MERGED: Alligator Airways Grounded
Guest
Posts: n/a
All the pilot names involved are all public in the federal court rulings.
The video clearly shows the pilot having a laugh and big grin when offloading the pax after the incident. Hopefully no-one in the industry forgets his face and name.... and surely CASA will be revoking his licence (even temporarily), as has happened to other pilots through KNX. Rumours are around regarding CASA leading towards criminal proceedings.
Gotta have something special about you to try to laugh this incident off, especially when you knew you were flying a aircraft with a defective engine! (We all warned these guys this year; take the job at Gator and you'll be gambling with your career...hate to say told you so).
The video clearly shows the pilot having a laugh and big grin when offloading the pax after the incident. Hopefully no-one in the industry forgets his face and name.... and surely CASA will be revoking his licence (even temporarily), as has happened to other pilots through KNX. Rumours are around regarding CASA leading towards criminal proceedings.
Gotta have something special about you to try to laugh this incident off, especially when you knew you were flying a aircraft with a defective engine! (We all warned these guys this year; take the job at Gator and you'll be gambling with your career...hate to say told you so).
Last edited by tmpffisch; 9th Jun 2012 at 05:10.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: gas filled self propelled bag
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't particularly want to comment on a business I have no specific inside knowledge on...
However! ALL young guys and girls should have a look at that video! When you're starting out you might not be brave enough to say no to the boss, indeed maybe lose your job if you do. But that video shows a comparatively GOOD result of what may happen if you fly an aircraft that might not be up to scratch.
Certainly had me leaning forward in my seat watching it!
However! ALL young guys and girls should have a look at that video! When you're starting out you might not be brave enough to say no to the boss, indeed maybe lose your job if you do. But that video shows a comparatively GOOD result of what may happen if you fly an aircraft that might not be up to scratch.
Certainly had me leaning forward in my seat watching it!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: ChCh NZ
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hopefully no-one in the industry forgets his face and name....
I am sure many here are flabbergasted and at a loss to understand why CASA didn't pull the key from the ignition and toss it away... on the spot.
How he didn't kill all on board I am not sure. He certainly had a good go at trying to.
I normally feel media reporting is crap, I find it difficult to defend that video though. I feel for the pax and now look at the exposure the rest of the public are getting.
I was under the impression the new CP was going to sort that mob out.
I only hope all this has not damaged the industry too much.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ˙ǝqɐq ǝɯ ʇ,uıɐ ʇɐɥʇ 'sɔıʇɐqoɹǝɐ ɹoɟ uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɯɐu ɹıǝɥʇ ʇnd ǝɯos
Age: 45
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Incredible video, thanks for sharing.
Without commenting on the other aspects I would like to point out that we should not judge the pilots big grin too harshly. Along with other seemingly inappropriate actions giggling is a natural response of somebody in a state of shock. Not only would he still be in default host/tour guide mode he would have been very very pleased to be alive!
from an article in PsychologyToday.com:
Why We Laugh: How laughter can help build resilience
I would say that perhaps every pilot should remember this part of the video and try to ensure that after an incident like that they realise that the emergency is still not over and that leading the evacuation is still part of their duties. Perhaps a FA might have some sort of insight. (Actually, I should think that as the PIC this guy had even greater emotional liability and therefore more of a natural tendency towards nervous laughter.)
Food for thought,
FRQ CB
PS I know that this is common practice but it worth noting that "The six [passengers] were driven to the airport... by [the] pilot" (from the article). Just another overworked, underpaid and under-resourced casualty of the industry.
Without commenting on the other aspects I would like to point out that we should not judge the pilots big grin too harshly. Along with other seemingly inappropriate actions giggling is a natural response of somebody in a state of shock. Not only would he still be in default host/tour guide mode he would have been very very pleased to be alive!
from an article in PsychologyToday.com:
Why We Laugh: How laughter can help build resilience
We're signaling (sic) ourselves that whatever horrible thing we've just encountered isn't really as horrible as it appears, something we often desperately want to believe.
Food for thought,
FRQ CB
PS I know that this is common practice but it worth noting that "The six [passengers] were driven to the airport... by [the] pilot" (from the article). Just another overworked, underpaid and under-resourced casualty of the industry.
Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo; 9th Jun 2012 at 14:09.
How he didn't kill all on board I am not sure. He certainly had a good go at trying to.
Fark me,
It suddenly got real.
Before you hang the pilot out to dry you need to understand the culture that he was operating in. He was greener than an everglade, operating an aeroplane that is luckily very forgiving. It would have ended very badly if it were the 207. English is his second language and the turbocharger from what I understand was servicable prior to dispatch, however there had been reported problems with the waste gate. The owner didn't in fact tell him to dispatch it with an unserviceable turbocharger, but said if it did become unserviceable in flight, it would still fly.
