Ideas / suggestions for a twin
Grandpa Aerotart
TMG I would take a long hard look at the AC50 PA39 has a handle on.
Failing that a really nice low time C414 ex the US - I could put you in contact with trusted people in the states who could find and prebuy inspect such a proposition. They don't work for free of course but they would save you a potential fortune in NOT buying the wrong aircraft.
Turbine wise a good low time C441 ex US would be awesome - quite simply the most excellent twin I have ever flown and as easy to fly as any 400 series Cessna twin. 290kts/FL300+ and you can either take 3 bums 2000nm or 8-10 (double club seating plus crew seats) 600nm.
Or a PT6 powered Conquest 1.
Its a great time to be buying aeroplanes in the US and if the boss hankers after a Citation one of these days perhaps you should be thinking about building time, and corporate experience, that will lead towards that in a logical fashion - in fact a really good C441 is so good the Citation could go on the back burner for many years - there is a reason Cessna stopped making 441s - they wanted to sell Citations and wouldn't have sold many with the C441 still in production.
If you want to do charter pressurisation and some speed are huge selling points...as well as radar/boots/hot props etc in the southern winter.
I think you'd very soon outgrow the Partbanana and you'd be looking to change up again - its essentially a twin C206. Whats a new Partenavia worth?
Hmmm C441 - US$850k
1983 CESSNA CONQUEST II Turboprop Aircraft For Sale At Controller.com
Failing that a really nice low time C414 ex the US - I could put you in contact with trusted people in the states who could find and prebuy inspect such a proposition. They don't work for free of course but they would save you a potential fortune in NOT buying the wrong aircraft.
Turbine wise a good low time C441 ex US would be awesome - quite simply the most excellent twin I have ever flown and as easy to fly as any 400 series Cessna twin. 290kts/FL300+ and you can either take 3 bums 2000nm or 8-10 (double club seating plus crew seats) 600nm.
Or a PT6 powered Conquest 1.
Its a great time to be buying aeroplanes in the US and if the boss hankers after a Citation one of these days perhaps you should be thinking about building time, and corporate experience, that will lead towards that in a logical fashion - in fact a really good C441 is so good the Citation could go on the back burner for many years - there is a reason Cessna stopped making 441s - they wanted to sell Citations and wouldn't have sold many with the C441 still in production.
If you want to do charter pressurisation and some speed are huge selling points...as well as radar/boots/hot props etc in the southern winter.
I think you'd very soon outgrow the Partbanana and you'd be looking to change up again - its essentially a twin C206. Whats a new Partenavia worth?
Hmmm C441 - US$850k
1983 CESSNA CONQUEST II Turboprop Aircraft For Sale At Controller.com
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 30th Dec 2010 at 07:55.
I think you'd very soon outgrow the Partbanana and you'd be looking to change up again - its essentially a twin C206
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AC500 is a great machine. 165 all day every day, 170 out of a perfect example.
AC680 is fantastic machine, well balanced and good load, between 185 and 200 with 600-700kgs load (depending on how you balance it). Not as good range as a 500 with aux tanks though. Biggest downside is that there are only 3 IO720 680s in aus that I'm aware of and CASA is not pleased with any of them.
TS did all Todd's training and knows the Panther and Mojave well. From those that have flown them, the Mojave is as good as a piston gets.
I wouldn't be letting anyone with less than 500me cmd fly any of these; other than the shrike. Even they can be destroyed by the wrong attitude.
AC680 is fantastic machine, well balanced and good load, between 185 and 200 with 600-700kgs load (depending on how you balance it). Not as good range as a 500 with aux tanks though. Biggest downside is that there are only 3 IO720 680s in aus that I'm aware of and CASA is not pleased with any of them.
TS did all Todd's training and knows the Panther and Mojave well. From those that have flown them, the Mojave is as good as a piston gets.
I wouldn't be letting anyone with less than 500me cmd fly any of these; other than the shrike. Even they can be destroyed by the wrong attitude.
