feeder fix time/ required time of arrival (RTA)
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Oakape -300 kts was what domestic jets used to fly, these days its mostly 280 kts. As a rule of thumb if you haven't been issued a time over a fix or a specific speed, it doesn't matter. We wouldn't base separation or sequencing on what we think is your descent speed, well not twice anyway! If you want to be sure there is no reason you can't tell us what your profile speed is when you are assigned descent.
Last edited by Nautilus Blue; 14th Nov 2010 at 08:31.
Oakape, in days gone past the domestics flew agreed speeds - 737 at 300kts & A320 at 320kts for instance. Now they just fly the econo descent as well, although generally it's at the upper end (at least it is when I ask). Tiger is the exception as they seem to use 320kts.
We expect International heavies to be slow so plan for it - I generally allow you guys at least an extra minute or two over a domestic when on descent as you tend to descend earlier & are slower inside 30 miles. Occasionally we get surprised and someone is doing 320kts.
Your actual speed only really matters when you're in trail with another aircraft & then we'll ask or give you a speed if needed. We'll increase you if it looks like you'll be later than expected at the fix, although that only works so much (too late & we drop you a spot in the sequence instead) - being late and a heavy is a bad combination on final for the following traffic.
In summary we expect profile, whatever that is on the day. So keep doing what you're doing & we'll adjust you as necessary.
We expect International heavies to be slow so plan for it - I generally allow you guys at least an extra minute or two over a domestic when on descent as you tend to descend earlier & are slower inside 30 miles. Occasionally we get surprised and someone is doing 320kts.
Your actual speed only really matters when you're in trail with another aircraft & then we'll ask or give you a speed if needed. We'll increase you if it looks like you'll be later than expected at the fix, although that only works so much (too late & we drop you a spot in the sequence instead) - being late and a heavy is a bad combination on final for the following traffic.
In summary we expect profile, whatever that is on the day. So keep doing what you're doing & we'll adjust you as necessary.
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Going back even further the B727's would do .85/350Kts to 20Nm or the DC9's .82/320Kts to 15Nm. Forget about passenger comfort.
Standard descent speed was .8/300Kts.
Anything below 280Kts would bring strong condemnation.
Standard descent speed was .8/300Kts.
Anything below 280Kts would bring strong condemnation.
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You need to get out a little more Joe! Out of your cockpit, into a TMA and watch what goes on. And not at a bull**** time of the day (unfortunately you'll only get in there when it's nice and quiet, PR have control of these now . You need to get in there when it's busy.
le Pingouin, Nautilus Blue, Max 1, thanks for the replies - some very good points there.
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Thanks for the information Nautilus Blue & le Pingouin. Unless advised otherwise, I guess I'll just stick with econ then & keep the company happy.
Well I for one would be interested! I imagine that it would be very informative & a bit of a training tool to boot.
Would there be any value in getting a video capture of an interesting sequence, adding a 'commentary' by the controllers involved and putting on the web?
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Can one of you guys tell me what descent speed above 10,000' you expect from RPT jets? A few years ago it was 300kts, but I have been told recently that it is now 280kts.
I would expect you to be flying an "econ speed" descent unless I told you a specific speed. What "your econ" speed is is up to your FMS... It would be nice if pilots told us before tipping the nose over what speed they were planning, particularly if it's slower than 280K; sharing is caring... Mid 260's were seen a lot when econ speeds became fashionable and it did catch us out a bit. The cost index used by some is significantly different to others for many reasons, thus lots of different econ speeds even with same type same company...
As mentioned if you are on a FF time it matters not anyway in reality; if you are number 1 I'll be asking you what your speed is anyway due to the traffic following etc.
As for the original FF accuracy Q, I'd expect +/- 1 Minute. If you are early I might give you a speed and tell you to cancel the time, similarly if you are late.
The one that used to bug me was getting out of the holding pattern on time, often not much accuracy there... It annoyed me more if someone was 2 or 3 minutes late and didn't appreciate being told to speed up... 2 or 3 mins is a full slot, step on it pal... similarly coming out early and hot (above 250K) and being annoyed at being vectored to fit behind... Or coming out on time and being vectored or 'new speeded' because the one ahead stuffed it up; don't get cross with me...
