Williamtown Procedures
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Who currently lives at .... ooooh I don't know .... umm Weipa, or Katherine, or Derby ? Who - let's get down to brass tacks - WANTS to live at Weipa, Katherine, or Derby?
As for local recruitment, to this day I'm still amazed when I remember the number of times friendly locals delivered cakes to the CP or drove through our roadblocks to support an exercise scenario. Activate the dormant bases in the North-West and you'll be turning the young men and women away from a recruiting office in Karratha with a "No Vacancies" sign in the window.
As for relocating 2FTS from Pearce to the North... instructors will go for the right price and, if they don't, there are a few RAF instructors I know who would quite happily take the visa, posting and civilian contract.
Learmonth... diving at Ningaloo, fishing in the Indian Ocean, camping at Millstream-Chichester/Karijini, endless beaches.
Curtin... diving the Rowley Shoals, cruises along the Kimberley, exploring the Bungle Bungles, friendly crocodiles...
Yes it's hot but I live in a place that's just as hot and humid and we're not short of people putting their hand up to come here and live with their families.
Strategically it's no longer an option to have all of the ADF living a city life South of the Brisbane Line. Our resources are North and North-West of the line... and our friends over the equator who desire those resources now have a blue-water navy, substantial lines-of-logistics and the ability to project their land, air and sea forces to Australia.
War's are fought and won by War Bonds. When the money runs out... the war ends and you lose. How much of Australia's income and potential security for bonds would come from resources in Western Australia, the Northern Territory and Queensland?... and how much of Australia's ADF is projected forward of those assets? The depth-in-defence is... where?
The Gorgon Project will contribute in excess of 5% of Australia's GDP... from one location. To leave it without an active ADF presence would be... repeating the lessons of history... lessons that we seem to have forgotten.
The units at Williamstown and Pearce can be disbanded, the assets can be relocated North-West and the personnel can be redeployed or replaced leaving a caretaker unit and the runway. Besides, Perth needs a new airport desperately and Pearce would be a perfect addition (with a fast-rail link to Perth).
There is money for it... it's called a Government Stimulus Package... and this is the time in the economic cycle to do it... coincident with the strategic demand.
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Stop it! That's common sense and has no place here!
I'll do it. And I'm not a Pom.
It's hard enough getting instructors to go to Tamworth, coz they all want to go to 2FTS in Perth. "Big city syndrome", I call it.
As for relocating 2FTS from Pearce to the North... instructors will go for the right price
It's hard enough getting instructors to go to Tamworth, coz they all want to go to 2FTS in Perth. "Big city syndrome", I call it.
Quokka - I beg to differ . Lets be realistic here. It's not a myth... It wont affect the bograts but if you are talking about moving the senior dudes with the experience, you know the guys with kids at a good school, a wife with a stable job (what jobs are they going to get at exmouth/broome/weipa if they are a professional?) + no ROSO, they will vote with their feet. Why individuals think that because people have joined the ADF they forgo the chance have a normal lifestyle and to live in a desirable location is beyond me...
I suppose you think that everyone loves being posted to Tindal because they get to go camping, hunting, fishing etc... Some people do, A lot of people don't. As to Curtin or Learmonth - if people don't like diving or fishing what do you propose they do?
Strategically having those aircraft there or not every single day does not make a difference because :
a) there is no one out there bar the US that could feasibly cross the air sea gap, and b) there is no one out there with the intent to try.
c) ever tried assembling an invasion fleet in secret..seems hard to do and there will be enough pointers to move required assets in time... Cant see it happening myself...
d) if by our friends north of the equator you are talking china, to get to Australia first they are going to have to come through (in no particular order) Taiwan, Phillipines, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia. There is also another small organisation called the USN. China is currently lacking power projection tools like Carriers, AWACS, Tankers, not to mention how the USN and Collins Class Subs would have a field day if they did try to sail down to Aus.....
Strategically for Australia to attempt to move Willytown would be a fail because a lot of the pilots and troops that you have spent invested a significant amount in time and money to train will vote with their feet. Financially it will be huge. You are talking about the infrastructure and personnel for 6 flying squadrons (2, 3, 4, 76, 77 & OCU) plus all of their support (ATC, Fire, Health, 2x wing HQ's, 1x FEG HQ, an ECSS, BAe, Boeing, Raytheon, cleaners, blanket stackers etc..). I realise there is a runway where you are talking, but there isn't actually much else.
