Threat and Error Management
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Threat and Error Management
I'm curious about how major airlines go about Threat and Error Management (TEM) training. Is this sort of thing outsourced or have most major carriers developed an in house training course.
Also interested in how threats and erros are incorporated into simulator re-currents etc with major carriers.
These questions are based around trying to introduce a more robust approach to TEM in my current organisation, and making maximum use of our simulator time.
Thanks
GD
Also interested in how threats and erros are incorporated into simulator re-currents etc with major carriers.
These questions are based around trying to introduce a more robust approach to TEM in my current organisation, and making maximum use of our simulator time.
Thanks
GD
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I did an in house course. Complete and utter waist of the short time I have left on is planet!
No discussion during sim exercises so far. It's one of these touchy feely subjects that may be important for newbies, one you have been around or 20 years in the industry, I don't see any value.
It covered some "terms" associated with TEM, nothing practical. As far as the company is concerned it ticked the boxes so all is well.
No discussion during sim exercises so far. It's one of these touchy feely subjects that may be important for newbies, one you have been around or 20 years in the industry, I don't see any value.
It covered some "terms" associated with TEM, nothing practical. As far as the company is concerned it ticked the boxes so all is well.
It's one of these touchy feely subjects that may be important for newbies, one you have been around or 20 years in the industry, I don't see any value.
If it is explained well, younger or less experienced workers can gain a lot just by recognising that it exists. It's been formalised in my company right down to the fact that we start our briefings with the statement "Threats and considerations......" and we then say something along the lines of " Notams.....nothing to affect us, MEL's......nothing to affect us....weather, nup, beaut day...." and off we go.
My personal experience is that every now and then that process reminds us of either a notam or Mel that we would have forgotten or it makes us look closer at the atis and pick up on the fact that the wind is a bit taily or whatever, that usually reults in a discussion but more importantly it puts it into the front of the Flying pilots mind. Sometimes it even results in changing the plan, ie higher auto-brake setting or something.
Maybe once you've been around for twent years you've got that inbuilt and so it is of no personal value, but often you are working with people who are not so experienced and it is a benefit to the operation. I've done 18 years so far and have got quite a bit out of TEM. Mainly because it formalizes a process that I had developed over the years who knows, either way, it makes my flights safer.
Framer
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Framer,
I do agree with your comments with some variations.
TEM always had a name, it used to be Called common sense, and it is the nuts and bolts of being a pilot. The longer you are around, logically, the more you experience and hopefully you learn to recognize "threats" "errors" and you manage to avoid or handle them.
Having said that TEM should not be limited to aviation. Crossing a road, opening a can or turning on the TV all have elements of TEM in them, I may write to the education department suggesting they add it to their syllabus.
Good parents, good instructor/ training pilot would cover the TEM issues without using the term in the past and that's what's changed from my point of view, especially with the modern equipment. Pilots are taught how to manipulate the box, not manage the aircraft, and that includes TEM.
Your company sounds like they have formalized it considerably better than mine, no surprise there. Like I said, we spent a few hours learning some terms, not a practical point made.
I agree and id suggest that the younger guys may get more out of it than I did. 34 years since I started flying and I believe I have used the concept of TEM without formalizing a name for it.
It's a bit like ADHD, there has always been badly behaved children, recently some one dreamt up a name to explain it. Hasn't made it disappear though
I do agree with your comments with some variations.
TEM always had a name, it used to be Called common sense, and it is the nuts and bolts of being a pilot. The longer you are around, logically, the more you experience and hopefully you learn to recognize "threats" "errors" and you manage to avoid or handle them.
Having said that TEM should not be limited to aviation. Crossing a road, opening a can or turning on the TV all have elements of TEM in them, I may write to the education department suggesting they add it to their syllabus.
Good parents, good instructor/ training pilot would cover the TEM issues without using the term in the past and that's what's changed from my point of view, especially with the modern equipment. Pilots are taught how to manipulate the box, not manage the aircraft, and that includes TEM.
Your company sounds like they have formalized it considerably better than mine, no surprise there. Like I said, we spent a few hours learning some terms, not a practical point made.
I agree and id suggest that the younger guys may get more out of it than I did. 34 years since I started flying and I believe I have used the concept of TEM without formalizing a name for it.
It's a bit like ADHD, there has always been badly behaved children, recently some one dreamt up a name to explain it. Hasn't made it disappear though
Hi skynews. Yeah I hear ya.
