Starting out

[DancingDog]

G'day
I'm a young bloke wanting to start a career as a pilot in a couple of years and would like some advice.
My ultimate goal is to after many years become an airline pilot flying for he majors. I would like some advice on the best way to start out. I've decided that the REX cadetship is a trap so I'm not going down that path. I'm weighing up whether to go into flight school and (hopefully) get into GA, or become a pilot with the military, get paid to train and then serve for the minimum period. However I would like to know if the defence force training even gets me my CPL, MECIR & ATPL and if airlines recruit people with military flying experience but no civilian experience.
The big pull for the DF option is that I get paid while training, instead of paying around $100k for the lot.
Any advice re GA entry or financial options would be great.
Cheers

[Keg]

If you're going to try and get in the military just 'for the training' then the odds are the selection process will find you out and you won't get in. If that's the avenue you choose then be committed to joining the military and serving as a pilot rather than seeing it as a cheap training option. Keep in mind the lengthy return of service required by the military which means you're unlikely to be joining an airline south of 30. That has implications for your seniority number and subsequent promotion, lifestyle, etc in the airline.

As to the second part of your question, yes airlines take military pilots. I think you can get a CPL once you've finished your first operational conversion after wings test but you'd need a military person to confirm that- which I'm not.

Funding options? Get a job, work hard, study hard, spend every cent you can on your flying education.

[DancingDog]

Thanks, looks like if I want to get in to GA then flight school & outback cessna is the best way to start out. Any other advice is welcome

[mugzy]

Don't forget to look into flight instructing as well. It is one of the best ways of gaining experience in the industry and is a very handy rating to have.

[Seabreeze]

How to Proceed?

Hi DD

Here are some thoughts
1) Make sure you do maths and physics at year 12, as maths is required and physics is very, very useful as background to CPL/ATPL subjects. If you don't do year 12, go to Point 3. (But in any case look to see if high school maths is required by your prospective airline employer).
2) If your ATAR is good enough when finishing year 12, suggest you consider doing a degree in aviation (or science or engineering where you can learn some more technical or aviation management background). A degree will take a little longer but a good degree will give you some back-up later as well as some slight advantage as selection committees will be able to see you have additional capability to absorb information, and are motivated. However, some aviation degrees are only just an excuse to do CPL via fee-help (which is a loan and will cost a lot more in the long run), and some have very poor academic subjects alongside the flying. You don't need a degree to get a job as a pilot (in Australia), but without one if you lose your aviation medical you may find life tough.
3) Whether you do or do not do a degree, be very careful where you do your training; there is a huge range of quality out there (and the airlines know it), as well as a range of costs so be careful of what you sign up for vs what you get. Never pay all your training fees up front; make sure there is a schedule. If you can train full-time then that will be more effective for you; but if you can't then make sure the flying school can meet your needs in terms of instructor availability (schools with cadetship contracts may give preference to the cadets, leaving the private flying students as 2nd priority).
4) Read the fine print about cadetships: they vary greatly in cost, (up-front as well as return of service; repayment schedules etc) and are varied in what you get afterwards in terms of command time and onward job committment. As far as I know no cadetships in Australia guarantee jobs even if your record is spotless! So you will end up paying in one way or another no matter what. Cadetships also stamp their airline logo on your forehead (so to speak), so if you need to apply somewhere else your previous history of affiliation is clear. This may or may not be an advantage.

There is lots of more detailed info on pprune about individual programs and organisations, time spent researching will not be wasted.

good luck
Seabreeze

[tinpis]

A healthy dose of this works grand



nepotism
[nep-uh-tiz-uhm]   Example Sentences Origin Like this word?
nep·o·tism
   /ˈnɛpəˌtɪzəm/ Show Spelled[nep-uh-tiz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
patronage bestowed or favoritism shown on the basis of family relationship, as in business and politics: She was accused of nepotism when she made her nephew an officer of the firm.
Origin:

[mattyj]

The airlines don't know or care much about where you trained because the quality varies from year to year. Just be a total sycophant every day as you go through because references really count and the egos in this industry are a disgrace to humanity!

[Seabreeze]

Nepotism: forgot that one

Various methodologies

Be a relative of someone in power
Marry someone in power
Have an affair with someone in power
Marry someone whose father/mother etc is in power
Have your son/daughter marry someone who is, or whose father/mother is in power
Have your wife run off with someone in power

Must be others: sorry DD for the drift.

SB

[DancingDog]

Thanks guys for your help, very useful.
Just wondering if anyone can recommend any certain flight schools that they know are good & why(no spam please).
Thanks
DD

[jas24zzk]

You missed one Seabreeze...

Buy the Company


Seriously tho,
what seabreeze said about choice of training organisation is not totally true. Sometimes (as it was for me) choice of instructor was more important. I did my GFPT with one company, and then went in search of an Instructor for my PPL.

How you relate to your instructor is important. You must be able to remove that 'feeling' of my instructor is god, and work with your instructor at a level where he has the 'authority' over you to actually teach some, but maintaining the ability to question what you are being taught. If you can't do that, then you will become a factory product.