However if you read this and still think that it is a feasible, realistic and financially worthwhile thing to do that will not have an impact on recruitment & retention, good luck with that.
I suppose you think that everyone loves being posted to Tindal because they get to go camping, hunting, fishing etc... Some people do, A lot of people don't. As to Curtin or Learmonth - if people don't like diving or fishing what do you propose they do?
Strategically having those aircraft there or not every single day does not make a difference because :
a) there is no one out there bar the US that could feasibly cross the air sea gap, and b) there is no one out there with the intent to try.
c) ever tried assembling an invasion fleet in secret..seems hard to do and there will be enough pointers to move required assets in time... Cant see it happening myself...
d) if by our friends north of the equator you are talking china, to get to Australia first they are going to have to come through (in no particular order) Taiwan, Phillipines, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia. There is also another small organisation called the USN. China is currently lacking power projection tools like Carriers, AWACS, Tankers, not to mention how the USN and Collins Class Subs would have a field day if they did try to sail down to Aus.....
Strategically for Australia to attempt to move Willytown would be a fail because a lot of the pilots and troops that you have spent invested a significant amount in time and money to train will vote with their feet. Financially it will be huge. You are talking about the infrastructure and personnel for 6 flying squadrons (2, 3, 4, 76, 77 & OCU) plus all of their support (ATC, Fire, Health, 2x wing HQ's, 1x FEG HQ, an ECSS, BAe, Boeing, Raytheon, cleaners, blanket stackers etc..). I realise there is a runway where you are talking, but there isn't actually much else.
However if you read this and still think that it is a feasible, realistic and financially worthwhile thing to do that will not have an impact on recruitment & retention, good luck with that.
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For once I agree with you Dick! I can't see any reason why a VFR aircraft should be held up given those circumstances.
On a similar note I have been held at the holding point for one two waiting to depart, while an A320 who has not yet reached the outer marker is allowed to land. The WX at the time was broken at 3000!
The other thing that really needs to be looked at is the control steps, 9000 to 25 miles just doesn't work (without some effort), in most civilian aircraft.
On a similar note I have been held at the holding point for one two waiting to depart, while an A320 who has not yet reached the outer marker is allowed to land. The WX at the time was broken at 3000!
The other thing that really needs to be looked at is the control steps, 9000 to 25 miles just doesn't work (without some effort), in most civilian aircraft.
G'Day 'HH', hope all is good there & yr savin' lives:-)
Don't get me started on our CTA steps around the major airports. Only here in Oz ( I believe) do we have such a crazy situation where transport cat A/C have to make sure they don't go OCTA (or into Class E with VFR lighites) whilst going into a major airport designed for such activities! Simply nuts!
I reckon our ATC'ers do a great job with a set of stupid rules!
Wmk2
Don't get me started on our CTA steps around the major airports. Only here in Oz ( I believe) do we have such a crazy situation where transport cat A/C have to make sure they don't go OCTA (or into Class E with VFR lighites) whilst going into a major airport designed for such activities! Simply nuts!
I reckon our ATC'ers do a great job with a set of stupid rules!
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This thread is funny, I love how dick gets held up (correctly IMO, with current procedures and priorities) then bitches about it on this forum and it becomes a "Lets move ADF bases because they are a pain".
Lets look a Dicks problem of being held on the coast first up.
Say we did have class D Twr at Willy and he was allowed up the coast at 500' with traffic. An IFR jet (or anything) departs off RWY 12 and has a problem (or the Air ambulance does a MAP) and now the two aircraft are in each others way ! They both get further traffic advice (its now class d) on each other, the jet with problem is busy, can't see Dick and increases their workload. Dick can't see the jet with a problem either and is now asking lots of questions and adding to other PIC's workload. And on it goes. Could end up as nothing, could be a sep breakdown or could end badly. There are lots of "what if's" but if it were to happen, Dick would be on here bleating about what a poor service he just received from Willy and that with Radar we should be doing better and it should be Class C. Can't win either way.
