Airline Pilot Jobs in Australia now and in the future
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Yes Tarmac...
And how much do you get for your weekend flying?? I'm glad you earn good money during the week but I sure hope that's not "private ops- oh we can't pay you"... That at the end of the day is the reason the original poster needs to ask such a question.
The real reason the future of aviation is bleak - because there is always someone willing to do it cheaper... The reason why if I had a choice of a Job to fall back on, it would be one with the best union and most cohesive employees so we don't get screwed!!
And how much do you get for your weekend flying?? I'm glad you earn good money during the week but I sure hope that's not "private ops- oh we can't pay you"... That at the end of the day is the reason the original poster needs to ask such a question.
The real reason the future of aviation is bleak - because there is always someone willing to do it cheaper... The reason why if I had a choice of a Job to fall back on, it would be one with the best union and most cohesive employees so we don't get screwed!!
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Plumber, they all think they're the best, and they all charge accordingly. Real-estate agents, $80kish/an after a 6 week course. Coles floor manager, 70k/an, store manage $120k/an. Similar for Spotlight (yes the haberdashery store). $70-100k is very achievable for an unqualified individual today, the only people who don't are doing what they want, following a passion or the sheep working under the other unqualified at Coles etc.
I learnt a long time ago that a qualification is not required to be, "Joe Bloggs: millionaire". My first day working at the local servo taught me that; the CEO worked his way up from a "console operator" with nothing to back him.
I learnt a long time ago that a qualification is not required to be, "Joe Bloggs: millionaire". My first day working at the local servo taught me that; the CEO worked his way up from a "console operator" with nothing to back him.
Last edited by eocvictim; 8th May 2011 at 10:14.
If ya love flying anything, just do it.
I would suggest there is one common thread amongst the majority of visitors to this forum. They love being in the driver's seat of a flying machine. That the reward outside the cerebral seems to be diminishing, the thrill never does.
Wanna fly. Just do it because you love it. Don't do it for significant financial reward; that benefit is no longer relevant.
I would suggest there is one common thread amongst the majority of visitors to this forum. They love being in the driver's seat of a flying machine. That the reward outside the cerebral seems to be diminishing, the thrill never does.
Wanna fly. Just do it because you love it. Don't do it for significant financial reward; that benefit is no longer relevant.
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it is overrated.
Dont you mean if you love flying just do it because the financial rewards are not there until many years down the track! :-)
You have to balance lifestyle and work. its easy to say just do it, and that is correct while you are still 'chasing the dream' and trying to get into RPT of some sort.
But when you are there and you get shafted its a bit of a buzzkill. I love flying, thats why I have put up the the poo for so long. But even now I am finding myself wanting to vacate the career simply for the fact that the rewards of the "fun job" just are not there (I dare say its the airline I work for!). And by that I mean not only financially but also mentally.
Having a career that is spat on by middle management who get paid more than you is just plain boring to me now. But dont let my cynasyim put you off. I will still fly in one way or another even if I do leave the full time flying circus...... so that should say something to you
You have to balance lifestyle and work. its easy to say just do it, and that is correct while you are still 'chasing the dream' and trying to get into RPT of some sort.
But when you are there and you get shafted its a bit of a buzzkill. I love flying, thats why I have put up the the poo for so long. But even now I am finding myself wanting to vacate the career simply for the fact that the rewards of the "fun job" just are not there (I dare say its the airline I work for!). And by that I mean not only financially but also mentally.
Having a career that is spat on by middle management who get paid more than you is just plain boring to me now. But dont let my cynasyim put you off. I will still fly in one way or another even if I do leave the full time flying circus...... so that should say something to you
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fmcinop
fmcinop,
I currently work in IT and was thinking of fulfilling my aviation desires even if just in the form of a PPL for now.
Could you please PM me how you went about it?
I currently work in IT and was thinking of fulfilling my aviation desires even if just in the form of a PPL for now.
Could you please PM me how you went about it?
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This has been an interesting read as it's something I have struggled with over the years and never really come to terms with.
I started in aviation aged 15. Most of the people I attended uni with struggled to pay for their flying lessons and after obtaining their CPL ended up working at coles/bunnings or in other industries.
I ended up having a car accident on my way home from the airport one day and lost my medical for a while (aged 21), this pushed me into IT which was always going to be my second career choice if anything did ever go wrong.
