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Williamtown Procedures

Old 13th Jan 2011, 14:43
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Is there some reason you can't be tracked at 1500 over the top of the field?

Works in Brisbane quite well
4 ship of Hornets at 550K at 1500ft?
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 19:38
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Controller Attitudes

When my old friend Geoff Goodall was re-training US controllers for Airservices he says that his first words to them were. "In the States your aim was to move traffic. Forget that. Out here its to obey regulations".
Yes I know that there are many reasons why Mick is still missing in the Barringtons. The pivotal one is that he wasn't allowed down the coast, same as the Mooney.
I don't go with the "you don't know how many aircraft are really there" crap. It isn't hard to work that out after a few years listening. Precious few. And we bought them a handy radar set as well, which appears to be a mystery to them.
I would love to drop these blokes and their bosses into Tan Son Nhut in 1966. We would have had to cancel the war.
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 19:52
  #23 (permalink)  
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Like This

The reason I go into the Anzac march each year is that I respect those who have risked their lives to ensure that I and others have the freedoms that some of us take for granted.

Freedoms like being able to. "say it how it is" about important issues.

For example I was one of the few who spoke publically about the shocking public waste of the Seasprite $1.2 billion stuff up. Note that no one responsible in the military has been held accountable or even identified.

No doubt most of that money went to the USA and meant less for Military families here.

This no doubt means nothing has been learnt and is probably about to be repeated with the JSF. Project.

I have been working on this issue for 28 years. Some real successes when it comes to civilian ATC procedures and airspace. Imagine if non radar airspace at places like Coffs Harbour still went out to 19 nm at ground level or if ATC's still had to procedurally separate VFR helicopters from each other!

When it comes to the military leadership they have lied by stating they will embrace modern procedures that have been proven safe but then do zero.

There must be something drastically wrong with the system in relation to advancement and this must result in the troops being constantly let down.
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 21:56
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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For example I was one of the few who spoke publically about the shocking public waste of the Seasprite $1.2 billion stuff up. Note that no one responsible in the military has been held accountable or even identified.
In all due respect Dick, you are successful a business man as well as an intelligent individual who has higher links to government individuals than the general populous. Are you really surprised that no accountability for the Seasprite debacle has been apportioned ? What about the Collins subs, BER, 'dodgy batts' and other monumental stuff-ups buried under the guise of spin and cheap political statements, the false security blanket called 'stimulus' which actually only benefits businessmen such as yourself (no offence) and defers the bursting of the big bubble by a few extra years. Throw into the equation the false value of 'paper money', the complete con that is called the Federal Reserve System ( I am sure you understand it's origins and what it actually does - makes a handful of welathy families extremely rich and powerful and not much else), fiat money, bank bailouts (another con that basically sees that taxpayers pay for the excess greed of wealthy businessmen), printing money, America's woeful debt situation in which they are bankrupt and trying unbelievably and ludicrously to increase the nations debt ceiling which will see them collapse into oblivion yet they continue to lie to and fool the masses with statements such as 'good fiscal policy' and 'improved outlook' and you say as an example 'Note that no one responsible in the military has been held accountable or even identified'.

C'mon Dick, you should know better than to waste your time questioning or raising such issues publicly. You should know better than most my entrepreneurial friend that even YOU are 'David vs Goliath' when you go up against the powers to be. If you are seeking clear and honest answers as well as the name or identification of an accountable individual then you have confused government with business. Two very different structures mate. I would suggest you put such time and energy into planting crops in Ethiopia or feeding the homeless on weeknights (maybe you already do), or embarking on another worldwide solo chopper journey to raise money for charity. You will get a lot more personal satisfaction out of that and a far better mental and emotional reward than asking any governemnt for honesty or accountability.

'Fallaces sunt rerum species'
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Old 14th Jan 2011, 00:19
  #25 (permalink)  
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gobbledock

Whilst I agree with most of what you say, I can assure you I have been able to make some major changes by putting a lot of effort in. I won’t start to give examples here because people will start abusing the PPRuNe process.

I can assure you that one day we will get the Williamtown procedures to reflect what is proven in other countries in the world and even at places like Canberra where they have tower airspace.

One day there will be a person of competence in one of these positions in the Air Force, and he or she will make the changes quickly.
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Old 14th Jan 2011, 00:31
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Willi was busy in my day. The VFR coastal route was well used. Sent a QF B747 up the lane one day [traffic is two C172's southbound!] at 500'....