Unfortunalty it failed on takeoff from what I have been informed. Read into that as you will. If it were Craig's aeroplane, he wouldn't have sent it out until he inspected it. If he did, it certainly wouldn't have been with a 200 hour pilot at the helm.
A 200 hour pilot Unfortunalty doesn't have the wisdom to say no when they should. Now with thousands of hours of hind site, guys like me would have refused the aeroplane. Would you have refused it after being told by the head engineer/owner that is was safe to fly after a brief discussion? Guys had been sacked for less. One for making a comment after being made to do the gardening springs to mind.
I also don't think that grin was a pilot who was proud of himself. That grin to me is a pilot who is living on adrenalin and probably about to come down real quick, despair would be displayed shortly after entering the pig pen.
So don't hang the guy out to dry. He was operating in an environment that under its duty of care should have nurtured him. Unfortunalty the system failed and the result is what's in the video.
It's a sad day to see this and really, those poor passengers. They are the ones who suffered. They are the ones who were let down by everybody concerned. Everyone concerned should have known a hell of a lot better. I watched that clip with my heart in my mouth.
I ashamed at ever having anything to do with the place, even though it was earlier last decade under completely different management.
Frankly I'm disgusted.
It suddenly got real.
Before you hang the pilot out to dry you need to understand the culture that he was operating in. He was greener than an everglade, operating an aeroplane that is luckily very forgiving. It would have ended very badly if it were the 207. English is his second language and the turbocharger from what I understand was servicable prior to dispatch, however there had been reported problems with the waste gate. The owner didn't in fact tell him to dispatch it with an unserviceable turbocharger, but said if it did become unserviceable in flight, it would still fly.
Unfortunalty it failed on takeoff from what I have been informed. Read into that as you will. If it were Craig's aeroplane, he wouldn't have sent it out until he inspected it. If he did, it certainly wouldn't have been with a 200 hour pilot at the helm.
A 200 hour pilot Unfortunalty doesn't have the wisdom to say no when they should. Now with thousands of hours of hind site, guys like me would have refused the aeroplane. Would you have refused it after being told by the head engineer/owner that is was safe to fly after a brief discussion? Guys had been sacked for less. One for making a comment after being made to do the gardening springs to mind.
I also don't think that grin was a pilot who was proud of himself. That grin to me is a pilot who is living on adrenalin and probably about to come down real quick, despair would be displayed shortly after entering the pig pen.
So don't hang the guy out to dry. He was operating in an environment that under its duty of care should have nurtured him. Unfortunalty the system failed and the result is what's in the video.
It's a sad day to see this and really, those poor passengers. They are the ones who suffered. They are the ones who were let down by everybody concerned. Everyone concerned should have known a hell of a lot better. I watched that clip with my heart in my mouth.
I ashamed at ever having anything to do with the place, even though it was earlier last decade under completely different management.
Frankly I'm disgusted.
Guest
Posts: n/a
TGG and FRQ, I may have been prematurely harsh on the pilot's reactions after the incident, however I was quite disgusted by his reaction; I hadn't considered it being due to shock. I would hope the pilot would have recognised early on that they were at higher risk of an incident, and had put some thought towards how to handle passengers post incident, and to continue duty of care even while you're struggling yourself.
There is no excusing the fact of course that he took WOV flying that day.
After reading the court ruling, it reads that the pilot was aware the turbo had failed prior to take-off, rather than it failing during takeoff. If the ruling is infact incorrect; based on reports I've had from onlookers what witnessed the incident, there was ample time to abort the landing, even after you factor in generous reaction time.
Interestingly, the ruling also shows that Gator would dismiss employees post incident, in an effort to 'wash their hands of it'...which we all knew took place. Strange how that didn't hold up in court though.....
There is no excusing the fact of course that he took WOV flying that day.
After reading the court ruling, it reads that the pilot was aware the turbo had failed prior to take-off, rather than it failing during takeoff. If the ruling is infact incorrect; based on reports I've had from onlookers what witnessed the incident, there was ample time to abort the landing, even after you factor in generous reaction time.
Interestingly, the ruling also shows that Gator would dismiss employees post incident, in an effort to 'wash their hands of it'...which we all knew took place. Strange how that didn't hold up in court though.....
Last edited by tmpffisch; 9th Jun 2012 at 09:47.
TF
You can rehearse to your hearts content on how you react under emergency conditions.