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Don't dick around, get a C90 or B200; or as Chuck said, a nice C425 or 441.
IFR CHTR approval is not that difficult for a PC12 either and that would suit your stated purposes admirably.
If the budgets not up to a turbine, go a C414 or C421, or a C404 if you don't want the pressurisation. A good PA31 310 or 350 is also worth a look (I have a very sweet low-time refurbed one available). Forget the Panther mods.
If your budget will struggle with any of these options, you're kidding yourself; stick to the 206.
No '6 seat' light twin (B55/58, C310; AC50; PN68; PA60 etc) will be any good for filling the seats. An Aztruck would do it - mine did an honest 170kt with 6 x adults - but like all light twins, they are all getting old.
IFR CHTR approval is not that difficult for a PC12 either and that would suit your stated purposes admirably.
If the budgets not up to a turbine, go a C414 or C421, or a C404 if you don't want the pressurisation. A good PA31 310 or 350 is also worth a look (I have a very sweet low-time refurbed one available). Forget the Panther mods.
If your budget will struggle with any of these options, you're kidding yourself; stick to the 206.No '6 seat' light twin (B55/58, C310; AC50; PN68; PA60 etc) will be any good for filling the seats. An Aztruck would do it - mine did an honest 170kt with 6 x adults - but like all light twins, they are all getting old.
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Thanks for the continued input, as i stated the aircrafts use will be part company/part commercial and i wont have any hope in hell of getting a chief pilot approval to operate anything turbine (be it S/E or multi) as the first twin on the AOC. The prospective charters remember are going to be Mildura-Essendon or Mildura-Canberra and the like, with, hopefully 3-5 pax. If the aeroplane costs a bomb to operate then the charter prices will be through the roof and no one wins.
Have been in contact with PA39 and spoken to the owner of the Shrike in question.
Jamair, the budget was initially for a C90 or a PC12 and spending $1M on a partybus wasnt an issue so the 206 is definately being replaced. Something faster and with a better payload and two non turbo piston engines to begin with.
From the numbers I have crunched a Shrike will eat an Aztec in terms of payload / speed, and has the benefit of club seats and a pax door.
There is some awesome gear for sale on controller.com and its a lot cheaper than any new aircraft so "new old" might be the way to go.
Thanks again for the input everyone.
Have been in contact with PA39 and spoken to the owner of the Shrike in question.
Jamair, the budget was initially for a C90 or a PC12 and spending $1M on a partybus wasnt an issue so the 206 is definately being replaced. Something faster and with a better payload and two non turbo piston engines to begin with.
From the numbers I have crunched a Shrike will eat an Aztec in terms of payload / speed, and has the benefit of club seats and a pax door.
There is some awesome gear for sale on controller.com and its a lot cheaper than any new aircraft so "new old" might be the way to go.
Thanks again for the input everyone.
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Buy this -
Piper Aztec C
and with the US$1,400,000 you saved on a new G58, he can just pay you an extra $100K a year for the next 14 years!
Well, I guess that depends how you look at it............ 
Piper Aztec C
and with the US$1,400,000 you saved on a new G58, he can just pay you an extra $100K a year for the next 14 years!
The former charter operator in Mildura operated a deathstar and a navajo for a long time and they seemed to work out quite well for him
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My advice for the operator/owner would be that the pilot should not be the one choosing the aircraft. You are already limiting the new owner to specific types that you are / will be approved to operate, therefore, the decision to purchase a specific aircraft that suits you could cost the operator / owner dearly!
Perhaps you should consider a Lock & Key Navajo from Mike Jones in the US.
Yes they are expensive, but their reputation in the US seems pretty good.
Mike Jones Aircraft Sales
Yes they are expensive, but their reputation in the US seems pretty good.
Mike Jones Aircraft Sales
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My advice for the operator/owner would be that the pilot should not be the one choosing the aircraft. You are already limiting the new owner to specific types that you are / will be approved to operate, therefore, the decision to purchase a specific aircraft that suits you could cost the operator / owner dearly!
