USER FEES A "STEP BACKWARD" IN THE "GOOD OLE USofA"....Bring THIS one 'in' Dick...
Thread Starter
USER FEES A "STEP BACKWARD" IN THE "GOOD OLE USofA"....Bring THIS one 'in' Dick...
THIS would be the ONE GOOD ITEM of Airspace Management which could be / should be - imported from the Good Ole U.S.of A....
From Today's AvWeb site.......
"House Members Urge Obama: No Aviation User Fees
One hundred and sixteen members of the U.S. House of Representatives have signed a letter (PDF) to President Barack Obama urging him not to support aviation user fees as a means to fund the FAA's budget for 2012. User fees would be "a step backward" in efforts to modernize the air traffic control system, and would have a "detrimental impact on general aviation and the flying public," the letter states. Ed Bolen, president of the National Business Aviation Association, welcomed the effort. "We thank the Congressional leaders who took this action early in the year to reinforce a clear message of opposition to user fees, and welcome their unwavering support on this issue of critical importance to the entire general aviation community," Bolen said this week. NBAA said the current system of fuel taxes is proven and efficient.
The bipartisan effort was led by Rep. Tom Petri, R-Wis., chairman of the House aviation subcommittee, and Rep. Jerry Costello, D-Ill., ranking member of the subcommittee. "Their stance demonstrates how well they understand the role and value of general aviation, and all of us in the GA community appreciate their willingness to step forward and address this issue head on," said AOPA President Craig Fuller. "They have stood firm and told the Obama Administration that user fees would be bad for general aviation, for our national transportation system, and for the broader economy." A similar letter circulated in 2009 gathered 118 signatures. AOPA said it was "impressive" that the current letter attracted nearly as many supporters, given the significant changes in House membership since the recent election.
AND SO SAY ALL OF US....!!!!
NOTE the comment - "Their stance demonstrates how well they understand the ROLE and VALUE of GENERAL AVIATION,".......
(My capitals....)
AMEN...!!!
Cheers
From Today's AvWeb site.......
"House Members Urge Obama: No Aviation User Fees
One hundred and sixteen members of the U.S. House of Representatives have signed a letter (PDF) to President Barack Obama urging him not to support aviation user fees as a means to fund the FAA's budget for 2012. User fees would be "a step backward" in efforts to modernize the air traffic control system, and would have a "detrimental impact on general aviation and the flying public," the letter states. Ed Bolen, president of the National Business Aviation Association, welcomed the effort. "We thank the Congressional leaders who took this action early in the year to reinforce a clear message of opposition to user fees, and welcome their unwavering support on this issue of critical importance to the entire general aviation community," Bolen said this week. NBAA said the current system of fuel taxes is proven and efficient.
The bipartisan effort was led by Rep. Tom Petri, R-Wis., chairman of the House aviation subcommittee, and Rep. Jerry Costello, D-Ill., ranking member of the subcommittee. "Their stance demonstrates how well they understand the role and value of general aviation, and all of us in the GA community appreciate their willingness to step forward and address this issue head on," said AOPA President Craig Fuller. "They have stood firm and told the Obama Administration that user fees would be bad for general aviation, for our national transportation system, and for the broader economy." A similar letter circulated in 2009 gathered 118 signatures. AOPA said it was "impressive" that the current letter attracted nearly as many supporters, given the significant changes in House membership since the recent election.
AND SO SAY ALL OF US....!!!!
NOTE the comment - "Their stance demonstrates how well they understand the ROLE and VALUE of GENERAL AVIATION,".......
(My capitals....)
AMEN...!!!
Cheers
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 26th Jan 2011 at 08:05.
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Get a voice
Get the win.
Don't wish for it. Don't just plaintively ask "please sir may I have more".
Get together, stick together and 'em to sod off.
It's no good hoping for the bloody good fairy to fix it.
Your choice lads, whine away or get busy. It is your industry.
Feed those blasted Joyce, don't stand about with your mouth open.
Don't wish for it. Don't just plaintively ask "please sir may I have more".
Get together, stick together and 'em to sod off.
It's no good hoping for the bloody good fairy to fix it.
Your choice lads, whine away or get busy. It is your industry.
Feed those blasted Joyce, don't stand about with your mouth open.
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Agree Rose, .... it is up to industry ... cause' sure as sh1t, Disk won't help us here in Oz, seeing as he championed its introduction in the first place.
