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GA in OZ

Old 19th Mar 2011, 15:24
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GA in OZ

Hi all,


Are there any small GA companies out there in OZ that actually care about their pilots?
Seems to me from my experience they are just out to take advantage of GA pilots.Pay below award and out to extract as much as they can from you.Not to mention duty times,HA!
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Old 19th Mar 2011, 16:07
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With 'some' companies / people......

Ever was it thus....

Forty years ago, I did a 'contract' job for a then 'respected' operator in WA, who then reneged on the 'living away fom home allowance' of $10 per day for 30 days - YES - it was a very 'remote station' area, anyway the allowance was NOT paid.
So, I called the 'man' a few choice names , to his face, and that made me feel a bit better, and I moved on......

To the next one.....

Until......

Then, 'miraculously' I met the aforementioned person at a social gathering, and he was 'phuked' - and I wasn't - and THAT made me feel REAL GOOD!!!

For Wot Its Worth..... Hang in there until you meet the 'right employer' - however scarce they might be....

If you are being underpaid - GO TO your Union / State Fair Trading Office or whatever its called nowadays!

Cheers
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Old 19th Mar 2011, 17:57
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Seems to me from my experience they are just out to take advantage of GA pilots.Pay below award and out to extract as much as they can from you.Not to mention duty times,HA!
And you expect it to be different how?

I once heard a former employer telling the office staff how good it would be to own an airline if only she didn't have to employ pilots.

Yes this would be the same one who spent 40 bux or so on petrol and drove 600 K round trip to sit in the office in the dark after parking her car out of sight behind the hangar and ambush me to chew me out prior to my starting duty for the weekend run.

My crime......The day before I had given a passenger who had been told she could pay for her ticket when she came out for the flight a $16.00 discount because the office staff didn't start work until after the flight left and pilots who were trusted with machines worth 6 figures could not be trusted with access to 50 bux of petty cash to give change to the customers.

I came so close to parking the plane in Boulia and getting a bus home, except I probably would have left it somewhere other than Boulia.
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Old 19th Mar 2011, 23:28
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Think outside the box

Are there any small GA companies out there in OZ that actually care about their pilots?
Seems to me from my experience they are just out to take advantage of GA pilots.Pay below award and out to extract as much as they can from you.Not to mention duty times,HA!
Of course there are. You are just looking into a very big box with tunnel vision. The company I work for is a smallish GA company, we fly C210s, and we get paid 3 times the award with accom paid for and a generous per diem. The previous company I worked for, an even smaller GA company was the same. Both these companies we stuck to flight and duty times religiously and would have our asses kicked if we even thought about going over them.
What you are referring to with the crap ass pay and operators just wanting to get maximum work for minimum dollars is GA Charter. It is a place everyone is out to get to a bigger plane as fast as they can, and the operators know this, and know that as a result, their pilots will cop it on the chin and put up with it.
GA is a big industry, and it is not limited to charter. Charter is just the tip of the iceberg, so if you are being screwed, its only by yourself, go out there and find the real GA jobs, the ones with the pay and conditions that you want. There are plenty out there, you just have to talk to the right people to find them.
69
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Old 19th Mar 2011, 23:33
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On another note, the majority of operators dont have to advertise for jobs, so it someone is advertising, ask yourself why. Not always a bad sign, but it can be.
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Old 20th Mar 2011, 03:55
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There are very limited companies that pay and abide by the GA award and I mean FULLY ABIDE BY. Including, duty times, O/N allowances etc. However, I could probably count them on one hand!

Within the last 3 years I've moved through 3 different employers, both of which paid well under the award. Never got O/N allowances, expected to fudge duty times, expected to wait under the planes wing from 7am till 5pm (if the pax were even remotely on time) in 45 degree heat, cover up out-of-date fire extinguishers and life jackets, fly an aircraft when you know its only running on 3 cylinders instead of 4. And thats only to mention a few! If you don't or wont do it...there is the door. And sure enough, they will have somone to replace you who WILL do the job before you even hear the door slam behind you. THATS THE REALITY!

Many pilots working in this industry at the low experienced level (including myself) are scared into the job. By this I mean, they will do anything to get those hours in the logbook. And if they don't, someone else will! Its a dog eat dog industry and no one is looking out for you, other than yourself.

I'd like to finish by writing a quick quote I wrote recently to CASA and AFAP for help:

Whilst reading todays paper I was drawn to the column of Hungry Jacks employees and their rates of pay. An employee working for Hungry Jack gets 17.10/hr for the top tier worker (grade 5). If you do the maths on a 40hr working week, this totals $684 gross. In a General Aviation pilots full time wage for a 40 hr week is $16.25/hr which totals $650 gross. I am not, by any means, belittleing the employees of Hungry Jacks, however I am comparing the level of education, training, proficiency and standards that are envloved in our day to day operations. After the 9 years it has taken me to complete my training, the stresses and testings envolved in our workplace are somewhat of an extremely hight calabre. The salary payment is absolutely dismal and may I say the remuneration cannot be the motivation behind this career. A statement I'd like to inform our future potential aviators.