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Chief galah
Highly Amusing.
le Pingouin
Is it possible though to get the hand over slightly earlier? Its the finger speed that is the trouble as the support pilot that can let flying pilot down in this situation in the haste to change frequency and then get a word in.
Great thread, my awareness at work has been a lot higher. I've been listening out for the internationals that give you grief and had a little bit of a chuckle at the tone of a Sydney controller dealing that exact situation.
On another note another one that disturbs me a little (read: a lot) is controllers blurting out instructions while were still doing anywhere between 100 - 50 knots whilst exiting on a rapid. The support pilot here is monitoring the roll out and in my type, the machine at this point is still a handful (read high workload) if something goes wrong the 186 POB would rather the support pilot isn't on the radio reading back something thats not absolutely vital. I guess were trained to expect anything - subtle incapacitation a tyre coming off anything.
Just my take. Regardless, myself and the majority of my colleagues respect you work and appreciate your efforts.
Look like the complete opposite to another thread running in the Airline forum!
Anything below 280Kts would bring strong condemnation.
le Pingouin
having to maintain when on a high speed descent.
Great thread, my awareness at work has been a lot higher. I've been listening out for the internationals that give you grief and had a little bit of a chuckle at the tone of a Sydney controller dealing that exact situation.
On another note another one that disturbs me a little (read: a lot) is controllers blurting out instructions while were still doing anywhere between 100 - 50 knots whilst exiting on a rapid. The support pilot here is monitoring the roll out and in my type, the machine at this point is still a handful (read high workload) if something goes wrong the 186 POB would rather the support pilot isn't on the radio reading back something thats not absolutely vital. I guess were trained to expect anything - subtle incapacitation a tyre coming off anything.
Just my take. Regardless, myself and the majority of my colleagues respect you work and appreciate your efforts.
Look like the complete opposite to another thread running in the Airline forum!
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 17th Nov 2010 at 19:13. Reason: spelling, formatting and others.
I work arrivals into ML & we can't hand you off too early as you'll be off the edge of the screen for TMA - they don't look out much beyond 40 miles. We try to hand-off in a timely manner but sometimes sods law intervenes & everyone is busy at just the wrong time. I aim to initiate the hand-off by 40 miles but if I'm late and TMA is slow to accept you're down to 30 miles fairly quickly. Obviously a problem onto 16 from the north.
Also because you have max and are approaching 30 miles I should have solved any separation & sequencing problems miles back so I've moved my focus on to other tasks. You're all done as far as I'm concerned except for the hand-off. I'll catch you in my scan of the screen but if I have several higher priority tasks to attend to you get to wait.
Any aircraft holding up the sequence is liable to being berated, encouraged to do better or hit with a wet fish. All sotto voce of course, well mostly
I'm not a tower controller but I'd guess some of it is just a lack of knowledge of the "other guys job" (I presume most aircraft would be a handful then too?) & taking the opportunity to fill a silence.
In the end we're all trying to do our jobs as best we can, some times less successfully than others. We're trying to move little green circles around & occasionally our best laid plans come unstuck - sometimes because we judge it wrong & sometimes due to pilot actions. Of course either way you get to wear the consequences as far as being dicked around goes.
Also because you have max and are approaching 30 miles I should have solved any separation & sequencing problems miles back so I've moved my focus on to other tasks. You're all done as far as I'm concerned except for the hand-off. I'll catch you in my scan of the screen but if I have several higher priority tasks to attend to you get to wait.
Any aircraft holding up the sequence is liable to being berated, encouraged to do better or hit with a wet fish. All sotto voce of course, well mostly
I'm not a tower controller but I'd guess some of it is just a lack of knowledge of the "other guys job" (I presume most aircraft would be a handful then too?) & taking the opportunity to fill a silence.
In the end we're all trying to do our jobs as best we can, some times less successfully than others. We're trying to move little green circles around & occasionally our best laid plans come unstuck - sometimes because we judge it wrong & sometimes due to pilot actions. Of course either way you get to wear the consequences as far as being dicked around goes.
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Understood now I have the picture.
Do people bust control steps often? And if so what is usually the outcome? I've noticed different companies I've worked for have different levels of awareness of them from none to a must brief/monitor item.
Not sure about the other machines on the rapid. As you said "other guys job" so I can't say until I've flown em.