I have never had an issue obtaining work or earning up and over 160k a year in this industry. As was mentioned previously you just need to specialise in one area, i.e. storage. If you're willing to put in the work/effort you can earn substantially more.
I now work for the government on an ok wage 100k+ with long service due every seven years, four weeks holidays a year, 3-5% pay rise each year and a fair few other perks, not to mention I only have to work 7.5 hours a day mon-fri. It makes up the for the 60k+ less a year.
I attempted getting back into aviation over the last two years but couldn't fully commit to it. The biggest hurdle for me was the lack of financial stability, and the limited job prospects. Starting from scratch again isn't an easy task especially when it means earning next to nothing for a very long time.
Of course I still go out flying sometimes but I do regret not being able to fly big jets, it's something I think I will always regret!
I started in aviation aged 15. Most of the people I attended uni with struggled to pay for their flying lessons and after obtaining their CPL ended up working at coles/bunnings or in other industries.
I ended up having a car accident on my way home from the airport one day and lost my medical for a while (aged 21), this pushed me into IT which was always going to be my second career choice if anything did ever go wrong.
I have never had an issue obtaining work or earning up and over 160k a year in this industry. As was mentioned previously you just need to specialise in one area, i.e. storage. If you're willing to put in the work/effort you can earn substantially more.
I now work for the government on an ok wage 100k+ with long service due every seven years, four weeks holidays a year, 3-5% pay rise each year and a fair few other perks, not to mention I only have to work 7.5 hours a day mon-fri. It makes up the for the 60k+ less a year.
I attempted getting back into aviation over the last two years but couldn't fully commit to it. The biggest hurdle for me was the lack of financial stability, and the limited job prospects. Starting from scratch again isn't an easy task especially when it means earning next to nothing for a very long time.
Of course I still go out flying sometimes but I do regret not being able to fly big jets, it's something I think I will always regret!
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It's definitely a lot of sacrifice becoming a full time pilot jasonpb. I'm not sure many of us would go thru it again or would choose this career if we wound back the clock.
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Mr Hat there lies the problem with the current free fall of terms and conditions. The talent pool will be much shallower in the future as people weigh up the relative merits of other career options. Management are relying on the pool of people who have already committed too far to pull out, or cadets with no experience. I don't think either will be sustainable in the long run, there will always be some talent around but the average is going to fall; a long way. I enjoy flying, but I would take a decently paid comfortable desk over most of whats on offer today.
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Supply vs Demand
Still in touch with enough GA operators to know there are significantly less resumes appearing on the desk than 2, 5 or 10 years ago. Can you jump in to any C210 with a bare CPL and 200 hours and expect to be matching 10 year IT salaries? Of course not! But the pay and conditions are about what you'd expect for an entry level helpdesk job.
Is there a demand for 3000hr pilots on twin engine turboprops? Absolutely! And the pay is about what you'd expect for a CCNA/MCSE with a few years experience (ie completely dependent on the company and what you're able to negotiate, just like IT, some companies think your MCSE is worth $38k and pair you with someone else with an MCSE but worked for them for longer, some think it's worth $110k and give you complete control).
At the end of the day people work for what they think they are worth. Most of the pilots I know tend to migrate towards larger companies and let the company tell them what they think they are worth. Most people I know in IT have a good idea of what's around and stay where ever they are happiest. Most of your bargaining power with salary comes when you first walk in the door. I've seen IT guys jump from contract to contract negotiating $10k extra each time they change jobs, while others with a better skill set stay in the same company and only manage to negotiate $2-3k a year. I've seen a number of pilots on cabin class piston twins take a $10k pay cut to move back to the east coast on turboprops "I just want to be close to family", only to see pilots with the same hours move to the exact same city with a jet job 2 months later taking a $10k payrise as an SO, some have stayed on another six months and got an FO job (again, same city!) with a $40k payrise.
There's no secrets in Aviation, there's more than a few threads on pprune with first year base salaries for pretty much every company in Australia operating anything with a turbine. After you've put in the hard yards and ticked all the boxes, if you think you're worth $40k back on the east coast, thats the job you'll accept, if you think you're worth $90k and wait until that job comes up, that's what you'll get. If people stop signing up for $40k, that particular operator is either going to have to cut routes or start paying more (or most likely, a combination of both).
At the end of the day the "average pilot" is going to stop things spiralling out of control in either direction - not everyone is going to sit and wait for Qantas to start employing again, not everyone is going to jump at the first turboprop job offering $40k. Congratulations guys, you now realise collectively you have complete control over your salary.
