Plane missing in north Queensland on way to Horn Island
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YJP was owned by GAM in the late 90s, leased to Falcon who later became Northern Air at Horn Island. Aero-Tropics took on the lease, then puchased from GAM and changed the rego to WJU in 1999. For about 2 years around 05-07 it sat in the 'graveyard' at Cairns GA airport being used for parts.
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'run by members of the Lippmann family who previously owned the now defunct Aero-Tropics Air Services, the company at the centre of the Lockhart River disaster that killed 15 in 2005.'
Typical Cairns Post shonky reporting. As is public knowledge, Aero-Tropics wet leased the Metro aircraft with pilots from Transair. They had no say in pilots or operation of said aircraft.
Typical Cairns Post shonky reporting. As is public knowledge, Aero-Tropics wet leased the Metro aircraft with pilots from Transair. They had no say in pilots or operation of said aircraft.
could speculate on a number of very possible factors leading to this accident.....HOWEVER out of respect for those that may have lost a family member and/or a friend how about we just wait a bit?
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carro, most "VFR into IMC" accidents are by the guys that are not IFR trained.
However you do highlight other issues with regard to VFR in IMC- a Bongo and Van nearly collided mid-air in the Straits last year and the above was a probable factor.
But what you have missed in your post, I think, is that a lot of the VFR in IMC is by instrument rated guys- and as you correctly say pushed by the company for several reasons. They are quite capable of flying in the conditions and not likely to prang like a day-vfr pilot would; but there are other issues in doing such.
I can tell you that the guy flying the Shrike is an experienced IFR driver.
Talk of the search being called off/scaled back today. Bugger.
Thanks for the phone calls fellas, not good hearing that it's one of our mates, keep hoping for the best.
However you do highlight other issues with regard to VFR in IMC- a Bongo and Van nearly collided mid-air in the Straits last year and the above was a probable factor.
But what you have missed in your post, I think, is that a lot of the VFR in IMC is by instrument rated guys- and as you correctly say pushed by the company for several reasons. They are quite capable of flying in the conditions and not likely to prang like a day-vfr pilot would; but there are other issues in doing such.
I can tell you that the guy flying the Shrike is an experienced IFR driver.
Talk of the search being called off/scaled back today. Bugger.
Thanks for the phone calls fellas, not good hearing that it's one of our mates, keep hoping for the best.
Sadly in these areas, no wreckage is usually found. Look at the poor MAF Pilot a couple of years ago in the gulf. If it went in the ocean, the tidal movement keeps it's secrets.
Fingers crossed for the fella, his family and mates.
In this game sooner or later you'll lose people that you know.
Fingers crossed for the fella, his family and mates.
In this game sooner or later you'll lose people that you know.
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It's by good fortune there's never been a midair up there, I think. I heard the Caravan driver last year on the radio immediately after the near miss - he even sounded like he fouled his pants - can't blame him
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And the worst thing about that little episode Edition12, is that CASA did nothing about it. Infact, it seems that there is a willful ignorance on the part of CASA regarding all the VFR aircraft operating in IMC up there.
It won't be until there is a mid-air up there between VFR and IFR that something will be done about bringing the offenders to account and by then it will be too late to save lives! Watch CASA duck for cover then amidst all the finger pointing!
Anyway... I digress. Back to the thread.
It won't be until there is a mid-air up there between VFR and IFR that something will be done about bringing the offenders to account and by then it will be too late to save lives! Watch CASA duck for cover then amidst all the finger pointing!
Anyway... I digress. Back to the thread.
I recall YJP being one of the best maintained and presented Commanders up north when Notty owned it. As for pilots trying to do Bob Hoover acts in them, get real ! It may have happened however I really think that's a generalization. I have no idea why Lipair has been dragged into this, apart from the aircraft being previously operated by them.
Reduced vis in rain and drizzle is a big killer, vis might be a few miles out the side window but can reduce to nothing when looking out the front. Not that I'm suggesting that this happened, however it has caught me out more than once I can tell you.