The only time you learn, is when it happens to you. Thankfully sims teach you a lot about yourself concurrently with the aeroplane these days.
Never judge. It could have been mine or your face at that door or anyone.
You can generally tell the experience of a pilot by the way they cast their stones.
learn from it and hope that if it happens to you, from this pilots misfortune you have learned something valuable.
You can rehearse to your hearts content on how you react under emergency conditions.
The only time you learn, is when it happens to you. Thankfully sims teach you a lot about yourself concurrently with the aeroplane these days.
Never judge. It could have been mine or your face at that door or anyone.
You can generally tell the experience of a pilot by the way they cast their stones.
learn from it and hope that if it happens to you, from this pilots misfortune you have learned something valuable.
So don't hang the guy out to dry. He was operating in an environment that under its duty of care should have nurtured him. Unfortunalty the system failed and the result is what's in the video.
There is some culpability on the part of the pilot but IMHO the environment created by RK (which has been the subject of many many posts on here over the last 3-5 years) is what truly caused this event.
I'd also say the decisions made by this pilot were made from a long chain of bad ones made by others.
Aeroplane changes, commercial pressure, maintenance issues, rushing, self imposed pressure, client pressure, it all lined up on this occasion to produce an undesirable outcome.
At the end of the day this poor fella was just trying to get a leg up like all of us in the industry and got himself in a bit of a bind.
I know for a fact that at 200 hours I would have discussed the same issues with the same engineer and been in that same seat after hearing the same responses to my raised concerns. Does that make me a bad pilot? No. It makes me an inexperienced one. Experience comes the hard way in this game.
When he opened the door he was probably putting on a brave face, trying to salvage what was left of his, and the companies credibility. You certainly wouldn't open the door in tears.
So if you see this poor bugger who is down on his luck looking for work, buy the man a beer and give him some words of encouragement. I certainly would.
And CASA, (i know youre reading this) instead of going after him, how about showing him some compassion and help him. It may be a chance to actually engage with industry and show that you are not after the little guy. You are there to support and educate them. You know, safe skies for all?
Perhaps some free briefs on EFATOs and a one hour lesson on them would be some good PR.
See these guys need protection from the industry just as much as the public. It's like going after the guy with a drug addiction instead of the dealer.
Food for thought?
Aeroplane changes, commercial pressure, maintenance issues, rushing, self imposed pressure, client pressure, it all lined up on this occasion to produce an undesirable outcome.
At the end of the day this poor fella was just trying to get a leg up like all of us in the industry and got himself in a bit of a bind.
I know for a fact that at 200 hours I would have discussed the same issues with the same engineer and been in that same seat after hearing the same responses to my raised concerns. Does that make me a bad pilot? No. It makes me an inexperienced one. Experience comes the hard way in this game.
When he opened the door he was probably putting on a brave face, trying to salvage what was left of his, and the companies credibility. You certainly wouldn't open the door in tears.
So if you see this poor bugger who is down on his luck looking for work, buy the man a beer and give him some words of encouragement. I certainly would.
And CASA, (i know youre reading this) instead of going after him, how about showing him some compassion and help him. It may be a chance to actually engage with industry and show that you are not after the little guy. You are there to support and educate them. You know, safe skies for all?
Perhaps some free briefs on EFATOs and a one hour lesson on them would be some good PR.
See these guys need protection from the industry just as much as the public. It's like going after the guy with a drug addiction instead of the dealer.
Food for thought?
So many things wrong with that article and how it is written, including those adjectives straight out of this:
The Lazy Journalists Plane Story Generator
Seems an important factor was a misunderstanding of English among many other things. I thought that was supposed to be addressed with the ICAO english language tests. Big diffference between being able to continue flying if a supercharger fails, and continuing a take off wihout take off power when there is enough runway to abort.
This video would be good for education about the old chestnut of not turning back after EFATO - shows what it actually looks like.
A good case study for the swiss cheese principle... no winners out of this situation.
The Lazy Journalists Plane Story Generator
Seems an important factor was a misunderstanding of English among many other things. I thought that was supposed to be addressed with the ICAO english language tests. Big diffference between being able to continue flying if a supercharger fails, and continuing a take off wihout take off power when there is enough runway to abort.
This video would be good for education about the old chestnut of not turning back after EFATO - shows what it actually looks like.
A good case study for the swiss cheese principle... no winners out of this situation.
Last edited by Clare Prop; 9th Jun 2012 at 11:38.
Given the (presumed) error in getting airborne, I thought he did a pretty good job. A finely judged bit of flying, under conditions of considerable stress.
Soft failures can be the hardest to deal with.
