Alternate minima
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alternate minima
Hi All
Just doing some pre study for my IFR course and have a few questions on Canberra ILS 35.
1.ALTERNATE. (1964-4.4) does that mean if you had cloud overcast at say 1800ft and vis 3.0Km that you must plan an Alternate for Canberra if Canberra is your planned destination
OR
Does it mean that if you plan Canberra as your alternate your TAF must be better than (1964-4.4)
2. What does S-I ILS mean as opposed to ILS.
Don't know why we practise Canberra approaches when we fly out of YMMB.
Thanks
newifr
Just doing some pre study for my IFR course and have a few questions on Canberra ILS 35.
1.ALTERNATE. (1964-4.4) does that mean if you had cloud overcast at say 1800ft and vis 3.0Km that you must plan an Alternate for Canberra if Canberra is your planned destination
OR
Does it mean that if you plan Canberra as your alternate your TAF must be better than (1964-4.4)
2. What does S-I ILS mean as opposed to ILS.
Don't know why we practise Canberra approaches when we fly out of YMMB.
Thanks
newifr
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In Frozen Chunks (Cloud Cuckoo Land)
Age: 17
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't have the figures for Category A & B aircraft on my Jepp chart, but if the back of the aerodrome chart has your figures "for filing as an alternate" (actual or forecast QNH [100' diff]) 1964' and 4.4 km vis then, if either of the forecast cloud height* or visibility is less (and both are in your example) then yes you will require to plan an alternate.
And yes if using Canberra as your alternate, its forecast must be better than this as well.
S-I = Straight In Landing. Presume it means instead of Circling to Land (off the ILS) which has a higher minima.
And yes if using Canberra as your alternate, its forecast must be better than this as well.
S-I = Straight In Landing. Presume it means instead of Circling to Land (off the ILS) which has a higher minima.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alt Minima
Thanks blueloo
However on the CASA approach plates there are no Alternate minima stated on either page of the aerodrome chart.
The only place I can find alt minimas is on the approach plate itself.
However on the CASA approach plates there are no Alternate minima stated on either page of the aerodrome chart.
The only place I can find alt minimas is on the approach plate itself.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
newifr,
You'll find that the alternate minima doesn't change between approaches - it's purely an aerodrome thing (ignoring Special Alternate Minima (SPAM)).
For both your examples, if the cloud base is greater than SCT below the alternate minima and/or the vis is less than the alternate minima then either an alternate, or holding, is required. Remember, an alternate cannot require an alternate itself.
You'll find that the alternate minima doesn't change between approaches - it's purely an aerodrome thing (ignoring Special Alternate Minima (SPAM)).
For both your examples, if the cloud base is greater than SCT below the alternate minima and/or the vis is less than the alternate minima then either an alternate, or holding, is required. Remember, an alternate cannot require an alternate itself.
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: melb
Posts: 2,162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All good advice from those posted here already
Aside from cloud base req's at yr destination (thread drift slightly but worth a mention) there are also c/w considerations with some getting caught out with a more into wind rwy actually being Notam'd out of service & not usable, lighting if that's applicable also needs to be considered as well as Viz due dust storm for Eg.
And remember that when considering an Alt AD it too must not also have the need for an Alt (as has been said already I think) & lastly the Alt AD must have a firm & valid forecast for yr arrival otherwise it too needs that Alt (as mentioned abv) if operating into it IFR.
All lots to think about. The rules/regs are great but they are the bare min's req'd for legal reasons. As you get IFR hrs under yr belt you will soon learn that often especially around coastal dromes during winter you can never take enuf fuel
Enjoy the ride, but don't do it in a SE plane
Wmk2
Aside from cloud base req's at yr destination (thread drift slightly but worth a mention) there are also c/w considerations with some getting caught out with a more into wind rwy actually being Notam'd out of service & not usable, lighting if that's applicable also needs to be considered as well as Viz due dust storm for Eg.
And remember that when considering an Alt AD it too must not also have the need for an Alt (as has been said already I think) & lastly the Alt AD must have a firm & valid forecast for yr arrival otherwise it too needs that Alt (as mentioned abv) if operating into it IFR.
All lots to think about. The rules/regs are great but they are the bare min's req'd for legal reasons. As you get IFR hrs under yr belt you will soon learn that often especially around coastal dromes during winter you can never take enuf fuel
Enjoy the ride, but don't do it in a SE plane
Wmk2
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't know why we practise Canberra approaches when we fly out of YMMB.
One more, how are those rude people at CASA asking me a question in IREX about some NDB approach in NSW that I’m never going to fly to, I fly out of YMMB not YSBK.
I feel better now.
Surprise !
Don't know why we practise Canberra approaches when we fly out of YMMB.
And that is what they're paying you for
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't know why we practise Canberra approaches when we fly out of YMMB.
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by newifr
2. What does S-I ILS mean as opposed to ILS.
I assume you're using Airservices plates based on this comment. There are actually two - ILS-Y and ILS-Z - but the layout is the same. Each has five minima fields, as follows (using the ILS-Y, the -Z is the same but the MAP gradients are less):
S-I ILS (2.5% MAP) - this is the minima for a straight-in approach to RWY35, if you can meet the 2.5% MAP climb gradient.
S-I ILS (5.0% MAP) - this is the minima for a straight-in approach to RWY35, if you can meet a 5.0% MAP climb gradient (to 3200FT, then relax to 2.5%, explained in the plate notes)
S-I LOC/DME - this is the minima for a straight-in approach without glidepath guidance
CIRCLING - this is the minima if your approach will require circling, ie the ILS is the only suitable approach, but the wind velocity makes 35 operationally unacceptable to you.
ALTERNATE - the alternate minima for the airport.
Both the Circling and Alternate minima are the same for every approach, and in Canberra the alternate figures are a reasonably standard 500ft / 2.0km greater than the circling minima for the respective performance category.
AIP provides the guidance that:
Originally Posted by ENR 1.5 para 6.1.1
Each approach chart shows the ceiling and visibility minima to be compared with meteorological forecasts and reports to determine both the need to provide for an alternate aerodrome and the suitability of an aerodrome as an alternate.
Do you guys use PANS-OPS over there for specifying minima requirements? i.e. When viz is forecast to be less than 5000m, or less than 2000m more than the required viz for that approach, (which ever is the greater of the two) and/or cloud base less than 1000 feet above MDA/DA then an alternate is required.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: OMAA
Posts: 253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Question: Does an aerodrome need an alternate if there is no TAF available? Or can it proceed to the destination without planning for an alternate provided that: not more than SCT cloud is forecast below the final route segment LSALT+500ft and the forecast visibility not less than 8km.