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Climbing to LSALT/MSA after takeoff

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Climbing to LSALT/MSA after takeoff

Old 22nd May 2011, 23:05
  #21 (permalink)  
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Even if you depart on track with a "steep" climb requirement, at 120kts you still only need 600fpm.

.. and what would be your advice when one quits AND there are some nasty hills around and about ?
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Old 22nd May 2011, 23:34
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'J Tulla' that's the biggest issue with any twin that can't out-climb the terrain on two donks never lone one during climb to LSALT. I've always believed that you fly the plane to suit the environment. A dept in CAVOK means you just get on with it but in IMC/NGT make sure you have an 'out' from the time you push up the throttles even if it means staying within gliding distance of the dept AD whilst getting to LSALT.
As for risks colliding with another A/C on say a reverse DGA..........well some good airman-ship & common sense is yr best defense, both not always exhibited sadly.


Wmk2
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Old 23rd May 2011, 00:02
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If the aerodrome has an instrument approach and you cannot remain visual to the MSA you would then climb within the circling area until you reach the MSA then depart from there. This guarantees you obstacle clearance for e.g Cat B aircraft 2.66nm.

If you follow DME steps, reverse DGA, SID these are all acceptable too and will cut down time.

If you are flying a twin you must consider on departure whether you can either remain visual and land, or climb on one engine then carry out an instrument approach.

In terms of other traffic who are in IMC or on the approach, since you would have contacted center for traffic info they would have passed this on to you. Plus your broadcast on CTAF will also confirm this.
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Old 23rd May 2011, 01:22
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Eocvictim,

I agree with that statement you made! I dont see why in the vast majority of airports around this country anyways anything more then an overhead departure is necessary.. sure theyre are exceptions but even then its not like we face issues to the extent that an airport eg NZQN has...
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Old 23rd May 2011, 01:36
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ATSB Report

Controlled Flight Into Terrain during enroute climb!

Pilot was not familar with the area.

There were 8 people on board.

1986 - PA31 - Cairns
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Old 23rd May 2011, 03:52
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A sobering reminder, Capt Fathom.
I had the unwelcome job of winching emergency response people in and out of the site of that one. If they'd had another 50 ft of altitude, they'd have gone blithely on their way none the wiser.
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Old 23rd May 2011, 05:54
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A sobering reminder that idiots will probably kill themselves. Off 15 at CNS, right turn into cloud and run into a hill? Der.

Had he read a thread such as this before doing that, he might be alive today.
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Old 23rd May 2011, 06:04
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With all due respect to the victims, he need not have read a thread like this but simply look out the apartment window at some stage during his holiday. He might have been unfamiliar with the aerodrome, but surely he noticed those bloody big hills surrounding the city in the days leading up to the departure.
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Old 23rd May 2011, 06:18
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When I completed my initial IR training back in 1984 I asked my trainer, who was a well known and respected pilot this exact same question. I got a 5 minute chat and that was it. I had under 1000hrs at the time. At no time was this covered during my training, and by the look of this thread nor does it appear to be the case today.

Some will say use common sense, however it shouldn't be left up to that, this is something that should be well covered, including your options in the event of an engine out. Above 5700kg this is all covered by 20.7.1b (or whatever!) and the operator is required to cover all the likely en-route scenarios etc. Light twins etc aren't and are usually flown by pilots with minimal experience and it shouldn't be left to luck or common sense, but covered by good briefings on how to best plan for these situations etc.

I recognise a lot of posters here (not personally) who generally have >5700kg jet or heavy RPT turbo-prop time and have their experience to fall back on. Most new twin IFR drivers don't.
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Old 23rd May 2011, 08:08
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I'd held instrument ratings for years in single engine fixed wing and helicopters and thought I knew a fair bit about things, but it took a posting to Caribous to smarten my thinking up about the 'you're on your own' style limbo-land that is the IFR uncontrolled aerodrome departure in something that's often lucky to make 100 fpm with an engine out.
Not only that, but the other side of the coin which is what to do when you've left LSALT or MSA on an instrument approach and can't make the missed approach gradient with an engine out.

The blanket statement that you're responsible for terrain clearance on departure until established at or above LSALT is, well, a blanket, and hidden below its bland surface is a massive can of worms! Mixing metaphors there, but yes, the poor old IFR light twin driver has one of the trickiest jobs when it comes to discharging his or her responsibilities about missing the ground.
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Old 23rd May 2011, 09:45
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Hmmmmm! Don't know where you guys did your initial CIR or where you do your renewals, but I gotta say that this subject was well covered in my initial training and has been revisited at each of my 26 renewals. Something I think about on every IFR departure! I have been into most of the licenced aerodromes in Qld and can't think of any where this poses a great challenge.

eg How do you depart Innisfail for Mareeba - MSA is 6500 due to Qld's highest mountain?

Dr

PS: As for departing 15 at YBCS on a visual departure clearance with a right hand turn and climb into cloud - well, what can be said! There is a really obvious reason why the usual SID is an immediate left turn and climb out over the sea.

Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 23rd May 2011 at 09:55.
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Old 23rd May 2011, 10:04
  #32 (permalink)  
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The problem with light twins is that, just the same as heavies, you can't wing it with qualitative waffle.

Either you do quantitative sums based on quantitative terrain and cultural data/flight test validated performance data .. or you're having yourself on.

I've spent a significant part of my engineering working life doing just that for heavies. When I fly lighties, I know I don't have the data available to do the same sort of thing .. so I go conservatively so that I know I have an out.

When the nonsense arrived in the AIP about light twin drivers making sure that they can get out after a failure, I argued until I was black and blue in the face with the examiner who sponsored the amendment. No joy .. like talking to a brick wall. Nice guy, though.

Guess the fun will start when the toss is argued at a coronial and then in the higher courts for damages.
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Old 23rd May 2011, 10:24
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AOTW,
Pining for the good ol' days are we?
Youse Caribou guys had two engines. Looxury!
Us real men wot drive CT4s only have one.
Imagine the thrill of rocketting luft-wards at sometimes up to 300FPM trying to make the 6,200FT LSALT on the way to Scone.
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Old 23rd May 2011, 20:47
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And with the rain dripping in through the gaps in the canopy seal too mate ... at least the engine failure case is easy to consider - we're goin' down!
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