Not sure which route to take...
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Not sure which route to take...
Hi guys,
Just wondering if I can get some personal or professional opinions here on a few things.
I just finished my basic CPL training. As I understand it my options are either get into instructing, go into the bush and try GA, or try a cadetship / possibly even an asian airline that accepts low hour foreigners.
Right now I could pack my bags and head north and battle it out for a gig up in the NT/WA, but honestly it's not really appealing to me. I have a few friends who are doing it or have done it and I know it looks like fun but the fact it isn't appealing to me is the level of uncertainty associated with it. For example I head north and like one mate I spend all of 2011 up there unsuccessful being at the wrong place at the wrong time and dont get a job. Fair enough, thats life. Or there's the whole going to KNX, living out of a hostel in the same room with a half dozen over guys battling over a spot at a scenic operator where from what I can gather if I'm lucky I'd get hired April-May... and get 2-3months flying in before things die down again (I was told this is how it was in 2010?). I know theres the option of also trying smaller locations other than Broome / KNX such as little remote towns or communities some of which may or may not even have a local shop or a life outside of work. I know there may be a few guys reading this thinking, "harden up, it's all an experience and it's awesome fun", and I agree, but thats not the case with me. I just cant see certain aspects of the life style out there being enjoyable for me (I have lived in a very remote outback town before and although an educational/interesting experience, it wasn't really for me) even though the hands on flying would be awesome.
My other options are spending my 15-20grand I've saved up on a MECIR or Instructor Rating. I don't really have any clue what the instructing scene is like at the moment in early 2011. Last time I really looked into it was maybe over a year ago and it looked gloomy. I had friends who were struggling to find work (some of which gave up), and others who were lucky to fly 5 hours a week. Instructing is something I can see myself doing and I'd like to imagine myself being a good instructor to my students but I dont want to spend my money on this path way if the career prospects are looking slim - I may as well put it towards a MECIR which I'll need either way in the future. I haven't gone around to my local flying school to ask how business is going but I'd presume they wouldn't be telling me it's all super awesome and they're low on instructors as it's almost like guaranteeing a job to somebody down the track.
Just wondering if someone here can give me a rough idea of where things are expected to head this year and what I could expect if I was to go down the instructing path?
Leaving the city is something I'd prefer not to do without a job lined up which is why driving through the out back from A to B and living out of my car or hostels is the big turn off. With instructing I'm under the presumption most jobs are given out by sending your resume by e-mail/phone to interstate operators while it's easy enough to spend a weekend drivign around local airports doing it in person.
With a MECIR I guess my other option is a cadetship... which isn't really appealing to me simply due to all the fuss and confusion being stirred up about them so I aint sure what to expect there. Lastly I know theres an option of overseas - South east Asia to be exact. I know theres a few airlines there that will put you into a RHS on a turbo prop for example. I guess it's good flying, it's more appealing to me than GA in Australia (dont ask me why) and yes, I'm aware of the life style I would face there, lower local pay conditions etc.
Long story short: I'm really lost as to what to do now. Which career path to take into aviation and what rating to get with my spare money. Just looking at getting peoples opinions and thoughts as maybe something might sway me one way or the other.
ALSO: I know there's a few guys here on PPRuNe that have given up on aviation for many reasons and I presume some of them are that their careers did not go where they wanted - pay, conditions, Ts&Cs. I'm very curious to know why some guys leave / give up on chasing or putting up with their dream job. I have a friend who recently gave up looking for work which must have been tough after spending so much money, but I know theres more like him out there, especially guys who actually did spend many years working who gave it the quits. I'd love to know why and understand the mentality behind it as now that I've been a student in the industry for a few months my perception of the industry is not as glamorous as it may have been before I entered it (assuming we all end up fancy captains for a big jet making 200k a year). PM if you dont want to share publicly.
Thanks
Just wondering if I can get some personal or professional opinions here on a few things.
I just finished my basic CPL training. As I understand it my options are either get into instructing, go into the bush and try GA, or try a cadetship / possibly even an asian airline that accepts low hour foreigners.
Right now I could pack my bags and head north and battle it out for a gig up in the NT/WA, but honestly it's not really appealing to me. I have a few friends who are doing it or have done it and I know it looks like fun but the fact it isn't appealing to me is the level of uncertainty associated with it. For example I head north and like one mate I spend all of 2011 up there unsuccessful being at the wrong place at the wrong time and dont get a job. Fair enough, thats life. Or there's the whole going to KNX, living out of a hostel in the same room with a half dozen over guys battling over a spot at a scenic operator where from what I can gather if I'm lucky I'd get hired April-May... and get 2-3months flying in before things die down again (I was told this is how it was in 2010?). I know theres the option of also trying smaller locations other than Broome / KNX such as little remote towns or communities some of which may or may not even have a local shop or a life outside of work. I know there may be a few guys reading this thinking, "harden up, it's all an experience and it's awesome fun", and I agree, but thats not the case with me. I just cant see certain aspects of the life style out there being enjoyable for me (I have lived in a very remote outback town before and although an educational/interesting experience, it wasn't really for me) even though the hands on flying would be awesome.