Soft failures can be the hardest to deal with.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: mum and dads place
Age: 34
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GG, I will go one further. I actually think that CASA need to take someresponsibility for what has been going on in the East Kimberly the last fewyears. If CASA had not approved such low time inexperienced CPs over the2009-2011 period then Maybe RK would not have gotten away with as much as hedid, for as long as he did.
Ultimately it is the CP that is responsible for ALL flyingoperations and crew rostering conducted within a company. Owners/management maybe able to try and make pilots fly poorly maintained aircraft, fly overweight, totallydisregard F&D times or sack pilots thatrefuse to fly aircraft they deem unserviceable but NO CP should stand by andknowingly let any of this happen. Yet this seems to be exactly what has occurred.
CASA approved CPs that met the absolute bare minimumrequirements to hold the position. Pilots with minimal leadership andmanagement experience, poor communication skills, the inability to lead byexample (as their professional knowledge and industry experience was totallyinadequate) and most of all the inability or total lack of desire to carry out themost important role of a CP, mentoring, guiding and generally looking out for thepilots they are in charge of.
Maybe I am missing something but I do think the regulatorshould take a long hard look at itself. Maybe if they considered working withthe industry rather than against it then they might develop some trust. Maybethen pilots that encounter operations like Alligator would be more inclined tospeak up and report them rather than worrying about any repercussions forthings they were made to do while employed (ie bust F&D, fly overweight etcetc).
Nice to see CASA finally catch up with RK, I have beenwaiting a very loooong time for this day. Pity Gator had to go bust but it was reallythe only way that it was ever going to end.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: turn L @ Taupo, just past the Niagra Falls...
Posts: 596
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FrqCB -incredibly well spoken. You've hit all the points worth considering. Fair to say my arse was puckered watching that vid. It speaks volumes of the culture this pilot was operating within.
TGG I often have issue with your contributions and attitiude, but this time you've hit the nail. CASA paying attention tho? Good luck with that. They'll go after the easy-beat every time.
PinC responsibility in this age of PC and automation must be reinforced and emphasised until it engrained.
baron_beeza -generally concur, but to hang & dry the PinC without consideration of his experience, the culture of his environment and the operational conditions of the day would IMO be inappropriate. We both know better -and have seen it happen.
Horatio -of course there are errors of judgement by PinC, and I agree, there were deeper issues underlying this... but still attempting a 2nd departure with a known serious fault... wow.
There's plenty of blame to be laid about in light of the apparent evidence... who knows what else lies about?
Damn MG -that's a broad brush you're painting with! I flew with Ged only briefly over the space of only a few days -not weeks- but was impressed (and occasionally frustrated) by his professionalism and adherence to promulgated procedures. I have no doubt that his standards were challenged by his employer, having followed the discussions here with interest.
TGG I often have issue with your contributions and attitiude, but this time you've hit the nail. CASA paying attention tho? Good luck with that. They'll go after the easy-beat every time.
PinC responsibility in this age of PC and automation must be reinforced and emphasised until it engrained.
baron_beeza -generally concur, but to hang & dry the PinC without consideration of his experience, the culture of his environment and the operational conditions of the day would IMO be inappropriate. We both know better -and have seen it happen.
Horatio -of course there are errors of judgement by PinC, and I agree, there were deeper issues underlying this... but still attempting a 2nd departure with a known serious fault... wow.
There's plenty of blame to be laid about in light of the apparent evidence... who knows what else lies about?
Damn MG -that's a broad brush you're painting with! I flew with Ged only briefly over the space of only a few days -not weeks- but was impressed (and occasionally frustrated) by his professionalism and adherence to promulgated procedures. I have no doubt that his standards were challenged by his employer, having followed the discussions here with interest.
Last edited by RadioSaigon; 11th Jun 2012 at 02:12.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ˙ǝqɐq ǝɯ ʇ,uıɐ ʇɐɥʇ 'sɔıʇɐqoɹǝɐ ɹoɟ uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɯɐu ɹıǝɥʇ ʇnd ǝɯos
Age: 45
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks RadioSaigon,
You are very right in what you are saying about JS (like hundreds of pilots here I have dual time under him and found him to be a wealth of information and a beacon of the rule of law).
However to be fair to MG I think that it's important to note that MG did specify 2009-2011 which is outside of JS's time at Gator. (That's not to say that the rest of the post could infer culpability on JS so your post is not inaccurate nor misleading.)
FRQ CB
You are very right in what you are saying about JS (like hundreds of pilots here I have dual time under him and found him to be a wealth of information and a beacon of the rule of law).
However to be fair to MG I think that it's important to note that MG did specify 2009-2011 which is outside of JS's time at Gator. (That's not to say that the rest of the post could infer culpability on JS so your post is not inaccurate nor misleading.)