Oh how I wish Smith looked at the whole picture before he cherry picked "world's best practice".....Smith....I remember you with your campaign to cut costs...remember your desk top full of AIP ammendments....The US of A had Flight services yet Smith wanted our version gone...ATC and the new untried in the world TAAATS with all the bells and whistles could do all of that....funny that bit....then the really smartest men in the GA room saw a way of getting rid of nav charges and flying for free in uncontrolled airspace...and allowed the government to abuse the Bosch report and bring in "User Pays"..those same smartest men in the room are championing the fight against ADS-B for fear of those fees they thought they got rid of all those years ago...and here we have the Gold Standard" of World's best practice fighting to keep government support and their general fuel levy as well as the support of a FAA that actually SUPPORTS AVIATION.....I wish!
Thread Starter
Re:"NBAA said the current system of fuel taxes is proven and efficient."
GOOD OLE U.S.ofA...
This is how the cost of the 'Flight Service' we used to have WAS funded.
Then the 'great evangelist' of the day said that these taxes should be abandoned and Flight Service made to disappear....
"Think of the money you will save - Your Safety Will Be Enhanced, And It Will Cost You LESS......
Well, has it..??
And so, it came to pass that the taxes (levy) on Avgas was abandoned and so was Flight Service, and MOST of the services to G/A...
Now, the taxes on fuel are back......and for what..??
What service or justification is there for G/A..??
"NBAA said the current system of fuel taxes is proven and efficient."
Only in the Good Ole U.S.ofA.......
And they still provide 'worthy' / comprehensive..(?) services to G/A..!!
(Did I ever say 'Thanks for the redundo...??)
Cheers
GOOD OLE U.S.ofA...
This is how the cost of the 'Flight Service' we used to have WAS funded.
Then the 'great evangelist' of the day said that these taxes should be abandoned and Flight Service made to disappear....
"Think of the money you will save - Your Safety Will Be Enhanced, And It Will Cost You LESS......
Well, has it..??
And so, it came to pass that the taxes (levy) on Avgas was abandoned and so was Flight Service, and MOST of the services to G/A...
Now, the taxes on fuel are back......and for what..??
What service or justification is there for G/A..??
"NBAA said the current system of fuel taxes is proven and efficient."
Only in the Good Ole U.S.ofA.......
And they still provide 'worthy' / comprehensive..(?) services to G/A..!!
(Did I ever say 'Thanks for the redundo...??)
Cheers
Every single year someone in congress puts user fees back into a bill in Congress and every year AOPA, NBAA etc fight to have it removed or prevent it passing.
This is despite a funding bill which will cover the FAA costs for multiple years being passed every so many years. The aviation trust fund is where the money comes from.
AOPA USA is a BRILLIANT ORGANIZATION by the way with over 400,000 members ( that's a lot of political clout/votes ) and a lot of great services of all descriptions for pilots. Anyone flying in the USA should join up.
Many members of Congress are GA pilots too which helps the cause fight this user fees rubbish.
They have a legislative team in DC that watches out for all aviation related legislation that lawmakers try to sneak through etc. usually by attaching to a bill that has absolutely nothing to do with aviation.
User Fees should NEVER have been voted in here in Aust.
All aviation services should have been funded by the fuel taxes as mentioned above with any shortfall made up from general revenue.
After all, aviation is an essential part of the nations transport infrastructure like roads and railways. Apart from the odd toll on some bridges and tollways in the East we dont pay a per /Km user fee to drive on the nations roads.
and every year AOPA, NBAA etc fight to have it removed or prevent it passing.This is despite a funding bill which will cover the FAA costs for multiple years being passed every so many years. The aviation trust fund is where the money comes from.
AOPA USA is a BRILLIANT ORGANIZATION by the way with over 400,000 members ( that's a lot of political clout/votes ) and a lot of great services of all descriptions for pilots. Anyone flying in the USA should join up.
Many members of Congress are GA pilots too which helps the cause fight this user fees rubbish.
They have a legislative team in DC that watches out for all aviation related legislation that lawmakers try to sneak through etc. usually by attaching to a bill that has absolutely nothing to do with aviation.
User Fees should NEVER have been voted in here in Aust.
All aviation services should have been funded by the fuel taxes as mentioned above with any shortfall made up from general revenue.