My other options are spending my 15-20grand I've saved up on a MECIR or Instructor Rating. I don't really have any clue what the instructing scene is like at the moment in early 2011. Last time I really looked into it was maybe over a year ago and it looked gloomy. I had friends who were struggling to find work (some of which gave up), and others who were lucky to fly 5 hours a week. Instructing is something I can see myself doing and I'd like to imagine myself being a good instructor to my students but I dont want to spend my money on this path way if the career prospects are looking slim - I may as well put it towards a MECIR which I'll need either way in the future. I haven't gone around to my local flying school to ask how business is going but I'd presume they wouldn't be telling me it's all super awesome and they're low on instructors as it's almost like guaranteeing a job to somebody down the track.
Just wondering if someone here can give me a rough idea of where things are expected to head this year and what I could expect if I was to go down the instructing path?
Leaving the city is something I'd prefer not to do without a job lined up which is why driving through the out back from A to B and living out of my car or hostels is the big turn off. With instructing I'm under the presumption most jobs are given out by sending your resume by e-mail/phone to interstate operators while it's easy enough to spend a weekend drivign around local airports doing it in person.
With a MECIR I guess my other option is a cadetship... which isn't really appealing to me simply due to all the fuss and confusion being stirred up about them so I aint sure what to expect there. Lastly I know theres an option of overseas - South east Asia to be exact. I know theres a few airlines there that will put you into a RHS on a turbo prop for example. I guess it's good flying, it's more appealing to me than GA in Australia (dont ask me why) and yes, I'm aware of the life style I would face there, lower local pay conditions etc.
Long story short: I'm really lost as to what to do now. Which career path to take into aviation and what rating to get with my spare money. Just looking at getting peoples opinions and thoughts as maybe something might sway me one way or the other.
ALSO: I know there's a few guys here on PPRuNe that have given up on aviation for many reasons and I presume some of them are that their careers did not go where they wanted - pay, conditions, Ts&Cs. I'm very curious to know why some guys leave / give up on chasing or putting up with their dream job. I have a friend who recently gave up looking for work which must have been tough after spending so much money, but I know theres more like him out there, especially guys who actually did spend many years working who gave it the quits. I'd love to know why and understand the mentality behind it as now that I've been a student in the industry for a few months my perception of the industry is not as glamorous as it may have been before I entered it (assuming we all end up fancy captains for a big jet making 200k a year). PM if you dont want to share publicly.
Thanks
If you want to be an aviator, you've got to get out there and make it happen. It will not happen for you unless you chase it.
You will never get a job lined up without leaving a city.
I believe last year the stats where about an 80% success rate of guys getting jobs.
Pack your ****, kiss your old life goodbye and see where it takes you. I went north thinking I'd be up there for a season or two. I was still in the tropics 6 years later and loving it.
You will never get a job lined up without leaving a city.
I believe last year the stats where about an 80% success rate of guys getting jobs.
Pack your ****, kiss your old life goodbye and see where it takes you. I went north thinking I'd be up there for a season or two. I was still in the tropics 6 years later and loving it.
While its possible to get your first job in a capital city (I did, infact I've never left a capital city my entire career), its not the most likely avenues of progression.
If he's worried about his chances, then his chances are far improved heading north. I can think of one operator at YSBK that gives newbies a chance. Other than that I can't think of anyone.
If he's worried about his chances, then his chances are far improved heading north. I can think of one operator at YSBK that gives newbies a chance. Other than that I can't think of anyone.
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Am I right in saying going north is for the general GA route ie scenics>charter>turbo prop rpt stuff.. and not so much instructing?
All the flying schools I'm aware of are in the bigger cities or bigger rural towns... and I don't know of any of my instructing mates who have ended up in the middle of nowhere taking that route...
Those who did end up in woop woop doing scenics/charters are loving it and from what I've seen and talked to them about it just isn't appealing to me even if it was for a few years...
Thanks for the advice so far tho!
All the flying schools I'm aware of are in the bigger cities or bigger rural towns... and I don't know of any of my instructing mates who have ended up in the middle of nowhere taking that route...