I totally agree that Airservices are doing nothing for safety in respect to charging to file an IFR flight plan, this issue really needs to be addressed in a constructive manner, by all interested parties within the industry.
Reduced vis in rain and drizzle is a big killer, vis might be a few miles out the side window but can reduce to nothing when looking out the front. Not that I'm suggesting that this happened, however it has caught me out more than once I can tell you.
I totally agree that Airservices are doing nothing for safety in respect to charging to file an IFR flight plan, this issue really needs to be addressed in a constructive manner, by all interested parties within the industry.
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It's by good fortune there's never been a midair up there, I think. I heard the Caravan driver last year on the radio immediately after the near miss - he even sounded like he fouled his pants - can't blame him
I totally agree that Airservices are doing nothing for safety in respect to charging to file an IFR flight plan, this issue really needs to be addressed in a constructive manner, by all interested parties within the industry.
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Condolonces to all friends and family. I really do hope they find the (supposed crashed ) location of the aircraft.
I disagree strongly with this opinion. We shouldnt speculate as to what has occured, but it is Pprune. Can anyone answer a few questions for me regarding Aerocommanders..
What is the MTOW of the AC50 in Australia?
What is the MTOW of the AC50 in the USA?
Why is there a difference?
If any one has ever bothered to grab a ladder and had a look on top of the wing, what will you invariably see?
Why do alot of AC50 require these straps?
What design flaw does the AC50 posses? (hint COP/COG)
What effect does these straps have long term?
The Aerocommander has proven to be a solid and reliable workhorse all over the world. I have a few hours in them myself. I just have a gut feel that no matter how well they are maintained they are getting long in the tooth. Ordinarily it isnt a problem but I feel for the AC50 it might. Last question...how many mid air break ups have there been with AC50's?
Please someone set me straight.
Re my last comments about Aero Commanders, I don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with the machines if they have been maintained correctly. All the accidents that I can recall that have occured with them have been due to pilot error, which comes back to pilot training and experience.
What is the MTOW of the AC50 in Australia?
What is the MTOW of the AC50 in the USA?
Why is there a difference?
If any one has ever bothered to grab a ladder and had a look on top of the wing, what will you invariably see?
Why do alot of AC50 require these straps?
What design flaw does the AC50 posses? (hint COP/COG)
What effect does these straps have long term?
The Aerocommander has proven to be a solid and reliable workhorse all over the world. I have a few hours in them myself. I just have a gut feel that no matter how well they are maintained they are getting long in the tooth. Ordinarily it isnt a problem but I feel for the AC50 it might. Last question...how many mid air break ups have there been with AC50's?
Please someone set me straight.
One wonders at possible structural integrity degeneration in Australian registered Shrikes, due to the Australian only VFR and IFR maximum gross weights, which are 10% higher than the original FAA certified maximum gross weight? The FAA and manufacturer did not support the Australian increase in MTOW and the manufacturer is on record opposing any change in aircraft weights.
The increased Australian MTOW was obtained by H C Sleigh Aviation, many years ago, on new airframes, for coastal surveillance purposes.
And that was at US FAA certified MTOW - not Australian weights.
One must seriously wonder how, in the event of an engine failure, one 260 HP Lycoming is supposed to keep a 3,300 kg aircraft, airborne.
IT is totally ludicrous to suggest the AsA IFR flight plan charge is detrimental to safety!
The increased Australian MTOW was obtained by H C Sleigh Aviation, many years ago, on new airframes, for coastal surveillance purposes.
Beginning in June 1991, senior engineers met with FAA officials to discuss concerns over the Aero Commander's main wing spar, which was believed to be susceptible to stress fatigue and subsequent cracking, and was believed to have resulted in a number of fatal crashes. From approximately 1961–1993, 24 aircraft crashed when spar failures caused the loss of the wing in flight. 35 more spars were found cracked during inspections.
One must seriously wonder how, in the event of an engine failure, one 260 HP Lycoming is supposed to keep a 3,300 kg aircraft, airborne.