Quite often, when people ask you where you trained, the very next question is WHO (ie the instructors name) did you your training. It can generate 3 responses....1. dunno him, 2. he's not bad or 3. REALLY!.... response 3 is the one you want.

Some of the career instructors have reputations, and MIGHT open doors for you.


Mugzy suggested Instructing. I started writing a post against this, and was disturbed several hours ago.
Instructing isn't for everyone, and nor is it a fast way into the airlines. I thought I would mention against it, due to the original posters comments of heading bush to fly crashna's.

It is possible to succeed in a major city without going bush. Mate of mine recently accepted into RFDS, never went bush, never instructed, but picked up a good job driving light twins, they assisted him getting his MECIR, began flying bizjets as well. For him, it was a matter of knocking on doors demanding a job.

There are so many options in aviation, and realistically, it doesn't all revolve around driving sausage tubes.

cheers
Jas

LIVE THE DREAM

[jas24zzk]

Thanks guys for your help, very useful.
Just wondering if anyone can recommend any certain flight schools that they know are good & why(no spam please).
Thanks
DD

You would need to reveal your location, even in a general area...i.e NE Melbourne for some solid answers on this.

Living at home with the ordinary olds is an advantage for self funded training.


Cheers
Jas

[jas24zzk]

A point we might have missed in our advice is.............. why not go MIL and make a career of it?

nothing wrong with that aviation path.......

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Don't forget to look into flight instructing as well. It is one of the best ways of gaining experience in the industry and is a very handy rating to have.

If you want to go instructing just to build hours without making 100% effort, forget it. The last thing this industry needs is people passing on substandard skills to the next generation of pilots.

I'm sure you wouldn't want your instructor to be half hearted in their efforts to teach you?

[jas24zzk]

my point exacery!

[DancingDog]

Dumb question: What does MIL stand for?
I live in Melbourne and have researched MFS & MFT at moorabin. To get CPL, ME endorsement & MECIR, MFT is a few K cheaper and with more total flight hours, wonder if there is a catch.
If anyone can recommend a flight school in MEL than I'd like to know.
Thanks

[DK08]

There's definitely no catch at MFT. They are a great school and I'm sure a bit of research with the search tool will back me up.

If you give them a ring or e mail them, the CFI is sure to organize a time for you to come in and can explain everything for you

DK

[The Bunglerat]

If you want to go instructing just to build hours without making 100% effort, forget it. The last thing this industry needs is people passing on substandard skills to the next generation of pilots.

I concur. That said, there's nothing wrong with using instructing as a vehicle towards reaching your ultimate goal of flying for a regional or major airline. Just make sure that, whilst you are instructing, that you do put in the aforementioned 100 percent.

Furthermore, & at the risk of sounding like some kind of TV motivational evangelist, I would suggest that a big part of achieving any goal in life (aviation related or otherwise) is to utilise the powers of visualisation. And by that, I mean that you need to be able to visualise yourself having already achieved the goal you are working towards. Try to imagine the prize in your hands, so to speak, & what it feels like, then work backwards from there. If you know where you ultimately want to be - & what it will be like when you actually are there - consider where you are right now, & then trace the steps required in order to get to where you want to be. I could map it all out for you, step by step, but that would only deprive you of the opportunity to figure it out for yourself - & there's no fun in that.

[E&H]

My advice...if you're not totally committed to the military they will probably sus it out during the interview...having said that if I had my druthers again I would pursue the military simply because I started my first job in aviation when I was 27 and the reality is you do have time at age 27-30 yrs old (granted the earlier you start it's often better, but a lot depends on the individual) to continue a career outside the military...plus the training is second to none and it's free...excepting for return of service.

Failing that my next best advice is to go to uni but not for a degree in aviation (you wouldn't buy shares in just one company you would spread the risk so why would you seek to be so specialised in aviation)...do something else so that if it doesn't work out you have something real to fall back on...then do your CPL etc.

Next is to go down the direct route whereby you complete CPL as well as ATPL subjects...maybe even get your instrument rating, multi engine...then hightail it west, north or wherever you can get a job...don't p#%% around sitting around waiting for a job to come up in the airport just down the road from you.

My reasons for suggesting these ways is because a lot of airlines could care less if you have an aviation degree, granted they do like to see some form of higher education hence do something outside of aviation that gives you options.

GA is a great teacher about the beginnings of what command is all about...it has it's limitations though (the airlines will spend some time untraining some of the things learnt in GA)...so the sooner you can move on the better...instructing reinforces theory learnt in flight school and it has it's limitations as well...unless of course you like GA or instructing in which case that's fine.

Food for thought and sounds like your doing the right thing seeking as much advice as possible and then deciding what's best for you.

My last bit of advice is to sit down and have a good think why you are about to embark on this choice of career...it's easy to say I love flying and if were only that easy I would say go for it we need keen and motivated pilots coming through the ranks to support the industry...but aviation as a career in it's own way is a poisoned chalice...keep asking questions.