Im situations like these, I like to have positive separation, as I have been caught by too many VFR pilots who simply have no idea what they are doing and cannot be relied upon to follow simple instructions, let alone arrange their own separation.
Moving bases;
Go for it people. A couple of problems though. You will have trouble staffing these bases for many, many years and it will cost billions of dollars. No Govn. will commit to spending the sort of money required to move major bases, it would be political suicuide and then we would have Dick on here bleating about more wasted money. Have people seriously thought about how much money Military bases contribute to local economies and the flow on effect if they were to move?
flighthappens said,
Yep, that was me and so have plenty of friends.
WallyMk2 said,
Excellent statement.
Lets look a Dicks problem of being held on the coast first up.
Say we did have class D Twr at Willy and he was allowed up the coast at 500' with traffic. An IFR jet (or anything) departs off RWY 12 and has a problem (or the Air ambulance does a MAP) and now the two aircraft are in each others way ! They both get further traffic advice (its now class d) on each other, the jet with problem is busy, can't see Dick and increases their workload. Dick can't see the jet with a problem either and is now asking lots of questions and adding to other PIC's workload. And on it goes. Could end up as nothing, could be a sep breakdown or could end badly. There are lots of "what if's" but if it were to happen, Dick would be on here bleating about what a poor service he just received from Willy and that with Radar we should be doing better and it should be Class C. Can't win either way.
Im situations like these, I like to have positive separation, as I have been caught by too many VFR pilots who simply have no idea what they are doing and cannot be relied upon to follow simple instructions, let alone arrange their own separation.
Moving bases;
Go for it people. A couple of problems though. You will have trouble staffing these bases for many, many years and it will cost billions of dollars. No Govn. will commit to spending the sort of money required to move major bases, it would be political suicuide and then we would have Dick on here bleating about more wasted money. Have people seriously thought about how much money Military bases contribute to local economies and the flow on effect if they were to move?
flighthappens said,
Lets be realistic here. It's not a myth... It wont affect the bograts but if you are talking about moving the senior dudes with the experience, you know the guys with kids at a good school, a wife with a stable job (what jobs are they going to get at exmouth/broome/weipa if they are a professional?) + no ROSO, they will vote with their feet
WallyMk2 said,
I reckon our ATC'ers do a great job with a set of stupid rules!
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Out of interest sake this being a pilots rumour network, how many are pilots and how many are controllers posting on this thread? I'll start........Pilot. If your an ATC and also fly, don't be afraid to let us know where your priorities lie. 
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Can fully agree with you Dick!
Why the hell did they put a VFR lane up the Coast at 500ft any way?
Its not rocket science.
HH is right the distance they allow between aircraft departing and arriving is strange,
and that comes from arriving and departing willy on hundreds off occasions.
The Dog
Why the hell did they put a VFR lane up the Coast at 500ft any way?
Its not rocket science.
HH is right the distance they allow between aircraft departing and arriving is strange,
and that comes from arriving and departing willy on hundreds off occasions.
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Super Cecil,
I'm ATC but hold PPL fixed wind. Started rotary but ran out of money. I thought about MIL pilot, but at the time was too old, so got a gig in ATC instead.
My priorities don't lie with either, I prefer to pass on what I learn't from flying to others I have trained in ATC and also when I control. I am one small part of a system, whose job is to provide a service to pilots using the current rules and procedures. I have posted many times that ATC need to get out and go flying as much as they can and aircrew need to make the effort to visit ATC.
Many questions get answered and people get to understand each others issues, etc.
A bit of mutual understanding can go a long way.
I'm ATC but hold PPL fixed wind. Started rotary but ran out of money. I thought about MIL pilot, but at the time was too old, so got a gig in ATC instead.
My priorities don't lie with either, I prefer to pass on what I learn't from flying to others I have trained in ATC and also when I control. I am one small part of a system, whose job is to provide a service to pilots using the current rules and procedures. I have posted many times that ATC need to get out and go flying as much as they can and aircrew need to make the effort to visit ATC.
Many questions get answered and people get to understand each others issues, etc.
A bit of mutual understanding can go a long way.