(so thats your preferred option XXX, dont offer any input, - just accept the beancounters decision and tear yourself apart trying to make it work !!?? Lindberg and Kingsford-Smith would have agreed...
)
Perhaps you should consider a Lock & Key Navajo from Mike Jones in the US.
I'm based in the US now and manage a 1980 (or is it '81? Can't remember) 'Lock & Key' Panther Navajo from Mike Jones. I also fly a 1974 Panther Chieftain (not a M.J. one) and a 1979 B200 Kingair.
The MJ Navajo is nice. From MJ it came with:
Cream & blue leather interior. Pretty standard MJ interior. Look at any of his ads & you'll see what you get. Wing lockers, 7 seat club interior incl. potty. Aft partition with power outlet for electric razor, ice & drinks cabinet. VG kit with incr. MTOW.
Avionics:
Garmin 530
Garmin 430
Garmin 330 TXDR
another garmin TXDR (not the 330 mode S type, but can't remember the model. 228?)
Avidyne 500 MFD
Digital fuel flow
Glass HSI (Bendix/King thing. Quite nice)
Colour radar (displayed on the MFD)
Stormscope (displays on both Garmins, the MFD & HSI)
Mode S traffic uplink (also displays on both Garmins, the MFD & HSI)
Known icing
full co-P panel
digital ammeter/voltmeter for L, R & bat buss
O2 to each seat
XM weather (shown on the MFD)
KAP200 AP with YD.
Garmin audio panel
Intercom throughout incl separate pilot & pax audio input. I can listen to music independently from the cabin.
It also came with lighweight, high RPM starters and a scissor link quick disconnect kit. The nosegear disconnect is very handy if your plane gets towed a lot. It eliminates the nose gear towing turn limit. I've lost track of how many PA31s I've seen here with the **** knocked out of the nose gear casting from towing.
We've since added a JPI EDM.
Performance:
Rich of peak: 190-195 kts @ A100, depending on weight. FF 42 GPH (US gal. of course)
LOP: 170 kts @ A100. FF 28-29 GPH. This aircraft's flight manual authorises 50 deg LOP but I wasn't willing without being able to monitor TIT & each cylinde'rs CHT, EGT.
Nices PA31 I've ever flown. It's BEW is heavy for a Navajo though: 4750 lb vs 4550 lb for another one of similar age I used to fly.
The Chieftain is is also a Panther but not an MJ one. Not anywhere near as nice. Also an older airframe so suffers the lower gear speed limits & max 25 deg flap. It has a VG kit too so increased MTOW. Chieftains also get an extra 50lbs in the nose locker.
Typical 'quick upgrade' avionics: Slap in a Garmin 430 & TXDR. Still has a standard '6 pack'. Not even a HSI. Interior not too flash (1974 ugly) but serviceable. Bought quite cheaply though so a planned upgrade throughout will still be cheaper than one from Mike Jones.
Performance: 170 kts @ 42-44 USG ROP.
Overall: The MJ 'lock & key' aircraft are really nice but you pay through the nose. You really are paying for a nothing else you *need* to do aircraft. Recent ones include an EDM so even that upgrade isn't needed.
The Navajo - with VG kit - has a great useful load. It's not a short field aircraft though. For that you need an Aztec or even an Islander for really short strips.
If you go for a PA31 make sure you get one *with* the wing lockers. Not all of them had them (they were a factory option). You'll lose a few knots cruise speed and not get quite as much extra MTOW with VGs but the versatility is worth every bit. Especially with golf bags or fishing rods.
Seating is more comfortable in the Chieftain for pax & crew.
Pax: Even if the full 10 seat interior is fitted you can still do club seating. Most times push Row 3 back to R4 to make lots of leg room in club but still have the option to use the R4 by moving R3 forward a bit.