No worries...
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Old 14th Jan 2011, 22:48
  #27 (permalink)  
NTZ
 
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I understand that this particular example may be a a segue into the general procedures in use, but a lot of the ones used at Willy were born of experience. Often these were more restrictive or an addition to existing standards because of the type of operations in use and were aimed at the lowest denominator (i.e typical GA pilot with little 'mixing it with military aircraft' experience).

Why? Because regardless of who was at fault or who misunderstood what, it was the controllers who had to clean the mess up (traffic alerts, emergency separation, paperwork and stand down from duties pending investigation).

The reason that this particular procedure is in place was because we cannot ensure that separation STANDARDS (Government decides them, not Military, not ATC) will remain with the IFR Aircraft conducting the ILS and transiting VFR aircraft, regardless off the weather conditions. On past experience, it is far easier to delay than deal with the (often weekly) consequences of passing on that responsibility when dealing with low vis aircraft at 450KT piloted by student fighter pilots.

I understand how frustrating that it is, but it is life. We now cater for the people who get it wrong, not the ones who get it right.
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Old 15th Jan 2011, 00:40
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe its time to move the fighter base to somewhere more suitable for that sort of activity, rather than have it disrupting civie traffic between Australia's 1st and 3rd largest cities.

Scherger comes to mind!


Dr
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Old 15th Jan 2011, 03:35
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Imagine the cost of that though! All so lighties don't get delayed in the VFR coastal lane?
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Old 15th Jan 2011, 04:43
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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We now cater for the people who get it wrong, not the ones who get it right.
It seems to me that there are more traps out there that increase the risk of ‘getting it wrong’ these days, and the current Williamtown lane arrangements provide a typical example.

Purely coincidentally, I was planning a trip to Canberra to Taree and back, via the inland and coastal Williamtown lanes, when this thread appeared. I was looking at the current Newcastle/Williamtown VTC.

The inland lane is comprised of D589A and D589B. I noticed that the map shows the upper level of D589A as ‘1600’, and the upper level of D589B as ‘2000’. However, the explanatory text on the VTC, under the heading ‘General Aviation Routes Through Williamtown Airspace’, says the upper limit of D589A is ‘1000’ and the upper limit of D589B is ‘1500’.

So in summary:

- for D589A the map shows the upper limit as 1600 and the explanatory text says the upper limit is 1000, and

- for D589B the map shows the upper limit at 2000 and the explanatory text says the upper limit is 1500.

I searched the (invariably voluminous) FIR/HO/location-specific NOTAMS to see if there’s anything correcting info about D589A/B on the VTC – nothing found.

I realised that it is possible to reconcile the text with the map. It is possible that the combination of text and map means that you can fly up/down the lane at or below 1000/1500 without notifying Willy ATC (in accordance with the text), but if you want to fly above 1000/1500 up to 1600/2000 you have to notify Willy ATC.

But I’m confused, so I call Briefing. A very helpful chap says he’s not sure whether there’s an error, so he will check with Willy ATC. He gets back to me very quickly, and says that the text on the VTC is wrong but the map upper limits are correct, and I’m the first person to have queried the discrepancy (in a document published nearly two months previously).

So notwithstanding all the money we pay to keep our charts up to date these days, and notwithstanding the seemingly inexorable increase in the volume of NOTAMS we have to wade through to check whether, for example, the up to date charts we’ve paid for nonetheless contain mistakes, we can’t seem to get the complete, accurate and consistent information published. (Not criticising individuals at the ‘coal face’ here by the way – I’ll bet my pension that the cause is systemic.)

Now as it turns out, operations in accordance with the upper limits printed on the
VTC map rather than in the explanatory text will be OK (assuming, of course, that the oral advice I was passed by Briefing is accurate). But it could just as easily have been the other way around, and someone flying in accordance with the map limits rather than explanatory text limits would be labeled as one of the ‘lowest common denominator’ pilots who ‘gets it wrong’ and around whom these procedures must be designed.

If the limits printed on the map are the ‘Bible’, why print the limits in the explanatory text?

We used to get this stuff correct, almost all of the time.

I can remember being surprised a dozen or so years ago when a NOTAM was published, correcting a mistake on an ERC(L) to which I had a subscription. These days, there seem to be NOTAMS making corrections to almost every published document.

When I learnt to fly, a nice person in Briefing Office was able to identify the 3 or 4 NOTAMS applicable to my plan, within about 30 seconds, and those NOTAMS plus the published documents presented a clear, consistent picture.

I’m now at the point at which I have nagging doubts about the completeness, accuracy and consistency of everything I have to use and check, and nagging doubts about whether I spotted the two potentially relevant sentences in 24 pages of briefing material.

If someone purchased the up to date Newcastle/Williamtown VTC and checked NOTAMS today, they’d still be none the wiser about whether the difference between the map and explanatory text relating to D589 was deliberate or unintended.