After all, aviation is an essential part of the nations transport infrastructure like roads and railways. Apart from the odd toll on some bridges and tollways in the East we dont pay a per /Km user fee to drive on the nations roads.
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One hundred and sixteen members of the U.S. House of Representatives have signed a letter (PDF) to President Barack Obama urging him not to support aviation user fees as a means to fund the FAA's budget for 2012.
would indicate to anybody with half a brain reading this that if you have 116 members of a parliament mobilised there must be some SERIOUS lobbying from..............the people
Part of the reason that aviation is in the mess that it's in, in this country is that Australians are lazy, apathetic whingers. Get off your arses and do something about the things you hate in aviation
I read somewhere that Hervey Bay has stopped landing charges for lighties. When things recover I would think that someone should organise a rather large fly-in as a show of support. Show the other councils what effect aviation can have on the economy if they welcome people to their town.........spending money.
And if anybody from the US is reading this thread and wants to know what a pox user pays is, how much damage it does, how it encourages lack of airmanship etc address your enquiries on this thread to one Dick Smith.
I'll look forward to his defence of: location specific charges, user pays.
Jack, can I ask you a very simple question to the person behind the blinkers.... What is the difference between paying a landing charge for using an airport and paying a toll to use a toll road?
There is none. User pays has been entrenched society for 25+ years now, it is time some of you removed head from dark place and get with the program. I used to think along the same lines as yourself that airports are vital infrastructure, however this is less and less the case now in this era of electronic communication.
Griffo etc, GA is now such a bloody tiny trickle in the big bucket that is government at any level here in Australia, and is seen by many in the general community as populated by eletists with money to burn. You need to change that perception. The way the community would see a fly-in to a free landing charge AD is abuse of the system. The local take-away bloke may get fat on his profits for the day but what happens when you leave?
GA in Australia is a tiny fraction of the size it is in the US, it should not be the case as we have so many isolated communities and great distances etc but think about this for a moment. Commercial aviation/RPT on the other hand actually offers something back to the community, they are the ones who should be being looked after....
There is none. User pays has been entrenched society for 25+ years now, it is time some of you removed head from dark place and get with the program. I used to think along the same lines as yourself that airports are vital infrastructure, however this is less and less the case now in this era of electronic communication.
Griffo etc, GA is now such a bloody tiny trickle in the big bucket that is government at any level here in Australia, and is seen by many in the general community as populated by eletists with money to burn. You need to change that perception. The way the community would see a fly-in to a free landing charge AD is abuse of the system. The local take-away bloke may get fat on his profits for the day but what happens when you leave?
GA in Australia is a tiny fraction of the size it is in the US, it should not be the case as we have so many isolated communities and great distances etc but think about this for a moment. Commercial aviation/RPT on the other hand actually offers something back to the community, they are the ones who should be being looked after....
Thread Starter
Nice logical sentiment Mr Ops........
Now let me see......
I wonder just WHERE we would get the 'Commercial ops/RPT' services from, without the G/A component who TRAINED the 'Commercial ops / RPT' guys and gals, and who provided the opportunities for them to GRADUATE to the lofty 'RPT' heights by way of doing tourist flights, flight instruction, local awk, surveys - think roads, airstrips, airports - they're the bigger airstrips for those RPT ops - minerals etc etc...not to mention good ole RFDS et al....Did I mention 'Angel Flights..??'
I mean, just pump a heap of $$'s into the 'Commercial ops/RPT stuff because the PUBLIC SEE THEM MORE....?? Must be votes in that!!
Are you a pollie...??
It has been said that the local AD is the most important Main Street in many a town - look at QLD at the mo.
Even larger ad's like Rocky come to mind.....
Try telling a pilot that he cannot land FREE to provide his service.....
(To those Councils who would dare to allow such a thing...)
Do we pay tolls for EVERY road we use?? I believe not. Should I choose to use a toll road for whatever reason, then that is my choice and I pay accordingly.
I do not pay DIRECTLY to drive down the main street of my town.
I DO pay indirectly thru my various taxes / rates etc and, not to mention the FUEL taxes I pay at the bowser.....
Whch sort of brings us back to the original argument.......N'est-ce pas..??
Cheers
Now let me see......