Those who did end up in woop woop doing scenics/charters are loving it and from what I've seen and talked to them about it just isn't appealing to me even if it was for a few years...
Thanks for the advice so far tho!
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I got my first job in THE capital city..... of an overseas country 
foodstamps, whilst we can give you plenty of advice based on what we have done and seen, which may help you out, the ultimate decision is yours.
What I find interesting is that you have stated:
"For example I head north and like one mate I spend all of 2011 up there unsuccessful being at the wrong place at the wrong time and dont get a job."
and
"My other options.... Instructor Rating........ I had friends who were struggling to find work (some of which gave up), and others who were lucky to fly 5 hours a week."
Think for a second- you just said you have friends that have stuggled in both cases. Have you had friends succeed in either/both???
Maybe, without trying to influence your decision, but it sounds like deep down you might know what you want to do?
Whether you go bush or instruct, you will have to fork out the money for either the MECIR or Instructor Rating. And where do you want to go after that- to a job that requires an MECIR? Think about things like that.
What about trying the bush road for a year or two, and if you dont like it then go for the instructor rating; or the other way around? Its probably a bit of extra money to spend, but it will give you a taste of both.
For what it's worth, I suggest the charter way- only because its what I have done and my biased opinion. Loved my journey so far.
I did think about instructing, but didn't think I personally had the patience for teaching.
No matter what you chose though, you MUST get out there in person, face to face with all the companies that you would like to work for. Do not expect a job offer in response to just emailing them your CV- it does happen but rare.
The right attitude will take you far. Good luck.
foodstamps, whilst we can give you plenty of advice based on what we have done and seen, which may help you out, the ultimate decision is yours.
What I find interesting is that you have stated:
"For example I head north and like one mate I spend all of 2011 up there unsuccessful being at the wrong place at the wrong time and dont get a job."
and
"My other options.... Instructor Rating........ I had friends who were struggling to find work (some of which gave up), and others who were lucky to fly 5 hours a week."
Think for a second- you just said you have friends that have stuggled in both cases. Have you had friends succeed in either/both???
Instructing is something I can see myself doing and I'd like to imagine myself being a good instructor to my students
Whether you go bush or instruct, you will have to fork out the money for either the MECIR or Instructor Rating. And where do you want to go after that- to a job that requires an MECIR? Think about things like that.
What about trying the bush road for a year or two, and if you dont like it then go for the instructor rating; or the other way around? Its probably a bit of extra money to spend, but it will give you a taste of both.
For what it's worth, I suggest the charter way- only because its what I have done and my biased opinion. Loved my journey so far.
I did think about instructing, but didn't think I personally had the patience for teaching.
No matter what you chose though, you MUST get out there in person, face to face with all the companies that you would like to work for. Do not expect a job offer in response to just emailing them your CV- it does happen but rare.
The right attitude will take you far. Good luck.
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Good to see you did your research before you spent the odd $70,000 to become a pilot. Don't worry, barely anyone does; they finish their CPL and realise after their flying instructor tries to convince them to spend another $15,000 to be just like them....that their only other choice is to pack their bags/kids/wife and move.
If it's simply not appealing for you to move, don't. Spend the money on an instructor rating and do the long slog. I'm sure there are instructors that got into airlines straight from instructing...but I've never met any. All of the ones I know have either quit all together, are still instructing, or have moved to charter.
If it's simply not appealing for you to move, don't. Spend the money on an instructor rating and do the long slog. I'm sure there are instructors that got into airlines straight from instructing...but I've never met any. All of the ones I know have either quit all together, are still instructing, or have moved to charter.
I would imagine that heading north on the east coast will help you find a job than just staying in one place, even if it is the big city. There seems plenty of schools on the coast around the regional centers that employ grade 3 instructors (just from reading and meeting a few guys around my school). Depends on what you call "bush" I guess. Where would you rank Tamworth, Armidale etc?
Personally, Ill be making the trip up north, but like you said everyone is different. Good Luck!
Personally, Ill be making the trip up north, but like you said everyone is different. Good Luck!
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You can go through the instructing route.
It's well worth it and wont leave you in whoop whoop. If the job appeals I'd go for it, I loved most of it. Plenty of verity and if you can work for the right operator you will end up doing charters too. My advice would be to approach your own flying school and offer to do you instructor rating there on the proviso they offer you a job. If they reject your offer, see what else is out there. I know many people of all ages who have taken this path and progressed through to Jets or what ever work they wanted to do in minimal time.
