What's REX going to do?
Thread Starter
What's REX going to do?
Does anyone have any idea what REX are doing with regard to their cadets getting a command? They've hired bugger all direct entry guys in the last year and with the industry looking like it might pick up a little this year I would have thought they would be starting to run out of upgradeable FOs.
Am I right in saying that the cadets still have no way of upgrading for a command?
Recently REX said that they are now recruiting 100% cadets ( I think I read that in their senate submission). My understanding is that they will need 500 multi command to upgrade. Where is this coming from?
Not trying to start a REX slanging match. Genuine question.
Am I right in saying that the cadets still have no way of upgrading for a command?
Recently REX said that they are now recruiting 100% cadets ( I think I read that in their senate submission). My understanding is that they will need 500 multi command to upgrade. Where is this coming from?
Not trying to start a REX slanging match. Genuine question.
Yes, ICUS. Most cadets will have quick commands if they hang in there for a while, assuming that Rex survives the onslaught. Because most of their experienced pilots will get soaked up by the new DJ operation (see separate thread).
Impossible you say? Many UK operators have been doing it for years. There was a time when 1500 hours got you a turboprop command and 2500-3000 hours got you a jet command. What's more, they don't crash any more than anywhere else, and a lot less than some places. Their weather is so much worse than some places, too.
Modern automation has certainly helped, but fast track commands have been happening at various stages of the industry cycle since WW2 ended.
Impossible you say? Many UK operators have been doing it for years. There was a time when 1500 hours got you a turboprop command and 2500-3000 hours got you a jet command. What's more, they don't crash any more than anywhere else, and a lot less than some places. Their weather is so much worse than some places, too.
Modern automation has certainly helped, but fast track commands have been happening at various stages of the industry cycle since WW2 ended.
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Mach,
While not disputing your comments, I think your assessment is a little too simplistic.
I doubt there is a politician or aviation bureaucrat alive anywhere in this country, who would put their name to any regulatory change that could be in any way be construed as contributing to a regional airliner accident or incident in the future, regardless of the ultimate cause.
As far as automation goes, lets not forget that automation in all its forms on the flight deck is only an aid to navigation and it is not a replacement for trained, skilled and experienced pilots.
If the GPS and EFIS fails due to electrical problems or lightning strikes, etc, the pilots must be able to land safely using backup instruments, map, compass, pencil, watch and brains. Worldwide there is now a large body of human factors CRM knowledge highlighting the folly of automation over reliance and the associated loss of pilot situational awareness as a contributing factor in accidents and incidents.
Commercial air service operators can 'bleat' about 'poaching' each others pilots and the need for cadet programmes, etc., but the Government and CASA are ultimately responsible for regulating air safety and the media is very active in reminding the public of that responsibility everytime there is an accident or incident.
The Oracle
While not disputing your comments, I think your assessment is a little too simplistic.
I doubt there is a politician or aviation bureaucrat alive anywhere in this country, who would put their name to any regulatory change that could be in any way be construed as contributing to a regional airliner accident or incident in the future, regardless of the ultimate cause.
As far as automation goes, lets not forget that automation in all its forms on the flight deck is only an aid to navigation and it is not a replacement for trained, skilled and experienced pilots.
If the GPS and EFIS fails due to electrical problems or lightning strikes, etc, the pilots must be able to land safely using backup instruments, map, compass, pencil, watch and brains. Worldwide there is now a large body of human factors CRM knowledge highlighting the folly of automation over reliance and the associated loss of pilot situational awareness as a contributing factor in accidents and incidents.
Commercial air service operators can 'bleat' about 'poaching' each others pilots and the need for cadet programmes, etc., but the Government and CASA are ultimately responsible for regulating air safety and the media is very active in reminding the public of that responsibility everytime there is an accident or incident.
The Oracle
Last edited by THE ORACLE; 11th Jan 2011 at 03:18.
who would put their name to any regulatory change
I'm seeing a lot of talk here about icus but not a lot of understanding Rex are unable to conduct ICUS of it's FO's in the right seat. This may change when casa decides to grant them an exception.
Which I'm sure they are falling over each other to do.
Which I'm sure they are falling over each other to do.
I agree with oracle. HOWEVER, no change is required to simply ICUS up the cadets and then give a command. How does Qantas do it with their cadets. Bugger all command time then second officer, first officer then bingo COMMAND. It already happens, Skippers do it in the west.
To ICUS up cadets you would have to make 3/4 of your captains training captains and have them fly in the RHS while cadet is in the LHS seat acting as Captain (Yes I know there is no requirement to be in the LHS to log ICUS but it would make practical sense)
REX would then have to pay all these Captains training captain wages.
Skippers can back door it a bit by putting guys on charter flights and keep them off the RPT services.
After what has happened in the US it would be a very very brave soul who signs off on such a dispensation for Rex. The legal ramifications for CASA of a 1500 hour captain buying the farm with a 250 hour FO doesn't bear thinking about when the agencies in the USA are recommending increasing the minimum experience levels.
Don't forget this ain't Europe and Rex are flying in uncontrolled airspace, mostly with non precision approaches in ice/rain/snow/sleet/duststorms/thunderstorms etc
Something has to be done but lowering the experience levels isn't an option.
My suggesting would be to offer guys guaranteed career progression as being the only way REX will keep anyone.
Last edited by neville_nobody; 11th Jan 2011 at 09:16.