I'd like to finish by asking you why should I, and many other aviation pilots in the General Aviation Industry, become a member of this federation if we're not part of this Appendix A? I'm not asking to be paid exuberant amounts of money to do what I do, all i'm asking for a fair go with a bit of support and be given what we are entitled to. A fair go at a professional career in an everchanging and challenging environment and reap the benifits of our hard work at the end of the day. Otherwise, why have an Award?

It is common understanding in this industry that we just 'turn a blind eye' to the level of treatment and benifits of obtaining a career in aviation and I can assure you i'm not the only one feeling this. I am trying my hardest to fight off the anger and frustration within me, whilst at the same time try and cope with the operations and logistics of flying an aircraft with paying souls on board.
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Old 20th Mar 2011, 04:04
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Did you get any reply?
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Old 20th Mar 2011, 04:14
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RESPONSE:

We agree the salary rates are low but we have run many cases to improve salaries over the years some successful others not. One of the problems is the number who accept little or no pay during low times of job numbers and the employer knows he gets no grief from those building hours and moving on. We often prosecute employers but more pilots come in and the employer continues to breach knowing no claims arise.

We will continue to look after our members but there is no such thing as a free lunch...

So pretty much just cop it...and take it and take it in the . Can someone tell me when the pilots pay was increased? If so, when and by how much? Because inflation is by far overtaking any chance of a pay increase....

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Old 20th Mar 2011, 04:38
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Unfortunately it's many of our fellow pilots who are as much the 'enemy' as these shabby employers. For every one of us who will be a member of the union there is another who will not and will happily undercut the rest of us to 'get ahead'. I come from a strong union background in the UK - many relatives were from mining stock, and they would have a name for those that did things like this - 'scabs'. A strong term yes, but these people are the reason so many operators treat pilots with utter contempt. They need sorting out as much as the operators.
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Old 20th Mar 2011, 05:45
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Jolly Good Show Hold Short!

Sit on the sideline as a non union member and fling the proverbial about the fact that they have never done anything for you. Congratulations old boy, you are part of the problem you complain about.

Within the last 3 years I've moved through 3 different employers, both of which paid well under the award. Never got O/N allowances, expected to fudge duty times, expected to wait under the planes wing from 7am till 5pm (if the pax were even remotely on time) in 45 degree heat, cover up out-of-date fire extinguishers and life jackets, fly an aircraft when you know its only running on 3 cylinders instead of 4. And thats only to mention a few! If you don't or wont do it...there is the door. And sure enough, they will have somone to replace you who WILL do the job before you even hear the door slam behind you. THATS THE REALITY!
Oh how I love the defence of 'if I didn't do it, someone else would'. I also find it highly amusing how you've been underpaid for the last 3 years yet done nothing about it apart from moan. Your allegations about flying unserviceable aircraft are a riot as well. In addition, how can you have moved through 3 employers and both of them have underpaid??

I do believe that you need to develop some intestinal fortitude.

Saw a fantastic website last month, there is a character on there that reminds me of yourself, I believe the term pissant comes to mind.

The Union Pilot

Straight home and don't spare the horses.
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Old 20th Mar 2011, 06:06
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Within the last 3 years I've moved through 3 different employers, both of which paid well under the award. Never got O/N allowances, expected to fudge duty times, expected to wait under the planes wing from 7am till 5pm (if the pax were even remotely on time) in 45 degree heat, cover up out-of-date fire extinguishers and life jackets, fly an aircraft when you know its only running on 3 cylinders instead of 4. And thats only to mention a few! If you don't or wont do it...there is the door. And sure enough, they will have somone to replace you who WILL do the job before you even hear the door slam behind you. THATS THE REALITY!
Self preservation alive and well.

Why the F would you personally fly, let alone carry passengers, in an un-airworthy aircraft.

You are an idiot. 3 times over.
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Old 20th Mar 2011, 06:16
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A Union of WHAT? They do bugga all anyway. Tell me what they have done for YOU for your $400 a year subscription, Home James?

You sound like the perfect little, daddy paid for my flying, union boy who wouldn't get his hands dirty if they were dippped in oil. Your simply above everyone arn't you. Oh how I envey you!

Tell me how have moaned? I simply tried to find some reasoning behind the union to see if they would back a small, insignificant and inexperienced pilot if I were to be apart of the union. Im an example of ALOT of pilots within Australia who feel the same and getting delt the same. I moved away from other companies to TRY my luck at a 'fair go'. Nothing ventured, nothing gained! Had to get a second job to make ends meet, ie for family, accidental and financial reasons. Thats what I call doing something productive about it!

Don't sit there and criticise all of us who are trying gain experience, trying to get somewhere in life, whilst trying to make the company successful so we can have jobs to keep coming back to. If YOU ever ventured out into the big wide world, Home James, you would truely see how real it is out there.
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Old 20th Mar 2011, 06:21
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Why should any company pay anything other than a pittance to pilots if there's people like Holdshort there willing to do the job in unsafe planes for that pittance?