I wonder just WHERE we would get the 'Commercial ops/RPT' services from, without the G/A component who TRAINED the 'Commercial ops / RPT' guys and gals, and who provided the opportunities for them to GRADUATE to the lofty 'RPT' heights by way of doing tourist flights, flight instruction, local awk, surveys - think roads, airstrips, airports - they're the bigger airstrips for those RPT ops - minerals etc etc...not to mention good ole RFDS et al....Did I mention 'Angel Flights..??'
I mean, just pump a heap of $$'s into the 'Commercial ops/RPT stuff because the PUBLIC SEE THEM MORE....?? Must be votes in that!!
Are you a pollie...??
It has been said that the local AD is the most important Main Street in many a town - look at QLD at the mo.
Even larger ad's like Rocky come to mind.....
Try telling a pilot that he cannot land FREE to provide his service.....
(To those Councils who would dare to allow such a thing...)
Do we pay tolls for EVERY road we use?? I believe not. Should I choose to use a toll road for whatever reason, then that is my choice and I pay accordingly.
I do not pay DIRECTLY to drive down the main street of my town.
I DO pay indirectly thru my various taxes / rates etc and, not to mention the FUEL taxes I pay at the bowser.....
Whch sort of brings us back to the original argument.......N'est-ce pas..??
Cheers
User pays makes sense...
...for the things you actually use.
But, in general, aviation regulation isn't for those that aviate (i.e. the regulated) as much as for the fare-paying public and the safety of the public at large.
Therefore "user pays" in terms of medicals oversight, licensing, some parts of ATC, security screening, ASIC's, maintenance regulatory oversight etc should be borne by the passengers and by the public at large. i.e. CASA's "cost-recovery" is a crock, IMO.
As far as landing charges, approach charges et al - these are revenue streams that are needed for aviation to physcially take place - I personally don't have an issue with them as such, except that the government has granted commerical relief to airport operators in terms of regulated land use and also an effective monopoly but also levies fuel tax to complicate this picture...
But, in general, aviation regulation isn't for those that aviate (i.e. the regulated) as much as for the fare-paying public and the safety of the public at large.
Therefore "user pays" in terms of medicals oversight, licensing, some parts of ATC, security screening, ASIC's, maintenance regulatory oversight etc should be borne by the passengers and by the public at large. i.e. CASA's "cost-recovery" is a crock, IMO.
As far as landing charges, approach charges et al - these are revenue streams that are needed for aviation to physcially take place - I personally don't have an issue with them as such, except that the government has granted commerical relief to airport operators in terms of regulated land use and also an effective monopoly but also levies fuel tax to complicate this picture...
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Mr Ops Normal,
I can only assume you are one of the faceless Cad's behind the Pollies
who work so hard to dream up this stuff.
Your post is an insult to the intelligence of the Australian people, and pretty much everyone involved in aviation.
Once upon a time we paid taxes, and in return we expected our government to provide us with services. Now we pay taxes, plus the GST, and we pay
for every single service the government provides at vastly inflated prices,
Just so people like you can piss it up against the wall!!!for no measurable result.
I wonder if the Bureaucrat who dreamed up the "user pays" Philosophy got a knighthood out of it!! was it you??? or are you working towards it??
If you are part of the industry I suggest you are a disgrace...if you are one of the oppressors...well come the revolution!!
I can only assume you are one of the faceless Cad's behind the Pollies
who work so hard to dream up this stuff.
Your post is an insult to the intelligence of the Australian people, and pretty much everyone involved in aviation.
Once upon a time we paid taxes, and in return we expected our government to provide us with services. Now we pay taxes, plus the GST, and we pay
for every single service the government provides at vastly inflated prices,
Just so people like you can piss it up against the wall!!!for no measurable result.
I wonder if the Bureaucrat who dreamed up the "user pays" Philosophy got a knighthood out of it!! was it you??? or are you working towards it??
If you are part of the industry I suggest you are a disgrace...if you are one of the oppressors...well come the revolution!!
Ops...yep,GA is a piddling drop in the bucket...there was a time when the yanks considered our industry a threat and dumped aircraft on our market. There was a time when you had to wait up to half an hour just to get lined up at a secondary aerodrome. There was a time when there was no user fees....GA died 25 years ago because of user fees!
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What is the difference between paying a landing charge for using an airport and paying a toll to use a toll road?
If there were boom gates leading into the towns that like to charge for use of their airport then maybe the playing field would be level...?? There is not, so I suggest that to charge for a facility such as an airport for casual use is nothing short of discrimination against those that choose to fly to that location!
