MERGED: Alligator Airways Grounded
My premonitions on here were in fact correct.
CASA would ground them in the busy season when rob was trying to stoke up the bank account to get himself sorted.
If they make it through the dry, they certainly won't make it through the wet.
I hope with fingers crossed that Craig comes back, gets the place cheap as chips and builds her up again. It would be a shame to see alligator itself go, but many of us will be celebrating to see Mr Aztec and his personal
problems dissapear.
You reap what you sow.
It's a disgrace to see what's happened to the place since Craig departed. The good old days hey! Hangar Beers and BBQs, team work, comradere with the troops. Monty stories. Man it was fun!
Aviation is like a brick wall. You can pull a few bricks out here and there and the wall will still stand. Pull too many out and she will come a tumbling down.
80% power in the vans was the catalyst. Said it many times on here but engineers always think they know better than the pilots who operate them!
Glad to see Ged has seen the writing on the wall and is out of there. I wonder if anyone is brave enough to step into his shoes?
CASA would ground them in the busy season when rob was trying to stoke up the bank account to get himself sorted.
If they make it through the dry, they certainly won't make it through the wet.
I hope with fingers crossed that Craig comes back, gets the place cheap as chips and builds her up again. It would be a shame to see alligator itself go, but many of us will be celebrating to see Mr Aztec and his personal
problems dissapear.
You reap what you sow.
It's a disgrace to see what's happened to the place since Craig departed. The good old days hey! Hangar Beers and BBQs, team work, comradere with the troops. Monty stories. Man it was fun!
Aviation is like a brick wall. You can pull a few bricks out here and there and the wall will still stand. Pull too many out and she will come a tumbling down.
80% power in the vans was the catalyst. Said it many times on here but engineers always think they know better than the pilots who operate them!
Glad to see Ged has seen the writing on the wall and is out of there. I wonder if anyone is brave enough to step into his shoes?
Last edited by The Green Goblin; 4th May 2012 at 02:31.
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Alligator Air Grounded
Any news on whats happening down at Alligator now? How long the suspension may last etc etc? Great time to be up here in Kununurra looking for a job!! 
CASA website
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Alligator airways operations suspended
CASA website
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Alligator airways operations suspended
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Theda would have been one of them. One of the pilots almost crashed conducting a turnback after takeoff last weekend.
Looking at CASA's press release, I'd bet that they're not only going to go after Alligator, but they'll look at suspending or prosecuting some of the pilots working there also.
Looking at CASA's press release, I'd bet that they're not only going to go after Alligator, but they'll look at suspending or prosecuting some of the pilots working there also.
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Surely this would have to be the final straw for Alligator. If CASA has any balls whatsoever they would apply to have the suspension extended and they would do everything in their power to shut the place down. RK has had misdemeanor after misdemeanor after misdemeanor, and treated it like it is a game with CASA. Well i think the game is now up and it looks like the regulator will finally win. If they are allowed back in the air and then there is a fatality, it will go down as one of the biggest errors in judgement that CASA has ever made, and it will infact make them look more inept than Kendrick himself.
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I hope with fingers crossed that Craig comes back, gets the place cheap as chips and builds her up again
80% power in the vans was the catalyst
The problems are far more deeply rooted than 80% power on TC Airvans.
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Dumb, Dumber and Dumbest.
Discussed in depth at the Barroom Barristers convention (pub last night), CASA got the primary sympathy vote (4-2), industry the preference vote.
This sort of stuff leaves the regulator with little choice it's 'iron fist' (or Bar if you prefer) time, it's not on, and both suffer. It's a sad thing for all involved.
It is a very easy thing for an operator to intimidate, bully or fire one pilot for refusing to fly an aircraft which is not up to snuff. If everyone said – 'No way Horse' then it becomes a difficult matter.
A Chief Pilot has some heavy duty backup available if the operator won't play nice; CASA supervised operations for a month or so would very quickly get the message across
Could this all have been prevented ?, it certainly appears so.
Just my AUD 00.20, no steam.
This sort of stuff leaves the regulator with little choice it's 'iron fist' (or Bar if you prefer) time, it's not on, and both suffer. It's a sad thing for all involved.