FRQ CB
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ˙ǝqɐq ǝɯ ʇ,uıɐ ʇɐɥʇ 'sɔıʇɐqoɹǝɐ ɹoɟ uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɯɐu ɹıǝɥʇ ʇnd ǝɯos
Age: 45
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an aside
As an aside,
I will not speak ill of the past CPs from Gator because I never had negative [professional] dealings with any of them however I knew three of them professionally and I can say that as an impressionable junior pilot I always respected their position.
I do remember a Gator CP turning down a flight due to DG concerns which we ended up taking on (in this particular instance with this particular model we were in receipt of a differing opinion from a Perth-based DG education provider). This was a profitable run and there were idle Gator aircraft and aircrew sitting ready for work so it spoke highly to me of that particular CP's gumption with sticking to what he believed to be an illicit flight.
Props to that pilot.
FRQ CB
I will not speak ill of the past CPs from Gator because I never had negative [professional] dealings with any of them however I knew three of them professionally and I can say that as an impressionable junior pilot I always respected their position.
I do remember a Gator CP turning down a flight due to DG concerns which we ended up taking on (in this particular instance with this particular model we were in receipt of a differing opinion from a Perth-based DG education provider). This was a profitable run and there were idle Gator aircraft and aircrew sitting ready for work so it spoke highly to me of that particular CP's gumption with sticking to what he believed to be an illicit flight.
Props to that pilot.
FRQ CB
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ˙ǝqɐq ǝɯ ʇ,uıɐ ʇɐɥʇ 'sɔıʇɐqoɹǝɐ ɹoɟ uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɯɐu ɹıǝɥʇ ʇnd ǝɯos
Age: 45
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Checkerboard,
Hear hear! Give me a clean cut hard failure over a soft failure any day. (Just ask the crew of British Midland Flight 92 who had a clean failure but still fell into the classic traps of the soft failure.)
FRQ CB
I thought he did a pretty good job. A finely judged bit of flying...
Soft failures can be the hardest to deal with.
Soft failures can be the hardest to deal with.
FRQ CB
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: mum and dads place
Age: 34
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If CASA had not approved such low time inexperienced CPs over the2009-2011
period
period
CASA approved CPs that met the absolute bare minimum requirements to hold the
position. Pilots with minimal leadership and management experience, poor
communication skills, the inability to lead by example (as their professional
knowledge and industry experience was totally inadequate)
position. Pilots with minimal leadership and management experience, poor
communication skills, the inability to lead by example (as their professional
knowledge and industry experience was totally inadequate)
Last edited by morning_glory; 9th Jun 2012 at 21:49.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: ChCh NZ
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RS is right about my earlier comments. We have both been there and done that with similar companies back when.
I appreciate the demand placed on these junior pilots but that is where the CP is the captain of the ship.
I thought the video was scary... perhaps a lot worse than what the pilot was seeing out the windscreen.
What I was amazed at was the ease these blokes accept an unserviceable aircraft and then load fare paying passengers onto it.
Speaking as a LAME now..
I am a little confused over whether the pilot knew the Turbo was dodgy. From the comments made by the reporter I assumed he thought he could take off with it U/S.
To me that come down to procedure, was the defect written up. Was it cleared in an acceptable manner. Was the aircraft suitable for the task ?
I think we can all guess the answers.
If the defect was not written up then who's fault is that ?
Was that the culture ? report a defect and you are down the road..
I also worry about who told him it was ok to fly. Was it a LAME ?
How did he declare the aircraft serviceable ?
Why did the engineers not demand defects to be reported...
The biggest question perhaps should be why CASA didn't act sooner.
I appreciate the demand placed on these junior pilots but that is where the CP is the captain of the ship.
I thought the video was scary... perhaps a lot worse than what the pilot was seeing out the windscreen.
What I was amazed at was the ease these blokes accept an unserviceable aircraft and then load fare paying passengers onto it.
Speaking as a LAME now..
I am a little confused over whether the pilot knew the Turbo was dodgy. From the comments made by the reporter I assumed he thought he could take off with it U/S.
To me that come down to procedure, was the defect written up. Was it cleared in an acceptable manner. Was the aircraft suitable for the task ?
I think we can all guess the answers.
If the defect was not written up then who's fault is that ?
Was that the culture ? report a defect and you are down the road..
I also worry about who told him it was ok to fly. Was it a LAME ?
How did he declare the aircraft serviceable ?
Why did the engineers not demand defects to be reported...
The biggest question perhaps should be why CASA didn't act sooner.