Thread Starter
C-change, you state,
C-change, from this it is quite clear you simply have no idea on how professional air traffic controllers work in countries like the United States and Canada. They don’t end up with people in Class C airspace (I have never asked for or wanted Class D at Williamtown) relying on pilots arranging their own separation. They use techniques which allow them to keep the aircraft apart without having to hold aircraft unnecessarily.
I mentioned in a previous post the tower having airspace or the radar controller being allowed to use target resolution procedures. Why don’t you answer this? Tell me: why in the United States and Canada – with possibly twenty times the number of pilots - don’t they have the problem you are claiming, i.e. pilots who “cannot be relied upon to follow simple instructions”.
Surely if this was a problem in the United States and Canada they would have changed the procedures to that which you use at Williamtown? They haven’t, because I have spoken to the controllers at Class C towers and they simply cannot believe the ineptitude of the Australian system.
Yes, I know – it’s not the air traffic controllers’ responsibility to bring in modern regulations. That’s why I am criticising the non-leadership in the RAAF.
For over twenty-five years they have known that there are procedures which allow controllers to facilitate traffic at very high levels of safety, yet they have never made a change.
I know why. It’s because they could be held responsible for making a change, and they are in their positions of hierarchy because they never make a decision that they can ever be held responsible for.
Luckily, these people will be sacked if we have a real war, and some competent people will be appointed who will take the responsibility of making decisions that benefit the whole country, not just one person not being held accountable.
Im situations like these, I like to have positive separation, as I have been caught by too many VFR pilots who simply have no idea what they are doing and cannot be relied upon to follow simple instructions, let alone arrange their own separation.
I mentioned in a previous post the tower having airspace or the radar controller being allowed to use target resolution procedures. Why don’t you answer this? Tell me: why in the United States and Canada – with possibly twenty times the number of pilots - don’t they have the problem you are claiming, i.e. pilots who “cannot be relied upon to follow simple instructions”.
Surely if this was a problem in the United States and Canada they would have changed the procedures to that which you use at Williamtown? They haven’t, because I have spoken to the controllers at Class C towers and they simply cannot believe the ineptitude of the Australian system.
Yes, I know – it’s not the air traffic controllers’ responsibility to bring in modern regulations. That’s why I am criticising the non-leadership in the RAAF.
For over twenty-five years they have known that there are procedures which allow controllers to facilitate traffic at very high levels of safety, yet they have never made a change.
I know why. It’s because they could be held responsible for making a change, and they are in their positions of hierarchy because they never make a decision that they can ever be held responsible for.
Luckily, these people will be sacked if we have a real war, and some competent people will be appointed who will take the responsibility of making decisions that benefit the whole country, not just one person not being held accountable.
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Dick
Defence has been fighting Real wars for quite a few years and are currently involved in a couple right now - and they do quite well thank you
Regarding sea sprites I have suggested in a previous post that you should look into the acquisition process rather then focus on service personnel. Defence and the services are different. A service may ask for a capability but in reality they have very little control over what DMO or politics acquire. Do you really believe navy wanted the sea sprite! It came in because of the industry and political influences involved in tendering for the malaysian OPV project.....
I've never been delayed going up the coastal route but obviously others have, so yes fight for reform - but please don't be so broad with your opinions of Defence SERVICE Personnel no matter what rank they hold
Luckily, these people will be sacked if we have a real war, and some competent people will be appointed who will take the responsibility of making decisions that benefit the whole country, not just one person not being held accountable.
Regarding sea sprites I have suggested in a previous post that you should look into the acquisition process rather then focus on service personnel. Defence and the services are different. A service may ask for a capability but in reality they have very little control over what DMO or politics acquire. Do you really believe navy wanted the sea sprite! It came in because of the industry and political influences involved in tendering for the malaysian OPV project.....
I've never been delayed going up the coastal route but obviously others have, so yes fight for reform - but please don't be so broad with your opinions of Defence SERVICE Personnel no matter what rank they hold
Luckily, these people will be sacked if we have a real war
Your comment is beneath contempt and an insult to every person who has or is serving in uniform.
Thread Starter
YPJT
Surely it is obvious that the Minister for Defence or the CDF will do nothing about this.