It is a very easy thing for an operator to intimidate, bully or fire one pilot for refusing to fly an aircraft which is not up to snuff. If everyone said – 'No way Horse' then it becomes a difficult matter.
A Chief Pilot has some heavy duty backup available if the operator won't play nice; CASA supervised operations for a month or so would very quickly get the message across
Could this all have been prevented ?, it certainly appears so.
Just my AUD 00.20, no steam.
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"A Chief Pilot has some heavy duty backup available if the operator won't play nice; CASA supervised operations for a month or so would very quickly get the message across"
If it was the FAA that is the more likely scenario.They are always reluctant to shut down what could be a viable business and throw innocent parties out of work.
It would be a brave chief pilot in OZ who sought CASA help, because they'd crucify him as well as the company.
CASA simply dont give a toss, we are all criminals anyway, as long as they get their bonuses, promotion and at the end a fat super, why would they be interested in fostering the industry they get paid whether their competent or not.
If it was the FAA that is the more likely scenario.They are always reluctant to shut down what could be a viable business and throw innocent parties out of work.
It would be a brave chief pilot in OZ who sought CASA help, because they'd crucify him as well as the company.
CASA simply dont give a toss, we are all criminals anyway, as long as they get their bonuses, promotion and at the end a fat super, why would they be interested in fostering the industry they get paid whether their competent or not.
Last edited by thorn bird; 5th May 2012 at 09:33.
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Yes, Alligator do operate WNI.
She used to be a nice plane to fly... Even the locals in Kalumburu had a name for her... Nyum Nyum
She used to be a nice plane to fly... Even the locals in Kalumburu had a name for her... Nyum Nyum
Last edited by Nose wheel first; 5th May 2012 at 13:45.
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Rose coloured specs (RCS).
TB - If it was the FAA that is the more likely scenario. They are always reluctant to shut down what could be a viable business and throw innocent parties out of work.
TB - It would be a brave chief pilot in OZ who sought CASA help, because they'd crucify him as well as the company.
FOD #14 - the fact casa approved such a young and relatively inexperienced pilot as the cp only compounded matters.
NWF #15 - I'd love to know how many of these were reported to the ATSB & CASA.... if past form is anything to go on none of them would have been! How many of the pilots who had the engine failures in the last 2 months were fired like last time?
GG #21 - I couldn't get my head around running the cans at 80% power with a 300 hour pilot at the helm. The TIO-540 is a great engine and will make its TBO if you look after it and run it at 65%
HJ #23 - Stand up to him by refusing to bend the rules and you are dismissed on the spot...where is the support from the CP ???? hahahahaha - # 23 - All they would have to do is seek out some of the ex CPs and pilots that have worked there in the last 3 years. Some of the stories they could tell...
TG # 28 - But seriously I am still astounded at the level of malpractice and negligence that has continued there completely unchecked. It was bad when I left, but it seems to be even worse now.
FOD # 43 - More than anything the place needs a new owner. A CP that is willing to stand up for the boys and lead by example is a good start but I'm not really sure if that is what RK wants in a CP.
NWF #46 - Past CP's and line pilots alike have been given the flick because they questioned (and rightly so) maintenance standards, aircraft servicability, flight and duty breaches, pressure to operate well outside the regs etc etc etc.
AP # 79 - “These incidents involved forced landings where CASA believes employees of Alligator Airways were aware of significant defects affecting the safety of aircraft prior to flight,” CASA said.
TMP #86 - Looking at CASA's press release, I'd bet that they're not only going to go after Alligator, but they'll look at suspending or prosecuting some of the pilots working there also.
My bold.
NWF #15 - I'd love to know how many of these were reported to the ATSB & CASA.... if past form is anything to go on none of them would have been! How many of the pilots who had the engine failures in the last 2 months were fired like last time?
GG #21 - I couldn't get my head around running the cans at 80% power with a 300 hour pilot at the helm. The TIO-540 is a great engine and will make its TBO if you look after it and run it at 65%
HJ #23 - Stand up to him by refusing to bend the rules and you are dismissed on the spot...where is the support from the CP ???? hahahahaha - # 23 - All they would have to do is seek out some of the ex CPs and pilots that have worked there in the last 3 years. Some of the stories they could tell...