IT is totally ludicrous to suggest the AsA IFR flight plan charge is detrimental to safety!
Last edited by Torres; 26th Feb 2011 at 07:55.
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my 2 cents
Firstly my heart felt thoughts go out the the friends and family of the pilot missing.
Sadly, having conducted several searches for missing persons and prawn trawlers throughout the straits, I can attest to the difficulty in finding clues as to what has happened. When bad weather and local currents are added to the mix the job becomes even more testing, to the point of putting those involved in searching in harms way.
Having flown AC500's for about 2000hrs I can also confirm it would take a mighty powerful thunderstorm to break one and I'm sure the pilot, who I know, wouldn't have put themselves in such a position. They will fly on one engine quite well and seeing as the flight was going up to Horn the aircraft would most likely have been empty and not full of fuel so the increased MTOW shouldn't have been a factor.
Knowing the pilot involved I agree with MyNameIsIs and don't think pushing a bad situation was high on the list of causes.
As for dodgy VFR, it is rife in the straits and I am also familiar with the Van incident. For christ sake people
there are rules that are designed to reduce the risk of us killing ourselves and each other, not to mention the poor passengers who are non the wiser. If you cant go cos the aircraft isn't up to spec, dont go! if you need to, consider going IFR, if your still not happy, dont go! up there you will only have to wait 10 minutes for it to clear.
Anyways thats a whole other topic.
Wish I could help in the search
Sadly, having conducted several searches for missing persons and prawn trawlers throughout the straits, I can attest to the difficulty in finding clues as to what has happened. When bad weather and local currents are added to the mix the job becomes even more testing, to the point of putting those involved in searching in harms way.
Having flown AC500's for about 2000hrs I can also confirm it would take a mighty powerful thunderstorm to break one and I'm sure the pilot, who I know, wouldn't have put themselves in such a position. They will fly on one engine quite well and seeing as the flight was going up to Horn the aircraft would most likely have been empty and not full of fuel so the increased MTOW shouldn't have been a factor.
Knowing the pilot involved I agree with MyNameIsIs and don't think pushing a bad situation was high on the list of causes.
As for dodgy VFR, it is rife in the straits and I am also familiar with the Van incident. For christ sake people
there are rules that are designed to reduce the risk of us killing ourselves and each other, not to mention the poor passengers who are non the wiser. If you cant go cos the aircraft isn't up to spec, dont go! if you need to, consider going IFR, if your still not happy, dont go! up there you will only have to wait 10 minutes for it to clear. Anyways thats a whole other topic.
Wish I could help in the search
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Unfortunately BP you may have hit the nail on the head.
If in fact if the aircraft was empty it may have greatly exceeded its ultimate load factor limit at a usually acceptable speed for turbulence. The same thing came to light after the clonbinane crash in which I seem to recall interviews with other company pilots revealed a large gap in understanding of aerodynamics pertaining to g loading.
Thoughts and prayers go to the family and friends.
If in fact if the aircraft was empty it may have greatly exceeded its ultimate load factor limit at a usually acceptable speed for turbulence. The same thing came to light after the clonbinane crash in which I seem to recall interviews with other company pilots revealed a large gap in understanding of aerodynamics pertaining to g loading.
Thoughts and prayers go to the family and friends.
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One wonders at possible structural integrity degeneration in Australian registered Shrikes, due to the Australian only VFR and IFR maximum gross weights, which are 10% higher than the original FAA certified maximum gross weight? The FAA and manufacturer did not support the Australian increase in MTOW and the manufacturer is on record opposing any change in aircraft weights.
The increased Australian MTOW was obtained by H C Sleigh Aviation, many years ago, on new airframes, for coastal surveillance purposes.
The increased Australian MTOW was obtained by H C Sleigh Aviation, many years ago, on new airframes, for coastal surveillance purposes.
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There are aerocommanders in Australia with well over 30,000 hours on the airframe, most of which are operated at low level and at the increased VFR weights, with no issues.
For those of you thinking this is an inflight break up, where is the wreckage, usually strewn over several kms ?.