I'l tweak it a bit more though. I like to think I've always had good 'common sense' but now that it has been incorporated formally into the briefings it catches the days where I'm feeling a bit relaxed or maybe tired or whatever. Just for me personally, it has increased the likelyhood of me spotting something that needs a bit of thought. So I'm not fussed whether it's called 'common sense training' or TEM, it helps me out a bit.....and now that I think about it....probably more on the benign days than the 50kt 1200m viz nights because on those nights my senses are on full alert anyway. Have a good day mate , Framer
I'l tweak it a bit more though. I like to think I've always had good 'common sense' but now that it has been incorporated formally into the briefings it catches the days where I'm feeling a bit relaxed or maybe tired or whatever. Just for me personally, it has increased the likelyhood of me spotting something that needs a bit of thought. So I'm not fussed whether it's called 'common sense training' or TEM, it helps me out a bit.....and now that I think about it....probably more on the benign days than the 50kt 1200m viz nights because on those nights my senses are on full alert anyway. Have a good day mate , Framer
Nunc est bibendum
I was lucky enough to attend a Tony Kern seminar in Feb last year. One of the points he made is that the 'threat you discuss isn't going to be the one that kills you. It's the threat you don't see and discuss that is going to get you'.
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I remember hearing of the TEM briefing introduced by a major airline. At line up the captain would be required to announce something like this. "The threat is the runway. It is damp and therefore braking efficiency may be reduced. I shall manage that threat by ensuring the automatic RTO feature is serviceable. Note the RTO disenage light is extinguished which means the threat is managed. Next threat is a CuNimb at 30 miles on the radar. I shall manage that threat by asking for radar vectors to circumnavigate the threat. Next threat is icing in the lower levels. You will manage that threat by turning on the engine anti-icing on my command."
And so on ad nauseum...
And so on ad nauseum...
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TEM relevance in aviation
Strongly agree with Framer,
TEM in isolation is not the "missing link" in achieving absolute safety in aviation (or any other industry). However when TEM is packaged with best practice CRM/HF skills, the risk factor inherent in aviation is greatly reduced.
For experienced pilots with exceptional situationally awareness (the reality is, that this group of pilots is not the majority) the benefits of TEM/HF training will not be as great, compared to the rest of us.
For the infidels, I am consistently amazed with the limitations of our single channel processor (our brain) in particular during high work load periods.
My thoughts are that we will see massive improvements in the quality of TEM/CRM/HF facilitators and course content in the near future.
TEM in isolation is not the "missing link" in achieving absolute safety in aviation (or any other industry). However when TEM is packaged with best practice CRM/HF skills, the risk factor inherent in aviation is greatly reduced.
For experienced pilots with exceptional situationally awareness (the reality is, that this group of pilots is not the majority) the benefits of TEM/HF training will not be as great, compared to the rest of us.
For the infidels, I am consistently amazed with the limitations of our single channel processor (our brain) in particular during high work load periods.
My thoughts are that we will see massive improvements in the quality of TEM/CRM/HF facilitators and course content in the near future.
we will see massive improvements in the quality of TEM/CRM/HF facilitators and course content in the near future.
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Thanks for the thoughts so far, please keep them coming.
Framer, interesting that your briefs commence with the TEM concept. Has your company taken TEM into the sim and looked and practical application of TEM during flight? My current employer has very good pre-flight briefing requirements although we don't address the threats and considerations so specifically more as a part of the overall mission.
I am particularly interested in how TEM is taught during SIM sessions so if anyone has practical examples please forward them on.
Cheers
Framer, interesting that your briefs commence with the TEM concept. Has your company taken TEM into the sim and looked and practical application of TEM during flight? My current employer has very good pre-flight briefing requirements although we don't address the threats and considerations so specifically more as a part of the overall mission.
I am particularly interested in how TEM is taught during SIM sessions so if anyone has practical examples please forward them on.
Cheers
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TEM???......
Aeroplanes are the threat. Learn to manage them through experience and stop wasting time on more TLA jargon during the brief.
Too much jibber jabber is uncool fool.
Bbbbbzbzbzbzzzzzzz
Aeroplanes are the threat. Learn to manage them through experience and stop wasting time on more TLA jargon during the brief.
Too much jibber jabber is uncool fool.
Bbbbbzbzbzbzzzzzzz
'Skynews' couldn't have said it better myself.
TEM 'Total Empty Mess'..........what a crock of sh1t! What the hell did we do pre all this touchy feely crap? We flew the damn plane & took responsibility for it with a well structured path of experience to the top end.
Of course there's threats & errors there was before someone invented this waste of time & they will still be there after!!! Shheeez
The world is a nutty place now run by so called uni degree educated people
God save us from the nutters out there!
Wmk2
TEM 'Total Empty Mess'..........what a crock of sh1t! What the hell did we do pre all this touchy feely crap? We flew the damn plane & took responsibility for it with a well structured path of experience to the top end.
Of course there's threats & errors there was before someone invented this waste of time & they will still be there after!!! Shheeez
The world is a nutty place now run by so called uni degree educated people
God save us from the nutters out there!