TG # 28 - But seriously I am still astounded at the level of malpractice and negligence that has continued there completely unchecked. It was bad when I left, but it seems to be even worse now.
FOD # 43 - More than anything the place needs a new owner. A CP that is willing to stand up for the boys and lead by example is a good start but I'm not really sure if that is what RK wants in a CP.
NWF #46 - Past CP's and line pilots alike have been given the flick because they questioned (and rightly so) maintenance standards, aircraft servicability, flight and duty breaches, pressure to operate well outside the regs etc etc etc.
AP # 79 - “These incidents involved forced landings where CASA believes employees of Alligator Airways were aware of significant defects affecting the safety of aircraft prior to flight,” CASA said.
TMP #86 - Looking at CASA's press release, I'd bet that they're not only going to go after Alligator, but they'll look at suspending or prosecuting some of the pilots working there also.
My bold.
That the culture of fear is deeply entrenched and well proven; but here you always come back to how was this mess allowed to continue without mutual positive intervention. It always leaves the messy problem of who can be relied on. If CASA was always 'honest' and the motives clear there could be a different take, but alas, instead of being able to applaud a shutdown after much effort, we end up back at the same old place.
But still, it seems (IMO), at face value that the regulator had little choice in this instance. If only 'they' could be reported to and trusted, if only they'd reported, then maybe, perhaps.
Last edited by Kharon; 5th May 2012 at 20:50. Reason: more haste - less speed.
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Kharon, I assume your “Quote” is from a previous thread. If the contents are true then it beggars belief that this company wasn’t shutdown long ago.
Then again one could perhaps ask how did it get to that stage in the first place?
A “proactive” regulator like the FAA are reluctant to shutdown what could be a viable business. They step in long before it gets to that stage and via mentoring and supervision restore a company to compliance and safe operation, and if management still dont get the message?? Hello FBI..Hello Perp. walk.. Hello comfy cell in a federal prison.
Our “reactive” regulator, piss ass about until it gets to the stage where either someone gets killed or serious questions may be asked as to ‘Why” they hadn’t done anything? Then step in and shut the business down with all the social and economic consequences entailed.
WHY???
For two reasons amongst others:
1. Our Regulations are a crock of Shyte and impossible to comply with.
2. “Foster and promote” is not in CASA’s Charter.
“Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.” (Douglas Bader)
If CASA is permitted unfettered and unchallenged to continue with its bowling ball approach to compliance with nonsensical regulations, is this the vision for aviation in Australia?
Dateline Australia 2030 or even sooner. (Headline) “Australia an Aviation desert.”
Private Aviation ?
The last Australian certified aircraft was farewelled today on its way back to the USA to its new owner who plans to restore the vintage machine to its former glory.
All recreational aviation in Australia is now confined to ultralight and homebuilt aircraft which, being self administered are outside Australia’s draconian regulations.
Charter ?
There are no charter aircraft operating in Australia today.
Since the collapse of the general aviation industry only certain “Charity” organisations are still operating aircraft but require heavy subsidization and are prohibitively expensive.
The last privately owned charter company was shutdown three years ago unable to meet the costs of compliance with the new suite of Australia’s unique regulations.
CASA was successful in redeploying most of its redundant FOI staff into Chief Pilot positions with the new government financed agencies set up maintain essential services. These services are notoriously unreliable, cost ten times the equivalent cost overseas and do not have a very good safety record.
As a result most ad hoc charter in Australia is operated by New Zealand companies.
Flying Training ?
The last flying school in Australia shutdown two years ago.
The Australian license is no longer accepted overseas and the cost of obtaining one has lead to an exodus of potential commercial pilots to new Zealand, China or Thailand for training. An internationally recognised license can be obtained there for a third of what it would have cost in Australia.
It is also recognised that as there is no possibility of employment in aviation in Australia an Australian license is somewhat pointless.
Business Aviation ?
The level of business aviation in Australia has remained fairly static except for the large volume of aircraft taken off the Australian register. Its of interest that all advertisements for pilots for Australian business aircraft now require an FAA or other foreign license.