From personal experience, the AC50 is a very very well designed aeroplane, when operated normally, is well within its destructive limits.
Just because an aeroplane does not have wing struts, does not automatically make it poorly designed or fragile, how many big aeroplane have wing struts ?.
With most accidents, the cause is a lot simpler than a poor designed aeroplane and/or multiple engineers missing a possible airframe defect...........the most common cause is the flight crew ( historically speaking, most accidents are caused by the pilots, as there is no evidence either way it can not be discounted ).
For those of you thinking this is an inflight break up, where is the wreckage, usually strewn over several kms ?.
From personal experience, the AC50 is a very very well designed aeroplane, when operated normally, is well within its destructive limits.
Just because an aeroplane does not have wing struts, does not automatically make it poorly designed or fragile, how many big aeroplane have wing struts ?.
With most accidents, the cause is a lot simpler than a poor designed aeroplane and/or multiple engineers missing a possible airframe defect...........the most common cause is the flight crew ( historically speaking, most accidents are caused by the pilots, as there is no evidence either way it can not be discounted ).
You're jumping to conclusions.
I will not speculate on the current missing aircraft, preferring to wait for competent comment from the ATSB.
If, for US FAA registered aircraft....
Is the risk of catastrophic failure in Shrike aircraft further aggravated by the higher operating weights in Australia, those weights not being supported by the FAA and aircraft manufacturer?
Common sense indicates this may be the case, especially with ageing, high time, high cycle aircraft.
Modern forensic aircraft accident investigation has moved beyond the traditional "pilot error" cause and seeks to establish critical, contributory factors.
That may be the case with high capacity pressurised aircraft but is generally not the case with non pressurised light aircraft.
I will not speculate on the current missing aircraft, preferring to wait for competent comment from the ATSB.
If, for US FAA registered aircraft....
From approximately 1961–1993, 24 aircraft crashed when spar failures caused the loss of the wing in flight. 35 more spars were found cracked during inspections.
Common sense indicates this may be the case, especially with ageing, high time, high cycle aircraft.
Modern forensic aircraft accident investigation has moved beyond the traditional "pilot error" cause and seeks to establish critical, contributory factors.
For those of you thinking this is an inflight break up, where is the wreckage, usually strewn over several kms ?.
Last edited by Torres; 26th Feb 2011 at 20:50.
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The ATSB report now states that the aircraft reported he was holding off Horn Island, due to WX. This is the most accurate info to date, and obviously the major reason for the difficulty in establishing a precise location of wreckage.
An inflight breakup (or even a CFIT) doesn't necessarliy involve wreckage strewn over a wide area, as evidenced by the number of aircraft that have disappeared with suspected catastrophic failure, that have never been found.
A disappearance over water makes the wreckage-finding task just that little bit more difficult. Surely, some TS Islanders out fishing, must have seen/heard something.
Some on-the-ground questioning of the locals must have to be an important part of the current search.
Investigation: AO-2011-033 - Missing aircraft - Aero Commander 500S, VH-WZU, near Horn Island, Queensland, 24 February 2011
An inflight breakup (or even a CFIT) doesn't necessarliy involve wreckage strewn over a wide area, as evidenced by the number of aircraft that have disappeared with suspected catastrophic failure, that have never been found.
A disappearance over water makes the wreckage-finding task just that little bit more difficult. Surely, some TS Islanders out fishing, must have seen/heard something.
Some on-the-ground questioning of the locals must have to be an important part of the current search.
Investigation: AO-2011-033 - Missing aircraft - Aero Commander 500S, VH-WZU, near Horn Island, Queensland, 24 February 2011
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Just to add to Torres's remarks, once the paperwork shows an increased MTOW, you would also have to believe that when planning for that weight, the aircraft would either be deliberately or inadvertantly be loaded even high, "just because we know it can". End result is quite possibly the AC50s have often been flown at (FAA MTOW + X) x 1.Y
Over many many hours that could be bad.
Over many many hours that could be bad.