Do people bust control steps often? And if so what is usually the outcome? I've noticed different companies I've worked for have different levels of awareness of them from none to a must brief/monitor item.
Not sure about the other machines on the rapid. As you said "other guys job" so I can't say until I've flown em.
We're supposed to keep you in CTA so assign levels accordingly - if you bust a step on descent then you've busted your level too, or I've screwed up. If I do assign a level below the current step it's because you're so far above it that to bust it you'd have bigger troubles than worrying about a CTA step on your mind.
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Do people bust control steps often? And if so what is usually the outcome?
Although it is a pilot's responsibility to manage this aspect of their profile, if I see an aicraft hugging the steps, I would step them down till about 12nm.
IF I suspect or observe it's about to happen, I'd give the pilot a level maintain (and explain why) and/or give traffic if it's too late to catch before punching class G.
I'm curious as to how much of this is FMS related or pilot managed on the more modern types (A330/320, B777, B737 NG)
I occasionally see descent below the CTA step on a visual approach.
I'm curious as to how much of this is FMS related or pilot managed on the more modern types (A330/320, B777, B737 NG)
I know we're living in a fantasy world but agree that maybe the steps need to be altered to contain modern aerodynamically efficient aircraft profiles, instead of those from the 1960s.....
Sorry, but an ultralight does not warrant the same consideration as a high cap RPT full of paying passengers. You can be excluded from a tiny extra portion of airspace to keep the fare paying public safe. The amount of trouble we have to go to to extend CTA steps is just ridiculous.
Sorry, but an ultralight does not warrant the same consideration as a high cap RPT full of paying passengers. You can be excluded from a tiny extra portion of airspace to keep the fare paying public safe. The amount of trouble we have to go to to extend CTA steps is just ridiculous.
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Capn Bloggs
Think I understand some of your concerns, but if the glide slope gradient on an ILS is perfectly achievable for a B777, why is there a need to adopt a more shallow approach on a VSA?
When left unchecked, I've seen A320/330s and the like at 2500' with 15miles to run.
If you weren't to call visual until within my CTR then you'd likely already have been taken out for re-sequencing via an instrument app.
Also, what 'last assignable level' are you referring to? 500' above the CTA step adjacent to the zone, or other lowest safe?
When left unchecked, I've seen A320/330s and the like at 2500' with 15miles to run.
Precisely why I never call "visual" until I'm either in the zone or at the last assignable level before the zone.
Also, what 'last assignable level' are you referring to? 500' above the CTA step adjacent to the zone, or other lowest safe?
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so that Dick and his no-radio mates can swan around at will.
but if the glide slope gradient on an ILS is perfectly achievable for a B777, why is there a need to adopt a more shallow approach on a VSA?
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Think I understand some of your concerns, but if the glide slope gradient on an ILS is perfectly achievable for a B777, why is there a need to adopt a more shallow approach on a VSA?
When left unchecked, I've seen A320/330s and the like at 2500' with 15miles to run.
When left unchecked, I've seen A320/330s and the like at 2500' with 15miles to run.
On a VSA we may, all things being equal, decide to configure later which may have an affect on gradient.
There are usually more track miles associated with an instrument approach, track miles = altitude. Also when you program an instrument approach into the FMS it places the altitude limitations in as well, often making you higher than for a VSA. E.g. If there is a limit of 3000 ft at the IAF for an ILS, the FMS will calculate the descent to arrive at the IAF at 3000 at the appropriate speed.
5 Miles,
From what I hear, the problem is not on the ILS but further back where energy needs to be dissipated. Heavies often get held up on our "9000ft until 36nm" step.
Would I be right in saying that you are either at a non-radar tower or not in Australia?
if the glide slope gradient on an ILS is perfectly achievable for a B777
If you weren't to call visual until within my CTR then you'd likely already have been taken out for re-sequencing via an instrument app.
Hi Cap'n.
I work @ the nations capital after years on BN approach and flow[outing myself here].
We usually have the Dash crews calling visual at 30 miles and half the jets not calling visual until on base.
This is a hassle as I am actually sitting in ML centre and only getting updates on the weather from my capable colleagues in CB tower.
I'm sweating on you getting visual as #1
I ask them about the cloud and they tell me that they can see you but you still haven't called visual.