Crew: Navajo's are dreadful for leg room if you're tall. I'm 6' and am cramped in a Navajo. Not so in a Chieftain. I even need to move my seat forward, unlike a Navajo where I can't get it back far enough for comfort.
As rule of thumb the VG kit gives you two extra bums depending on bags & obesity. A Navajo goes from full fuel/4-6 POB to full fuel 6-8 POB. Chieftain goes from full fuel/6 -7 POB to 8-10 POB.
The Kingair 200 is a different class entirely. Operating costs are triple the Chieftain. Its interior is even nicer than the MJ Navajo. Of course performance is rather better. It would want to be for the cost! 120 USG for the 1st hour after take off/90 USG subsequently. Never mind the insurance and recurrency costs.
Still, it's nice to be doing 260-270kts at FL250 in pressurised comfort above most of the weather with upgraded avionics.
The MJ Navajo is nice. From MJ it came with:
Cream & blue leather interior. Pretty standard MJ interior. Look at any of his ads & you'll see what you get. Wing lockers, 7 seat club interior incl. potty. Aft partition with power outlet for electric razor, ice & drinks cabinet. VG kit with incr. MTOW.
Avionics:
Garmin 530
Garmin 430
Garmin 330 TXDR
another garmin TXDR (not the 330 mode S type, but can't remember the model. 228?)
Avidyne 500 MFD
Digital fuel flow
Glass HSI (Bendix/King thing. Quite nice)
Colour radar (displayed on the MFD)
Stormscope (displays on both Garmins, the MFD & HSI)
Mode S traffic uplink (also displays on both Garmins, the MFD & HSI)
Known icing
full co-P panel
digital ammeter/voltmeter for L, R & bat buss
O2 to each seat
XM weather (shown on the MFD)
KAP200 AP with YD.
Garmin audio panel
Intercom throughout incl separate pilot & pax audio input. I can listen to music independently from the cabin.
It also came with lighweight, high RPM starters and a scissor link quick disconnect kit. The nosegear disconnect is very handy if your plane gets towed a lot. It eliminates the nose gear towing turn limit. I've lost track of how many PA31s I've seen here with the **** knocked out of the nose gear casting from towing.
We've since added a JPI EDM.
Performance:
Rich of peak: 190-195 kts @ A100, depending on weight. FF 42 GPH (US gal. of course)
LOP: 170 kts @ A100. FF 28-29 GPH. This aircraft's flight manual authorises 50 deg LOP but I wasn't willing without being able to monitor TIT & each cylinde'rs CHT, EGT.
Nices PA31 I've ever flown. It's BEW is heavy for a Navajo though: 4750 lb vs 4550 lb for another one of similar age I used to fly.
The Chieftain is is also a Panther but not an MJ one. Not anywhere near as nice. Also an older airframe so suffers the lower gear speed limits & max 25 deg flap. It has a VG kit too so increased MTOW. Chieftains also get an extra 50lbs in the nose locker.
Typical 'quick upgrade' avionics: Slap in a Garmin 430 & TXDR. Still has a standard '6 pack'. Not even a HSI. Interior not too flash (1974 ugly) but serviceable. Bought quite cheaply though so a planned upgrade throughout will still be cheaper than one from Mike Jones.
Performance: 170 kts @ 42-44 USG ROP.
Overall: The MJ 'lock & key' aircraft are really nice but you pay through the nose. You really are paying for a nothing else you *need* to do aircraft. Recent ones include an EDM so even that upgrade isn't needed.
The Navajo - with VG kit - has a great useful load. It's not a short field aircraft though. For that you need an Aztec or even an Islander for really short strips.
If you go for a PA31 make sure you get one *with* the wing lockers. Not all of them had them (they were a factory option). You'll lose a few knots cruise speed and not get quite as much extra MTOW with VGs but the versatility is worth every bit. Especially with golf bags or fishing rods.
Seating is more comfortable in the Chieftain for pax & crew.