YOU are the problem, if you can't see it you're as blind as you are stupid.
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Old 20th Mar 2011, 06:29
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Keep a diary and sue them for what was "left out" once you get in an airline and don't need thei. References anymore...

No I'm not condoning this course of action but have seen it...

Or stand up for yourself from the get go and laugh in their face when they offer you below award conditions...
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Old 20th Mar 2011, 06:33
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fly an aircraft when you know its only running on 3 cylinders instead of 4
Hold Short, I'd suggest avoiding telling such tales as it makes it apparent your knowledge is a bit lacking.
However if you were able to get a loaded '3 cylinder' machine into the air perhaps you should skip silly old GA and join nasa now!
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Old 20th Mar 2011, 06:46
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HAHA this is hilarious!

Sorry for telling the truth! You can all sit there and assume this type of practice doesn't happen, but your all the stupid ones for thinking it doesn't. What perfect company do you work for?

That was years ago and i'm not condoning these actions either, but all i'm saying this was a snapshot of my experience at the time.

Oh and an engine running on 3 cylinders still performs. May take a bloody long time to start and climb out, but it performs!
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Old 20th Mar 2011, 06:58
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On ya! Hold Short

The problem is guys and girls it does happen.
I have had similar experience's as hold short.Ok I wouldn't say that I would fly a plane completely unairworthy.But many a time have been expected to complete the job with things not quite up to scratch.And i'm sure there are many GA pilots out there with similar stories.If you make too many waves then more than likely you will end up sweeping the hangar and missing out on the flying.They love to have that power over you.There are many new pilots out there willing to do the job if you won't do it.
Its all about cutting cost and saving da money at the expense of safety!
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Old 20th Mar 2011, 07:45
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Lemmings-Rodents believed to jump off cliffs to their death in large numbers

Hold_Short,

"A Union of WHAT? they do bugga all anyway."

Well for a start they are able to negotiate an award even if it is lower than everyone would like it to be.

You sir are unable to even negotiate a deal that at least matches that of the AFAP' negotiated award. You have chosen to work outside of the award and represent yourself to your employers and yet you shift blame to everyone else for your poor T&C due (in full) to your spineless condition.
Over a 30 year career in Oz aviation I lost count of the number of jobs which I declined because the operator said that they "didn't pay the award", yet I never found myself unemployed for more than a couple of weeks. It is about respect, earning it as a good operator-navigating your way around difficult situations be it in the air or on the ground.

Dont give us that rubbish that if you choose to walk then someone will take your place at the drop of a hat. You are right, they will. You are that person.
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Old 20th Mar 2011, 08:35
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Holdshort. I don't think anybody is saying these things don't happen. The problem is they do. The reason they happen is because people like you allow them to. As I said, YOU are as much the problem as these GA companies. It seems though that you prefer to look elsewhere for blame than the mirror.
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Old 20th Mar 2011, 08:51
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Hold Short Old Fruit,

Now my boy, you do not have any idea of my background, however I assure you that you are so far from the truth it is comical. That said, I would like to address some of the points raised in your previous posts.

You sound like the perfect little, daddy paid for my flying, union boy
These two are normally mutually exclusive. Your assumption is incorrect, I paid for every last penny of my flying. However, as strawbs sang, I am a union man.

who wouldn't get his hands dirty if they were dippped in oil. Your simply above everyone arn't you. Oh how I envey you!
You're, aren't, envy. If by getting my hands dirty you refer to flying unserviceable aircraft and blatantly breaking the rules, then no, I won't get my hands dirty. Furthermore, I do not consider myself above anyone.

If YOU ever ventured out into the big wide world, Home James, you would truely see how real it is out there.
Truly. Ah, attempt to scorn my experience, therefore rendering my arguments invalid. Whether or not I have experience or not is not that relevant. However, I do have experience in this industry, far more than you estimate I would wager.

Now, for the AFAP. My 950 subscription (1% of annual salary and all that) gets me negotiating power during EBA negotiations, representation in the event of unfair dismissal, and access to the best loss of license insurance I can find. It also makes me feel like I am giving back to the industry I dearly and deeply love. However, this is probably going in one ear and out the other as it would appear you have your mind firmly made up. You seem to have the viewpoint, like many freeloaders in this industry of 'what has the union ever done for me'. This is evidenced in your letter a few posts up where you write

I'd like to finish by asking you why should I, and many other aviation pilots in the General Aviation Industry, become a member of this federation
Please excuse my vulgarities everyone, but HoldShort,

You are a freeloading pissant, who breaks rules knowingly and repeatedly in an attempt to get ahead, only to then turn around and moan about what you had to do. You moan as if your life depended on it by relying on the 'real world' and 'if it wasn't me it would be someone else' arguments, however invalid they are. You are not a professional, you, and your ilk are a large contributory factor in the decline of aviation. The honor of this vocation is slipping away, being aided by P2F schemes, and spineless know-it alls like yourself who bleat first and get the facts later. You sir are a prig.

I do sincerely apologise to everyone else for that outburst, I think more glenmorangie is in order, and to spend the rest of my sunday evening in peace.

Straight home and don't spare the horses.
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