There are terrain, noise abatement and GPWS issues so I can't drop you below 6000' unless you are visual.
Meanwhile number 2 is coming in on left base and I don't know whether I am going to have to pull you out for an instrument approach.
Theoretically it is a pilot responsibility to stay above the steps on a visual approach.
In reality, if there is likely to be traffic below you won't get assigned a level below the step.
Think R14 at BN with RED cct beneath or almost anywhere around ML.
Please tell me when you are visual.
Even if I assign you a visual approach I will be watching to make sure you stay in CTA.
One of our major customers told us in writing a couple of years ago that if they were early on their schedule they would fly econ, if they were on time they would fly profile and if they were late they would fly fast.
WTF???
We don't know where you are reference your company schedule so have no idea what speeds you are doing unless we ask.
Years of flowing has me distrusting 'busses.
The A320 FMS seems to ignore the higher descent speeds.
Untold times bus crews have advised that they can't make a FF time[think they will be later] only to have them sail through the ff early.
I'm not flaming here.
I just think there is a limitation with the FMS and we take it into account.
Likewise the bigger busses seem to be a pita if we stuff you around inside 20nm to run. your workload goes through the roof so we try to fix the sequence earlier.
A sequence is an attempt to make a stream of aircraft to the runway.
With 5-20 different aircraft types in the mix flying different profiles even in the same company it is usually 'organised mayhem'
Usually it needs tweaking by the approach controllers even when the arrivals controllers do a great job.
Not once in 30 years have I stuffed someone around for fun and I understand that you are busy too.
When there is a 5 way dead heat then someone is going to be delayed by at least 10 minutes.
I'm sure you folks would prefer to lose time in the cruise rather than be stuffed around in the terminal area.
Unfortunately, efficient runway usage at the major airports with sequences that go for an hour or more mean that we flow you with pressure[early] to 30 miles then have to tweak this inside 30.
Hope this helps, I'm back to the cricket.
AA
I'm back to the cricket
I work @ the nations capital after years on BN approach and flow[outing myself here].
We usually have the Dash crews calling visual at 30 miles and half the jets not calling visual until on base.
This is a hassle as I am actually sitting in ML centre and only getting updates on the weather from my capable colleagues in CB tower.
I'm sweating on you getting visual as #1
I ask them about the cloud and they tell me that they can see you but you still haven't called visual.
There are terrain, noise abatement and GPWS issues so I can't drop you below 6000' unless you are visual.
Meanwhile number 2 is coming in on left base and I don't know whether I am going to have to pull you out for an instrument approach.
Theoretically it is a pilot responsibility to stay above the steps on a visual approach.
In reality, if there is likely to be traffic below you won't get assigned a level below the step.
Think R14 at BN with RED cct beneath or almost anywhere around ML.
Please tell me when you are visual.
Even if I assign you a visual approach I will be watching to make sure you stay in CTA.
One of our major customers told us in writing a couple of years ago that if they were early on their schedule they would fly econ, if they were on time they would fly profile and if they were late they would fly fast.
WTF???
We don't know where you are reference your company schedule so have no idea what speeds you are doing unless we ask.
Years of flowing has me distrusting 'busses.
The A320 FMS seems to ignore the higher descent speeds.
Untold times bus crews have advised that they can't make a FF time[think they will be later] only to have them sail through the ff early.
I'm not flaming here.
I just think there is a limitation with the FMS and we take it into account.
Likewise the bigger busses seem to be a pita if we stuff you around inside 20nm to run. your workload goes through the roof so we try to fix the sequence earlier.
A sequence is an attempt to make a stream of aircraft to the runway.
With 5-20 different aircraft types in the mix flying different profiles even in the same company it is usually 'organised mayhem'
Usually it needs tweaking by the approach controllers even when the arrivals controllers do a great job.
Not once in 30 years have I stuffed someone around for fun and I understand that you are busy too.
When there is a 5 way dead heat then someone is going to be delayed by at least 10 minutes.
I'm sure you folks would prefer to lose time in the cruise rather than be stuffed around in the terminal area.
Unfortunately, efficient runway usage at the major airports with sequences that go for an hour or more mean that we flow you with pressure[early] to 30 miles then have to tweak this inside 30.
Hope this helps, I'm back to the cricket.
AA
I'm back to the cricket