Pax: Even if the full 10 seat interior is fitted you can still do club seating. Most times push Row 3 back to R4 to make lots of leg room in club but still have the option to use the R4 by moving R3 forward a bit.
Crew: Navajo's are dreadful for leg room if you're tall. I'm 6' and am cramped in a Navajo. Not so in a Chieftain. I even need to move my seat forward, unlike a Navajo where I can't get it back far enough for comfort.
As rule of thumb the VG kit gives you two extra bums depending on bags & obesity. A Navajo goes from full fuel/4-6 POB to full fuel 6-8 POB. Chieftain goes from full fuel/6 -7 POB to 8-10 POB.
The Kingair 200 is a different class entirely. Operating costs are triple the Chieftain. Its interior is even nicer than the MJ Navajo. Of course performance is rather better. It would want to be for the cost! 120 USG for the 1st hour after take off/90 USG subsequently. Never mind the insurance and recurrency costs.
Still, it's nice to be doing 260-270kts at FL250 in pressurised comfort above most of the weather with upgraded avionics.
WMKII is onto it. 
Get a used PC12 will do everything you're after and then some and costs less to run than a PA31 as long as you're doing the hours to justify the purchase price.
Get a used PC12 will do everything you're after and then some and costs less to run than a PA31 as long as you're doing the hours to justify the purchase price.
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For many years our Navajos and chieftains cruised at 180 knots, and the P68 cruised at 155 kts.
The P68 is much like a twin engine C206. It will fly from alice springs to Adeelaide (720 nm) at night with a light load, and 200nm with 6 POB.
It is a better short field aircraft than the 206.
Check Australian maintenance requirements before buying a modified aircraft. CASA have some strange ideas about maintenance, even with unmodifird aircraft, and modified ones can be unknown territory. Things like wing spar life may be affected by modifications in Australia. (VG's etc)
Refurbished aircraft may be ok, as long as there are no mods.
The P68 is much like a twin engine C206. It will fly from alice springs to Adeelaide (720 nm) at night with a light load, and 200nm with 6 POB.
It is a better short field aircraft than the 206.
Check Australian maintenance requirements before buying a modified aircraft. CASA have some strange ideas about maintenance, even with unmodifird aircraft, and modified ones can be unknown territory. Things like wing spar life may be affected by modifications in Australia. (VG's etc)
Refurbished aircraft may be ok, as long as there are no mods.
Piper PA-31/310 good all-round performer, still a few low time models around that would fit the bill.
Shrike 500 is a lovely aeroplane to fly but has stuff all passenger appeal and is pretty cramped cabin.
C90 Kingair is a good performer, nice big cabin which gives that big aeroplane feel for the boss or charter clients.
B200 Kingair has to be the star of the class, but has the boss got a good heart for the retail prices of the spares?
B350 Kingair great aerplane but you start to get into the joy of operating something above 12500lbs.
Forget about Senecas, Aztecs, Barons all lots of limitations and not really genuine six seaters.
Shrike 500 is a lovely aeroplane to fly but has stuff all passenger appeal and is pretty cramped cabin.
C90 Kingair is a good performer, nice big cabin which gives that big aeroplane feel for the boss or charter clients.
B200 Kingair has to be the star of the class, but has the boss got a good heart for the retail prices of the spares?
B350 Kingair great aerplane but you start to get into the joy of operating something above 12500lbs.
Forget about Senecas, Aztecs, Barons all lots of limitations and not really genuine six seaters.
Every suggestion or idea I have for twins is not printable on PPRuNe and rejected outright by my wife 
....and that's just the aeroplane twins, to say nothing about the Swedish, Norwegian or Danish twins I have ideas about
and rejected outright by my wife ....and that's just the aeroplane twins, to say nothing about the Swedish, Norwegian or Danish twins I have ideas about
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Originally Posted by bushy
It is a better short field aircraft than the 206...
You are comparing the show-pony P68 with the Clydesdale 206. No way will the P68 come out on top when there's work to be done -otherwise, PNG & similar spots would've been full of them!!!