Thread Starter
Yeah I'm well aware of the fact that REX FO's can't presently log ICUS (sorry should have made that clear in the original post). This is why I'm curious as to what they are going to do.
It's as if management know something that no one else does. I agree that it would be pretty stupid and ballsy of CASA to allow an exemption for this to happen.
And what's the point of regs if you're just going to exempt them to suit companies who want to get an unfair competitive advantage by locking their staff in for seven years simply because they won't provide decent T&C's?
So either REX management know something we don't about possible exemptions, or things will get interesting in the coming year.
It's as if management know something that no one else does. I agree that it would be pretty stupid and ballsy of CASA to allow an exemption for this to happen.
And what's the point of regs if you're just going to exempt them to suit companies who want to get an unfair competitive advantage by locking their staff in for seven years simply because they won't provide decent T&C's?
So either REX management know something we don't about possible exemptions, or things will get interesting in the coming year.
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A training capt gets 5% extra. A cadet gets sfa. So why wouldnt Rex make eveyone in the left seat a trainer? When the cadets get the CASA license then on paper they meet the job requirement. Some of you guys are in denial. If they lose drivers cadets will get early commands. Bet. Then REX will be happy to lose the training capt's because they can still pay sfa.
Doesn't QF have an exemption in regards to ICUS and FOs?
In reality, what QF mainline does is log hours in accord with ICAO Annex 1.
Quite why a large number of operators make a rod for their own back in this matter has always mystified me.
Why the AFAP have accepted such a rule, that only disadvantages their members, is an even greater mystery.
Tootle pip!!
ICUS ?
A training capt gets 5% extra. A cadet gets sfa. So why wouldnt Rex make eveyone in the left seat a trainer? When the cadets get the CASA license then on paper they meet the job requirement. Some of you guys are in denial. If they lose drivers cadets will get early commands. Bet. Then REX will be happy to lose the training capt's because they can still pay sfa.
Cadets don't meet the requirements for a command as they don't have a ATPL till they meet the requirements and they will also need 500 multi command which also needs to be negotiated somehow. So without a dispensation or some charter flying these cadets won't be captains any time soon.
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What's REX going to do?
probably just do what they always do!
Blame everyone for their problems, refuse to do anything to RETAIN current drivers, and HOPE like hell for a break in the recruitment drive.
failing that - stop some services, report to the press that the pilots are being unreasonable and won't work extra hard for no extra money, and hope the problem goes away.
probably just do what they always do!
Blame everyone for their problems, refuse to do anything to RETAIN current drivers, and HOPE like hell for a break in the recruitment drive.
failing that - stop some services, report to the press that the pilots are being unreasonable and won't work extra hard for no extra money, and hope the problem goes away.
I repeat. They will ICUS cadets to command just like Skippers and Qantas and every other operator can do if they so wish. As for whether enough of the existing line captains would sign up to be trainers, of course they will. If not for the 5% increment, then to add the qualification to their resumes.
I am not suggesting that this is the best way to acquire experience, but hey, it has worked in many other parts of the world for long enough now to know that if it is done properly it is quite safe. It will work here and we will see a lot more of it in years to come.
I am not suggesting that this is the best way to acquire experience, but hey, it has worked in many other parts of the world for long enough now to know that if it is done properly it is quite safe. It will work here and we will see a lot more of it in years to come.
Thread Starter
I repeat. They will ICUS cadets to command just like Skippers and Qantas and every other operator can do if they so wish.
REX cadets at present CAN NOT log ICUS.
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I worked for a Regional Airline 6 years ago, operating Turboprops and we were working on an ICUS for the FOs with the full support of CASA. I think Macair may have also had an ICUS program.
Originally Posted by Icarus2001
HOWEVER, no change is required to simply ICUS up the cadets and then give a command.
Originally Posted by mcgrath50
Doesn't QF have an exemption in regards to ICUS and FOs?
Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat
I'm seeing a lot of talk here about icus but not a lot of understanding Rex are unable to conduct ICUS of it's FO's in the right seat. This may change when casa decides to grant them an exception.
ICUS can be conducted in private, aerial work, charter, high capacity RPT, and in other than high capacity RPT operations as long it is approved by the operator. Read the CARs, pilots logging ICUS need to be approved by the operator, not by CASA.
Originally Posted by neville_nobody
QF don't have a 500 ME command Requirement due to High Capacity RPT.
If we look at the actual wording ....
"2 000 hours total experience as a pilot, that includes: Command (multi-engine aeroplane) instrument rating 500 hours as pilot in command (or acting as pilot in command under supervision) on multi-engine aeroplanes under the I.F.R.; and 50 hours as pilot in command (or acting as pilot in command under supervision) on the aeroplane type; and 100 hours experience as a pilot on night operations."
Now Rex in their OPS manual may impose more restrictive requirements, that is their business, it would more likely linked to their insurance policy.
Note also all the command hours needed for an ATPL in excess of the command hours required for the issue of a CPL, can also be gained via ICUS.
Originally Posted by Fonz121
Qantas can because they're operate under a high capacity AOC. And I believe Skippers get their cadets hours under charter category and not RPT.
Originally Posted by F111
I worked for a Regional Airline 6 years ago, operating Turboprops and we were working on an ICUS for the FOs with the full support of CASA. I think Macair may have also had an ICUS program.