Wmk2
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The reason they put TEM into the briefings is that over the years they filled the briefings with so much useless jibber jabber that on the rare occasion when there was something important to talk about in the briefing, they didn't talk about it because they were too busy talking useless jibber jabber and the other bloke had stopped listening 5 minutes ago anyway.
They're not there yet, but it's a step in the right direction. The principle should be to stop and have a little think about whether there is something new, unusual or unfamiliar that might have some effect on the operation, and might be worth having a chat about. This might include a NOTAM, an MEL, weather, terrain, unfamiliar airport, anything. If so, what are we going to do to make sure we don't fk it up? It's that simple. What it should not include is briefing useless crap like the flamin' MSA at an airport you fly to every day in radar assisted CAVOK conditions.
They're not there yet, but it's a step in the right direction. The principle should be to stop and have a little think about whether there is something new, unusual or unfamiliar that might have some effect on the operation, and might be worth having a chat about. This might include a NOTAM, an MEL, weather, terrain, unfamiliar airport, anything. If so, what are we going to do to make sure we don't fk it up? It's that simple. What it should not include is briefing useless crap like the flamin' MSA at an airport you fly to every day in radar assisted CAVOK conditions.
Grandpa Aerotart
That I completely agree with. But the same 'They', too often, have demanded canned spiels which actually stop people thinking. Canned briefings that seek to cover every possible eventuality also guarantee your offsider will not be listening because he has heard it a million times - so he will miss the odd important bit of information. The number of times I have ended a briefing with the words "Any questions?" only to be asked something I actually emphasised in the brief
TEM 'training' will follow the same path. It will just add to the length of the spiel. 95% of the departures I fly have no latent threats but I will be expected to spout the party line every time - examples have already been given on this thread. How can you 'Manage' 'Errors' that haven't been made yet? You have NO IDEA what errors will be made, if any, ahead of time.
The very few departure/arrivals I do fly with a 'latent threat' are very well known and understood by both pilots - a special procedure departing HKG for example - beyond reviewing that special procedure what value is there in saying "The threat to this departure is high terrain"? That is every bit as redundant as saying "The runway is long enough and wide enough..." When I hear that I want to ask "Anywhere we go that isn't?"
TEM 'training' will follow the same path. It will just add to the length of the spiel. 95% of the departures I fly have no latent threats but I will be expected to spout the party line every time - examples have already been given on this thread. How can you 'Manage' 'Errors' that haven't been made yet? You have NO IDEA what errors will be made, if any, ahead of time.
The very few departure/arrivals I do fly with a 'latent threat' are very well known and understood by both pilots - a special procedure departing HKG for example - beyond reviewing that special procedure what value is there in saying "The threat to this departure is high terrain"? That is every bit as redundant as saying "The runway is long enough and wide enough..." When I hear that I want to ask "Anywhere we go that isn't?"
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Have to concur with Grandpa Aerotart on this one, soooo often you hear a wrote briefing, and all you try to do is avoid going to zzzzzz, and try to look mostly interested.
IMHO, the concept is far more threat management..i.e. whats got the potential to kill us today?
Anymore indepth for the other stuff just gets lost in the white noise.
Of course however, given that I probably fly with the same guy once every 3 years or so, it is important to establish that you are on the same page....mostly we are
IMHO, the concept is far more threat management..i.e. whats got the potential to kill us today?
Anymore indepth for the other stuff just gets lost in the white noise.
Of course however, given that I probably fly with the same guy once every 3 years or so, it is important to establish that you are on the same page....mostly we are
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It concerns me when so many are ready to ridicule programs that are designed to reduce errors in aviation, particularly when over 90% of accidents and incidents are a result of human errors or violations.
Admittedly some programs are better than others but to just say it is common sense reflects the ignorance of some in our industry. What is common sense? It is totally subjective, biased and individual and reflects our individual values and beliefs, therefore it is totally variable and vague.
My understanding of threat and error management is being able to identify when conditions exist that make us more susceptible to making and error or commiting a violation (fatigue to just name one). It is also about being accountable for your actions and basing behaviour on sound principles of professionalism.
Sometimes I think the immature comments on this forum in relation to safety reflect individual biases and denial and do not reflect the professionalism we would like to portray to the community.
Admittedly some programs are better than others but to just say it is common sense reflects the ignorance of some in our industry. What is common sense? It is totally subjective, biased and individual and reflects our individual values and beliefs, therefore it is totally variable and vague.
My understanding of threat and error management is being able to identify when conditions exist that make us more susceptible to making and error or commiting a violation (fatigue to just name one). It is also about being accountable for your actions and basing behaviour on sound principles of professionalism.
Sometimes I think the immature comments on this forum in relation to safety reflect individual biases and denial and do not reflect the professionalism we would like to portray to the community.