I hear rumours about pilots who don’t purchase up to date charts, and don’t check NOTAMS. I’m not condoning this practice – indeed, I condemn it - but should we be surprised if it exists?
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Old 15th Jan 2011, 05:02
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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These days, there seem to be NOTAMS making corrections to almost every published document.
Clinton;

These days nearly every rule has an "exemption". Indeed most airlines, aeromedical, firefighting, police, experimental and, even RAA operate on "exemptions". You know that.
The lack of a serious regulatory review process comes to mind, but didn't you say that years ago?

Maybe its time to move the fighter base to somewhere more suitable for that sort of activity
Butterworth would be a good place.
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Old 15th Jan 2011, 05:27
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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A vast nation with so much land, so lets throw as many military bases smack bang in the middle off every large town and city in the nation.
You are joking, aren't you? When were those military bases put where they are now?

I suppose you're the president of the "Let's move near an airport" "Geez it's noisy!" "Make 'em move the airport" society?

says that the text on the VTC is wrong but the map upper limits are correct, and I’m the first person to have queried the discrepancy (in a document published nearly two months previously).
Just goes to show the "professionalism" of the people who fly though the lanes, eh?
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Old 15th Jan 2011, 05:44
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Just goes to show the "professionalism" of the people who fly though the lanes, eh?
That was my initial thought, but then I thought we might just as easily say: ‘Just goes to show the “professionalism” of the people who do the quality control on the maps and information contained in the VTC, and of the people who should have published, but have yet to publish, a NOTAM resolving the discrepancy.’

If the AIP and ADF ATC systems are creaking at the seams, due to insufficient resources rather than a lack of ‘professionalism’ of individuals in those systems, perhaps individual pilots are entitled to some slack as well. Although I wouldn’t do it, I can understand why some pilots might plan and operate against the map information alone, in the absence of a NOTAM correcting that information. As it turns out, they would be operating in accordance with the intended limits.
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Old 15th Jan 2011, 05:52
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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There does seem to be something wrong here.

When I was in Alaska a few months ago I observed:

1) Ted Stevens Anchorage Int Airport (busy international airport)
2) Lake Hood seaplane base (biggest seaplane base in the world)
3) Merril Field (secondary airport for Anchorage)
4) Elmendorf Airforce Base (lots of figher jets coming and going)
5) Fort Richardson (military airfield)
6) Campbell airstrip

all within about a 10 mile radius of Anchorage!

Did you get that? Six (6), that's "s" "i" "x", six aerodromes in a 10 mile radius !!!!!

Lots of aeroplanes coming and going with what appearred to be a minimum of fuss and bother.

Dr
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Old 15th Jan 2011, 07:06
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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just curious - did a mod or Dick change the thread title?
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Old 15th Jan 2011, 07:19
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Who currently lives at .... ooooh I don't know .... umm Weipa, or Katherine, or Derby ? Who - let's get down to brass tacks - WANTS to live at Weipa, Katherine, or Derby?

OK, so why are RAAF knucks (and spanners and techos and controllers and ADGs and clerks and firies) any different? Are people REALLY willing to utterly destroy recruitment and retention amongst the most expensive to train commonwealth employees, just so bugsmashers (and I'm one) can fly more conveniently through the Hunter Valley?

C'mon ....
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Old 15th Jan 2011, 09:03
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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They could co-exist with a minimum of effort.
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Old 15th Jan 2011, 09:34
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Dick,

Was the Air Ambulance conducting an ILS RWY12 by any chance?

Also, by all means have a crack at procedures, airspace etc but the comment on deserving low morale was below the belt.

Some one made mention of all the "Navy Airspace" and that they don't have jets. Well done, you are correct but you've forgotten about the ships that like to fire shells, from many miles away. The shells also travel a bit faster than most jets.


For some of the others out there gobbing off, try and remember some of the work our Military personnel are currently engaged in !

Australian soldiers brave flood waters | The Daily Telegraph

Queensland floods: Troops head to Ipswich to aid clean-up | The Daily Telegraph
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Old 15th Jan 2011, 10:15
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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You are joking, aren't you? When were those military bases put where they are now?
I dont think its the location thats the problem, but in this modern era, with modern surveillance, GPS and other technologies, does the airspace around those bases have to be so monstrously large and difficult to get through?
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Old 15th Jan 2011, 10:55
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Also, by all means have a crack at procedures, airspace etc but the comment on deserving low morale was below the belt.
No, lets just slag/defame/slander the people on the frontline who AREN'T responsible for the mess aviation is.
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