Onemore, I will make it quite clear again, I am not criticising the people who do the actual work. It is just the non decision makers above. I wonder how many people have needlessly died in our military because of straight out incompetence of those in the hierarchy when it comes to asking advice and following the best from overseas. No doubt this will only come up when there is a proper royal commission – otherwise they all protect themselves.
Why if there was a decision maker in the Defence, haven’t they said in the last 25 years something like ”Mr Smith we can’t follow the procedures in Class C that are used in countries like the United States and Canada for the following reasons….”. In fact, these people – right at the top have told me they are making the changes, but it never happens. No doubt it never happens because the person who is delegated to do the job suddenly realises that they may be held accountable for changes they make and what has been pushed into the system for years is the fact that if you don’t make a decision it is most likely you will see your career through and never be held responsible for anything.
Yes, I am very much concerned about our forces that are overseas – because it is obvious that there is a complete mentality within the hierarchy in the Defence Force to never ask advice and never copy the success of others. That will only result in unnecessary lives being lost. I will not move away from this and hopefully some changes will be made before there is a catastrophe.
YPJT and Onemmore, why don’t you comment on why we are so different with our Class C procedures, with countries like the United States and Canada. Surely there must be a reason. Don’t try and tell that Australian pilots are less responsible or Australian airtraffic controllers and those in the military are not as competent. I don’t believe any of that. I simply see it as a shocking lack of leadership which is letting the whole country down through the waste.
Surely it is obvious that the Minister for Defence or the CDF will do nothing about this.
Onemore, I will make it quite clear again, I am not criticising the people who do the actual work. It is just the non decision makers above. I wonder how many people have needlessly died in our military because of straight out incompetence of those in the hierarchy when it comes to asking advice and following the best from overseas. No doubt this will only come up when there is a proper royal commission – otherwise they all protect themselves.
Why if there was a decision maker in the Defence, haven’t they said in the last 25 years something like ”Mr Smith we can’t follow the procedures in Class C that are used in countries like the United States and Canada for the following reasons….”. In fact, these people – right at the top have told me they are making the changes, but it never happens. No doubt it never happens because the person who is delegated to do the job suddenly realises that they may be held accountable for changes they make and what has been pushed into the system for years is the fact that if you don’t make a decision it is most likely you will see your career through and never be held responsible for anything.
Yes, I am very much concerned about our forces that are overseas – because it is obvious that there is a complete mentality within the hierarchy in the Defence Force to never ask advice and never copy the success of others. That will only result in unnecessary lives being lost. I will not move away from this and hopefully some changes will be made before there is a catastrophe.
YPJT and Onemmore, why don’t you comment on why we are so different with our Class C procedures, with countries like the United States and Canada. Surely there must be a reason. Don’t try and tell that Australian pilots are less responsible or Australian airtraffic controllers and those in the military are not as competent. I don’t believe any of that. I simply see it as a shocking lack of leadership which is letting the whole country down through the waste.
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Dick, you are stereotyping everyone leader in the Defence Force as incompetent because you don't agree with something. You need to develop a better understanding of the ADF, Capability Management, budget constraints, resource shortages and the fact that just about everyone in Defence is a decision maker - it's a team thing not the dictator structure you believe.
You can't call every service leader incompetent because of some poor projects without acknowledging the government process that applies in large projects.
As for will airspace, I agree it might be nice to be easier But it's hardly dangerous. Just maybe Defence would like to make it easier (theorectically) it's quite possible that there just are t enough resources to review and adopt new procedures. My guess is giving you and me a quicker clearance for a beach run is probably a little bit lower in the scheme of things considering the current operational tempo of the ADF.
I can't comment on overseas systems Dick, because I don't have the knowledge or experience
As I said I don't disagree it should be easier I just can't agree with you making branding the entire Defence force as idiots.
You can't call every service leader incompetent because of some poor projects without acknowledging the government process that applies in large projects.
As for will airspace, I agree it might be nice to be easier But it's hardly dangerous. Just maybe Defence would like to make it easier (theorectically) it's quite possible that there just are t enough resources to review and adopt new procedures. My guess is giving you and me a quicker clearance for a beach run is probably a little bit lower in the scheme of things considering the current operational tempo of the ADF.
I can't comment on overseas systems Dick, because I don't have the knowledge or experience
As I said I don't disagree it should be easier I just can't agree with you making branding the entire Defence force as idiots.