It's well worth it and wont leave you in whoop whoop. If the job appeals I'd go for it, I loved most of it. Plenty of verity and if you can work for the right operator you will end up doing charters too. My advice would be to approach your own flying school and offer to do you instructor rating there on the proviso they offer you a job. If they reject your offer, see what else is out there. I know many people of all ages who have taken this path and progressed through to Jets or what ever work they wanted to do in minimal time.
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I don't understand why it is absolutely necessary for you to obtain an MECIR when going the charter route? If you are a 200hr CPL, from what i've heard, chances are that you will waste lots of money trying to keep a CIR current and having to renew it, and not actually be exercising the privileges of an MECIR for at least a few years. So is there any point in forking out money for it just yet?
Pyro.
Pyro.
absolutely necessary for you to obtain an MECIR when going the charter route?
NVFR probably be more helpful.
Get your ME-CIR and sit on it. It is quicker to get it back than to duck back from KNX to YSBK to get one, even if there is 3-5 hours dual required.
You will NEVER do a single-engine night pax charter and very rarely any SE 'other' charter. Night hours are the hold-up for every ATPL candidate I know. Just get a ME-CIR and get on with your life. you will need it in your career whichever way you go.
IF you want to instruct, or you can afford it, tack on an instructor rating.
Charter is better for your career though. All happening up north. Go.
Standard route back in the dark ages (80's) was to go North, get the first thousand or so hours in while saving to do the Class 1 (MECIR now) once you got your first lot of holidays. Quite a healthy way to do it, both attitudinally and also as you actually had some experience to fall back on during the training.
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FWIW I used to employ the guys/gals with an instructor rating so they were multi talented. I needed people to instruct of a day and fly freight at night. I must admit none of'em could fly outta sight on a dark night, so i had to retrain them. Bottom line here is.....make sure you can fly an aircraft, not just go through the procedures.
If they were good guys, I'd give them a multi endorsement for free. Worked pretty well for me....and them.
If they were good guys, I'd give them a multi endorsement for free. Worked pretty well for me....and them.
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I'm sure there are instructors that got into airlines straight from instructing...but I've never met any.
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After reading your post foodstamps it seems to me that you have answered your own question. You don't want to leave the city, then don't go. Horatio is correct however, if you have the coin get your MECIR now, you won't have time later when that opportunity knocks and you have to tell your prospective employer - sure I'll take the job, just give me 2 months to knock off the required rating. Don't bother docking around with NVFR bullcrap, completely useless to a professional pilot. Doing your raring now will also buy you a little more think time as well.
Are you asking which route to take, or which is the fastest into a nice shiny big jet?
Biggest thing I have found with most gen Y pilots, is they want it yesterday, not willing to wait or go the yards. If you try and cut corners it will come back and bight you.
Personally I finished my CPL, got twin and MECIR, then went to work for a local operator initially in the office, driving clients, washing aircraft BUT getting paid for it. Finally when a position came up, got my first charter.
When they went bust, moved up to NT, knocked on a few doors and because I had experience on type from the previous operator got a look in.
Operator/Owner was an absolute pr$ck. He had a good fleet though. Worked very hard, more experience. Had a ball. Loved the NT especially the fishing
From there got a position in Geo Survey. Again very long days, hot, humid and rough at low level. Worked with some awesome people. Some of the best flying I have ever done.
Now as a training captain with an airline, all that experience is worth it's weight in gold. Seeing some of the younger and older crew come in, with very little real world experience, they struggle.
I have seen so many people give up because they were not handed a job on a silver platter. Waste of time and money. Hard work and determination will FINALLY see you where you want to be.
The journey getting there is half the fun! Good Luck.
Biggest thing I have found with most gen Y pilots, is they want it yesterday, not willing to wait or go the yards. If you try and cut corners it will come back and bight you.
Personally I finished my CPL, got twin and MECIR, then went to work for a local operator initially in the office, driving clients, washing aircraft BUT getting paid for it. Finally when a position came up, got my first charter.
When they went bust, moved up to NT, knocked on a few doors and because I had experience on type from the previous operator got a look in.
Operator/Owner was an absolute pr$ck. He had a good fleet though. Worked very hard, more experience. Had a ball. Loved the NT especially the fishing
From there got a position in Geo Survey. Again very long days, hot, humid and rough at low level. Worked with some awesome people. Some of the best flying I have ever done.
Now as a training captain with an airline, all that experience is worth it's weight in gold. Seeing some of the younger and older crew come in, with very little real world experience, they struggle.
I have seen so many people give up because they were not handed a job on a silver platter. Waste of time and money. Hard work and determination will FINALLY see you where you want to be.
The journey getting there is half the fun! Good Luck.
Last edited by Servo; 5th Feb 2011 at 03:07.