Airlines ?
Since the demise of QANTAS and the sale of JETSTAR to Asian entities, most pilot positions in Australia are filled by foreign pilots who by far make up the majority of 457 visas issued.
It has been reported that Fair Work Australia is about to hear an application for industrial action by foreign pilots demanding overseas basing as they are unable to exist on their salaries living in Australia.
Us old Farts ??
Slippers…warm fire…glass of superb vino…and a lot of memories of how it was, one thing the a…holes can never take away…may they rot in hell.
Then again one could perhaps ask how did it get to that stage in the first place?
A “proactive” regulator like the FAA are reluctant to shutdown what could be a viable business. They step in long before it gets to that stage and via mentoring and supervision restore a company to compliance and safe operation, and if management still dont get the message?? Hello FBI..Hello Perp. walk.. Hello comfy cell in a federal prison.
Our “reactive” regulator, piss ass about until it gets to the stage where either someone gets killed or serious questions may be asked as to ‘Why” they hadn’t done anything? Then step in and shut the business down with all the social and economic consequences entailed.
WHY???
For two reasons amongst others:
1. Our Regulations are a crock of Shyte and impossible to comply with.
2. “Foster and promote” is not in CASA’s Charter.
“Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.” (Douglas Bader)
If CASA is permitted unfettered and unchallenged to continue with its bowling ball approach to compliance with nonsensical regulations, is this the vision for aviation in Australia?
Dateline Australia 2030 or even sooner. (Headline) “Australia an Aviation desert.”
Private Aviation ?
The last Australian certified aircraft was farewelled today on its way back to the USA to its new owner who plans to restore the vintage machine to its former glory.
All recreational aviation in Australia is now confined to ultralight and homebuilt aircraft which, being self administered are outside Australia’s draconian regulations.
Charter ?
There are no charter aircraft operating in Australia today.
Since the collapse of the general aviation industry only certain “Charity” organisations are still operating aircraft but require heavy subsidization and are prohibitively expensive.
The last privately owned charter company was shutdown three years ago unable to meet the costs of compliance with the new suite of Australia’s unique regulations.
CASA was successful in redeploying most of its redundant FOI staff into Chief Pilot positions with the new government financed agencies set up maintain essential services. These services are notoriously unreliable, cost ten times the equivalent cost overseas and do not have a very good safety record.
As a result most ad hoc charter in Australia is operated by New Zealand companies.
Flying Training ?
The last flying school in Australia shutdown two years ago.
The Australian license is no longer accepted overseas and the cost of obtaining one has lead to an exodus of potential commercial pilots to new Zealand, China or Thailand for training. An internationally recognised license can be obtained there for a third of what it would have cost in Australia.
It is also recognised that as there is no possibility of employment in aviation in Australia an Australian license is somewhat pointless.
Business Aviation ?
The level of business aviation in Australia has remained fairly static except for the large volume of aircraft taken off the Australian register. Its of interest that all advertisements for pilots for Australian business aircraft now require an FAA or other foreign license.
Airlines ?
Since the demise of QANTAS and the sale of JETSTAR to Asian entities, most pilot positions in Australia are filled by foreign pilots who by far make up the majority of 457 visas issued.
It has been reported that Fair Work Australia is about to hear an application for industrial action by foreign pilots demanding overseas basing as they are unable to exist on their salaries living in Australia.
Us old Farts ??
Slippers…warm fire…glass of superb vino…and a lot of memories of how it was, one thing the a…holes can never take away…may they rot in hell.
Last edited by thorn bird; 6th May 2012 at 09:53.
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I am genuinely surprised at the lack of chatter on this matter. Surely some of you folks up in PKU have some thoughts on the matter.
Watching with interest and hoping for the best outcome for the profession,
FRQ CB
PS Yes I am aware of the forum Alligator Airways temporarily Grounded???
Watching with interest and hoping for the best outcome for the profession,
FRQ CB
PS Yes I am aware of the forum Alligator Airways temporarily Grounded???
Does anyone know how many guys and girls are now out of a job? I know they generally have 15-20 people, but am curious how many newbies and experienced drivers are no looking elsewhere or are most waiting it out?