Last edited by onemore; 17th Jan 2011 at 05:07.
Ever noticed that London, New York, Paris and Moscow have a much better public transport system than us? Because they have population and density. Could it be a cost issue preventing us from operating like they do in the US?
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JPJT;
How very disappointing to have somebody so crass as to criticise an Australian of the Year as being beneath contempt with regard The Australian Defence Forces.
History is full of Military incompetence. It continues today.
Landing an Army on the wrong beach and fighting a loosing battle and bugging out in the night is a matter of historical record, not a criticism of the PBI.
People like you make me wonder about my motives for wearing the uniform to defend the freedoms you enjoy today.
All so you can have a cheap anonymous shot at someone you don't like.
Piss weak. What have you achieved?
How very disappointing to have somebody so crass as to criticise an Australian of the Year as being beneath contempt with regard The Australian Defence Forces.
History is full of Military incompetence. It continues today.
Landing an Army on the wrong beach and fighting a loosing battle and bugging out in the night is a matter of historical record, not a criticism of the PBI.
People like you make me wonder about my motives for wearing the uniform to defend the freedoms you enjoy today.
All so you can have a cheap anonymous shot at someone you don't like.
Piss weak. What have you achieved?
People like you make me wonder about my motives for wearing the uniform to defend the freedoms you enjoy today.
And pray tell, since when did receiving an honour bestow some divine protection from a provoked reaction?
Last edited by YPJT; 17th Jan 2011 at 06:04.
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I used to wonder the same thing when I was in uniform about people who would take a cheap shot to further their own petty agenas.
Hi Dick, long time no see ...
I believe that's been answered for you many times. Unfortunately, you can't accept it, so you keep asking the question until you, hopefully, get an answer you like.
It's easy ... the answer is still that these places are all different ! Different populations, different geographies, different technologies, different facilities, different philosophies.
As an example.... Ho Chi Minh City and Sydney have similar road rules(believe it or not). However, have you ever tried to cross a road in HCMC? If you used the same technique in Sydney ... you'd be road kill. Why is this?
The reasons I mentioned above.
YPJT and Onemmore, why don’t you comment on why we are so different with our Class C procedures, with countries like the United States and Canada
It's easy ... the answer is still that these places are all different ! Different populations, different geographies, different technologies, different facilities, different philosophies.
As an example.... Ho Chi Minh City and Sydney have similar road rules(believe it or not). However, have you ever tried to cross a road in HCMC? If you used the same technique in Sydney ... you'd be road kill. Why is this?
The reasons I mentioned above.
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G'day Dick,
I'll attempt to answer but I also need some additional info.
Yes and no. I have worked with many Candian, US, UK and Sth African controllers over the years but I have never controlled outside Aus. When we have discussed different procedures, I have often agreed that they have better procedures in some instances and they have also agreed that we do some things better. Horses for courses I guess. From my seat, I live and work here in Oz and as I'm an employee, I work with the rules and procedures that I'm allowed too. I can't just make it up as I go to suit the traffic. If the rule makers change their minds (and they do frequenctly) I live with and get on with it.
Because I don't really know what you want. What are "target resolution procedures" ? What do you mean by this ? I'm not taking the piss by the way.
Are you looking for a reduction in the Radar separation standard of 3Nm between returns ? How will the Tower having the airspace help your example? Aircraft in the VFR coastal lane are very difficult to see from Willy Twr.
Also, if you felt holding was placing you in any sort of danger, did you ask for a higher lever, direct to the field to overfly ?
I'll attempt to answer but I also need some additional info.
C-change, from this it is quite clear you simply have no idea on how professional air traffic controllers work in countries like the United States and Canada.
I mentioned in a previous post the tower having airspace or the radar controller being allowed to use target resolution procedures. Why don’t you answer this?
Are you looking for a reduction in the Radar separation standard of 3Nm between returns ? How will the Tower having the airspace help your example? Aircraft in the VFR coastal lane are very difficult to see from Willy Twr.
Also, if you felt holding was placing you in any sort of danger, did you ask for a higher lever, direct to the field to overfly ?
Last edited by C-change; 17th Jan 2011 at 21:41. Reason: typo