for at least a year.

Then it starts all over again with mentions in the district court (or in John's case the AAT)...etc..etc until you get a court date. As a consequence the simplest cases (on paper) can drag on for years, so even if your innocent you become tempted to plead guilty just to have it over with.

Not to mention the huge financial burden you have been put under to prove your innocence! Like I said the "legal system is broken"!

That said I have to agree with Wallsofchina in regard to:
However the Federal Ombudsman may have the power to investigate what could be an abuse of process by Department of Transport and Regional Services.
....although I think you would be better going straight at CASA, being a government authority (i.e. CASA fall within the realms of the Commonwealth Ombudsman). A good brief could highlight the double standards of the regulator and the inconsistencies of their argument, which has been pointed out in the various posts in this thread.
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 11:12
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Blame game...

Wallsofchina..No point in pointing the finger at the Dept of Transport and etc.

The abuse of process hasnt been done by them. They'll flick pass you right back to CASA, the perpetrator.
You might think that DoTR and Allbeentooeasee, the "minister", would be interested in having some direction and oversight of the roque authority... but you would be very wrong.

DoTR as far a this sort of issue goes is definitely a black hole, severely infected with administratium. Been there, done that and went nowhere.
CASA is a seperate planet and a law unto itself.

While the ombuds investigations can examine the whole disgusting episode, and agree with you that it is a disgusting episode, they can't order CASA to do anything: they can only recommend and CASA doesn't have to do sfa.
So that too, is a waste of time. Been there, done that as well.

Looks like only a court can order CASA to give the man his licence back, but thats a long and expensive ? route to follow.
And of course CASA, like a mangy rottweiller with a bone, will not give it up, and they have an unlimited taxpayer wallet to plunder for the fight.

Any legal minds out there that can advise on an efficient way to tackle this sort of problem.?
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 20:10
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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To take a mans license and livelihood from him based on the word and video clip of a convicted criminal beggars belief. It must also be extremely hurtful and embarrassing for the decent moral employees of CASA when a small but very corrupt group can make the whole organization the subject of contempt and ridicule. eg I've heard that based on their firm belief that the camera doesn't lie they now have their sights set on a certain Doctor after viewing yet another film clip. Charges so far are Flying without a License, Carrying unrestrained Passengers, Unauthorized Landings, Dangerous Flying, and Unauthorized Deep Space Travel in a blue police box not registered as an aircraft. Careful study of the clip continues to determine whether any further offenses have been committed. There's plenty of footage - should keep them occupied for a while!
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 22:16
  #97 (permalink)  

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bit of thread drift here, the thrust of the original thread was essentially malicious and vindictive misconduct of the North Queensland Area Office.

Nothing new here, step back in time a few years, remember UZU Air, Cape York Airlines, Aero Tropics, Pacific Seaplanes, Midstate Airlines, etc.

Remember the reign of terror imposed by a little man with a moustache?

That particular misfit even bastardised three of his own FOI's,
one of whom was pushed over the top of his mental health limits and now remains a Comcare benefits recipient.

To appease the masses, Malleson Stephens Jaques QC / SC Skehill was commissioned, at a taxpayer cost of $84,000, to establish that there was no problem.

Regrettably, for CASA, a few months later it was found that the little man with the moustache had overstepped the mark.

He and some of his band of co conspirators were invited to seek opportunities outside of CASA, and left with Golden handshakes.

The Nuremburg defence was used by some of the guilty, "I was just following orders".

So the current crew of misfits did learn something from the past, simply,
misconduct is condoned at the highest levels and will never be punished.

If they do get caught out, no problems, golden parachutes are available.

Hence the situation perpetuates, as Quandrio found out.

Interesting that one of the cards from the Manual of Standards for Dirty Tricks was played,
i.e. CASA, to flex their muscles, invoke the "you must terminate bloggs and we will go easy on you".
This card has frequently been played in many regions.

And to cap it off, one of the ethics committee is none other than a person named and involved in the Polar Aviation bastardry.

Nothing will ever change until accountability and appropriate disciplinary or punitive action is introduced into CASA's Charter.

CASA, the Model Litigant proponent!
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 23:42
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Daleks required....

Rutan ... dont suppose you know where there are any second hand Daleks
available?. Even u/s ones would do. Could put em thru the workshop for a fix up before turning them loose to do the required job.
In the current environment, what they called out as they trundled about, is surely,sorely required.

Remember the quote from Napolean Bonaparte.?
"Never ascribe to malice, that which is adequately explained by incompetence"

I think he was very wrong. With certain CASA persons you can apply both.

Incompetence bred of laziness and ignorance. Malice as a natural trait of power crazy SOBs, who will stop at nothing, at great cost to the taxpayer and the victims, to demonstrate that (abuse of) power.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 00:39
  #99 (permalink)  

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Blackhand

yes, one of the operators was a bit dodgy, I deliberately included one, fishing for comments.

I will not divulge which one, but have first hand knowledge aquired by direct observation.

Do you have first hand knowledge as well, or anectdotal / third party bar talk.

CASA have a penchant for pursuing allegations of an anectdotal nature or from disgruntled ex employees of an operator.

Agreed that where there is smoke there is probably fire,
but careful investigation should establish whether hard evidence is available to prosecute.

I have no time for dodgy operators and hope that they will be encouraged to become compliant.
If not, prosecute them, not play with them via the AAT.

Do you disagree that misconduct by certain FOI's and Team Leaders occurs from time to time?

I have met and co existed with both professional and ethical FOI's, and regrettably with some of the rogue element.

The never to be published Venn report substantiates the existance of CASA misconduct in Nth Qld.

With the re emerging of misconduct in Nth Qld it is a management problem that is not being adequately addressed by the area manager.

Bruce Byron, to his credit, and after being made aware of unpalable facts, cleaned up that office.

Maybe its time to shine a light back into that hole?
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 00:48
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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AROA
I'd try 'Fort Fumble'. The indications are that there's a heap of Daleks there all in first class condition. Ask for the Aviation Extermination Department. I hear it's currently winding down as it has almost finished the job. Avoid the ugly bald-headed half robot guy with all the tubes hanging off him.
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