Still in touch with enough GA operators to know there are significantly less resumes appearing on the desk than 2, 5 or 10 years ago. Can you jump in to any C210 with a bare CPL and 200 hours and expect to be matching 10 year IT salaries? Of course not! But the pay and conditions are about what you'd expect for an entry level helpdesk job.
Is there a demand for 3000hr pilots on twin engine turboprops? Absolutely! And the pay is about what you'd expect for a CCNA/MCSE with a few years experience (ie completely dependent on the company and what you're able to negotiate, just like IT, some companies think your MCSE is worth $38k and pair you with someone else with an MCSE but worked for them for longer, some think it's worth $110k and give you complete control).
At the end of the day people work for what they think they are worth. Most of the pilots I know tend to migrate towards larger companies and let the company tell them what they think they are worth. Most people I know in IT have a good idea of what's around and stay where ever they are happiest. Most of your bargaining power with salary comes when you first walk in the door. I've seen IT guys jump from contract to contract negotiating $10k extra each time they change jobs, while others with a better skill set stay in the same company and only manage to negotiate $2-3k a year. I've seen a number of pilots on cabin class piston twins take a $10k pay cut to move back to the east coast on turboprops "I just want to be close to family", only to see pilots with the same hours move to the exact same city with a jet job 2 months later taking a $10k payrise as an SO, some have stayed on another six months and got an FO job (again, same city!) with a $40k payrise.
There's no secrets in Aviation, there's more than a few threads on pprune with first year base salaries for pretty much every company in Australia operating anything with a turbine. After you've put in the hard yards and ticked all the boxes, if you think you're worth $40k back on the east coast, thats the job you'll accept, if you think you're worth $90k and wait until that job comes up, that's what you'll get. If people stop signing up for $40k, that particular operator is either going to have to cut routes or start paying more (or most likely, a combination of both).
At the end of the day the "average pilot" is going to stop things spiralling out of control in either direction - not everyone is going to sit and wait for Qantas to start employing again, not everyone is going to jump at the first turboprop job offering $40k. Congratulations guys, you now realise collectively you have complete control over your salary.
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"But the pay and conditions are about what you'd expect for an entry level helpdesk job." Yep.
That may have been acceptable when there were high paying jobs down the road, the jobs that are now evaporating. But 35k is the absolute bottom for a graduate job with the average 55k and up as a start point. The graduate would also have a HECS debt of around 15k as opposed to 80-140k for a CPL with all the fruit. Yes I am biasing towards tertiary qualified comparisons but that is the type of person aviation use to attract and will now struggle to.
There will always be people for whom 60-85k with rolling shift work sounds like a good deal. The question is whether the talent pool will be deep enough to avoid problems. I think that it will take 10 years or more for the full affects of the changing market to be visible. Just look at the US experience.
That may have been acceptable when there were high paying jobs down the road, the jobs that are now evaporating. But 35k is the absolute bottom for a graduate job with the average 55k and up as a start point. The graduate would also have a HECS debt of around 15k as opposed to 80-140k for a CPL with all the fruit. Yes I am biasing towards tertiary qualified comparisons but that is the type of person aviation use to attract and will now struggle to.
There will always be people for whom 60-85k with rolling shift work sounds like a good deal. The question is whether the talent pool will be deep enough to avoid problems. I think that it will take 10 years or more for the full affects of the changing market to be visible. Just look at the US experience.
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"If a company dont respect you then they simply dont pay you!"
eocvictim, your right, but unfortunately there is someone who always will, usually those who just leave school and commit to big debt in return for service. I have seen many of these guys go from ignorant management/company loving do anything yes men to a year or two down the track very disappointed with the treatment we get as a "professional". Most of them learn, how can they not in the "race to the bottom" industry.
I have a couple non-aviation interviews lined up in some very rewarding careers not to mention the lifestyle / money but its the value you receive as an employee that really makes you want to stay.
Like a wise man once said to me, "If a company dont respect you then they simply dont pay you!"; and that can mean also in the lifestyle they offer you as well.
Never been able to forget that saying ever since I started in the RPT sector!.... but then again I dont work for Virgin.... lol
I have a couple non-aviation interviews lined up in some very rewarding careers not to mention the lifestyle / money but its the value you receive as an employee that really makes you want to stay.
Like a wise man once said to me, "If a company dont respect you then they simply dont pay you!"; and that can mean also in the lifestyle they offer you as well.
Never been able to forget that saying ever since I started in the RPT sector!.... but then again I dont work for Virgin
.... lol
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The problem is that our country has become very comfortable with the zero hull loss and has a excessively confident outlook on the matter.
CEO's/"managers" think that Automation replaces everything and that all you need is anyone just sitting there turning it on/off at 50/0 feet. Character like Bruce Loosecannon have no idea what the job entails and base everything on superficial numbers.
What they don't realise is how many times per day experienced crews are really the last line of defence. They think we just sit there and do nothing.
CEO's/"managers" think that Automation replaces everything and that all you need is anyone just sitting there turning it on/off at 50/0 feet. Character like Bruce Loosecannon have no idea what the job entails and base everything on superficial numbers.
What they don't realise is how many times per day experienced crews are really the last line of defence. They think we just sit there and do nothing.
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What they don't realise is how many times per day experienced crews are really the last line of defence. They think we just sit there and do nothing.
There's two things that I believe are tagged with a Commercial pilots license & hence have kept this industry money wise low.
One is that the industry can't afford big bucks at any level other than the high end big bus drivers. Charter at say PA31 level can't afford 80K or so for a pilot as the charter rates to provide that wage would be cost prohibitive & there would be no work for anyone anyway. That 'tag' is un-fixable sadly
Two & this is debatable more a question really is the holder of a CPL & beyond considered a professional such as a Dr ?
You see to gain a CPL where you are available for hire & reward you don't need any formal education other than basic reading & writing skills & enuf money to pay for lessons etc. A Dr for Eg needs to have a higher education well before they get into that field & have the public's respect, pilots don't although I understand that a degree in aviation is now favorable. As an Eg I never finished secondary school bombing out in form 5 or year 11 did a trade & worked my way up to a 'bus' purely 'cause I wanted to fly,money never became the driving force as I was earning far more than I ever could during my way up in another industry (OIL).
The traditional path to the top is dieing.
Aviation as a career has changed, that's pretty obvious to us older ones but to the youngsters whom have the desire/dream to fly as we did all those years ago has nothing to compare it too where we older ones do as we have lived & currently live in the two worlds of an aviation career path.
I'm sure the dream to fly is still there in the hearts of the young but like it or not Cadetship is the way of the future.
Wmk2
One is that the industry can't afford big bucks at any level other than the high end big bus drivers. Charter at say PA31 level can't afford 80K or so for a pilot as the charter rates to provide that wage would be cost prohibitive & there would be no work for anyone anyway. That 'tag' is un-fixable sadly
Two & this is debatable more a question really is the holder of a CPL & beyond considered a professional such as a Dr ?
You see to gain a CPL where you are available for hire & reward you don't need any formal education other than basic reading & writing skills & enuf money to pay for lessons etc. A Dr for Eg needs to have a higher education well before they get into that field & have the public's respect, pilots don't although I understand that a degree in aviation is now favorable. As an Eg I never finished secondary school bombing out in form 5 or year 11 did a trade & worked my way up to a 'bus' purely 'cause I wanted to fly,money never became the driving force as I was earning far more than I ever could during my way up in another industry (OIL).
The traditional path to the top is dieing.
Aviation as a career has changed, that's pretty obvious to us older ones but to the youngsters whom have the desire/dream to fly as we did all those years ago has nothing to compare it too where we older ones do as we have lived & currently live in the two worlds of an aviation career path.
I'm sure the dream to fly is still there in the hearts of the young but like it or not Cadetship is the way of the future.
Wmk2
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Newbie
Hey everyone,
Thanks for all the comments, I'm new to aviation, only did my first solo a couple of weeks ago.
For the sake of sharing information, I'm paying over 50k just for my CPL and it may add up to almost 90k for all the ratings including night VFR, MECIR etc, is it normal? was it way cheaper a while back?
Also.. I would greatly appreciate if some of you could tell me what they would've done if they could go back in time to build hours. What's a good way to start this career?
Thanks heaps!!
Thanks for all the comments, I'm new to aviation, only did my first solo a couple of weeks ago.
For the sake of sharing information, I'm paying over 50k just for my CPL and it may add up to almost 90k for all the ratings including night VFR, MECIR etc, is it normal? was it way cheaper a while back?
Also.. I would greatly appreciate if some of you could tell me what they would've done if they could go back in time to build hours. What's a good way to start this career?
Thanks heaps!!
