Slight OT. Why do we keep ******* it up.
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Slight OT. Why do we keep ******* it up.
$8bn navy flagship founders. From The Australian
THE failure to correctly build the central keel block on Australia's first air warfare destroyer in Melbourne is a dismal start to the nation's largest defence project.
It is also a wake-up call to the defence industry here.
If local naval shipbuilders have trouble constructing three AWDs, based on a tested Spanish design, what hope will they have of carrying out the government's plan to build 12 new submarines here virtually from scratch?
This setback in the $8 billion AWD project is a serious one, but it also provides an opportunity for early lessons to be learned before the warships start to take shape.
Australian navy shipbuilders are out of practice. Much expertise has been lost since the ANZAC frigates and the Collins-class submarines were built in the 1990s.
Defence is trying to work out who is to blame for the faulty keel block and who should be held accountable.
Is it the Melbourne sub-contractor, the ship's designer Navantia or the Adelaide-based AWD project managers? Whichever way, the problem proves the need for much more rigour in applying best-practice standards in our shipyards because the country can't afford a rerun of the problems that haunted the building of the Collins-class submarines.
Lets just buy one off the shelf shall we.
THE failure to correctly build the central keel block on Australia's first air warfare destroyer in Melbourne is a dismal start to the nation's largest defence project.
It is also a wake-up call to the defence industry here.
If local naval shipbuilders have trouble constructing three AWDs, based on a tested Spanish design, what hope will they have of carrying out the government's plan to build 12 new submarines here virtually from scratch?
This setback in the $8 billion AWD project is a serious one, but it also provides an opportunity for early lessons to be learned before the warships start to take shape.
Australian navy shipbuilders are out of practice. Much expertise has been lost since the ANZAC frigates and the Collins-class submarines were built in the 1990s.
Defence is trying to work out who is to blame for the faulty keel block and who should be held accountable.
Is it the Melbourne sub-contractor, the ship's designer Navantia or the Adelaide-based AWD project managers? Whichever way, the problem proves the need for much more rigour in applying best-practice standards in our shipyards because the country can't afford a rerun of the problems that haunted the building of the Collins-class submarines.
Lets just buy one off the shelf shall we.
Pretty much the same reason we don't build aeroplanes here any more....
Incompetence - either by Govt in the case of the Victa - (Gawd, he's goin' back a bit...)
or by some 'designers' in the case of the Gomad.....(?)
Then look at our last Navy helo 'project'...How many delivered??
For how much...??
When I was commiting aviation out of BK, we used to think it 'strange' that across the other side, was an aeroplane co. building 'tinnies', and somewhere else, a lawnmower co. building - yep you guessed it.
And nowhere near either, at Pennant Hills I think - was a co building a 'truck' with twin booms.
That seemed to work ok but didn't last either......(?)
Meanwhile.......
Incompetence - either by Govt in the case of the Victa - (Gawd, he's goin' back a bit...)
or by some 'designers' in the case of the Gomad.....(?)
Then look at our last Navy helo 'project'...How many delivered??
For how much...??
When I was commiting aviation out of BK, we used to think it 'strange' that across the other side, was an aeroplane co. building 'tinnies', and somewhere else, a lawnmower co. building - yep you guessed it.
And nowhere near either, at Pennant Hills I think - was a co building a 'truck' with twin booms.
That seemed to work ok but didn't last either......(?)
Meanwhile.......
Australian navy shipbuilders are out of practice. Much expertise has been lost since the ANZAC frigates and the Collins-class submarines were built in the 1990s.
All those years and all those purchases, all with demand for offsets.
And what has happened to all the benefits of those offsets. Seems like Australia's shipbuilding industry is history.
Australia's aircraft manufacturing peaked with the Nomad
The nomad should have just been the start of something big. After all, look where Embraer is today after starting out building Pipers under license.
Damn shame it is.
And what has happened to all the benefits of those offsets. Seems like Australia's shipbuilding industry is history.
Australia's aircraft manufacturing peaked with the Nomad
The nomad should have just been the start of something big. After all, look where Embraer is today after starting out building Pipers under license.
Damn shame it is.
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I happen to know some folk in Cairns with a very strong history of successfully building ships for the Navy (over 30 years) and commercial operators.
When the QLD government would not support their bid against the Victorians handing help on a platter, they ....well laid off the bulk of their workforce for the very last time.
I am sure you can work the rest out.
When the QLD government would not support their bid against the Victorians handing help on a platter, they ....well laid off the bulk of their workforce for the very last time.
I am sure you can work the rest out.
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NQEA indeed.
I am far too close to comment publically too much, other than to say the Fry's did what most employers would never do, over decades, and that is keep pouring in Millions to keep people on the payroll when the downturns happened over those decades. When you read the crap the Qld Tresurer spouted in the papers it makes your blood boil knowing the truth.
They really make me quite
.
I am far too close to comment publically too much, other than to say the Fry's did what most employers would never do, over decades, and that is keep pouring in Millions to keep people on the payroll when the downturns happened over those decades. When you read the crap the Qld Tresurer spouted in the papers it makes your blood boil knowing the truth.
They really make me quite
.
We never learn here in Aust, we always have to try and reinvent the wheel and think we can do better than the original manufacturers.
Every military aircraft program built here since WW 2 provides short term employment to a relatively small number of specialist workers who build a very small number of aircraft and then end up being lost to the industry as the work is finished and there are no follow up programs for decades afterward.
All at a cost of 20-30% added to the total program cost which would have been better spent buying additional platforms from the overseas manufacturer.
The reason the Super Hornets and C-17s were under budget and on time was because they were made on established assembly line with experienced workers and were not modified in anyway.
We better do the same with JSF, let the Americans build them and we can maintain them, far more efficient and cost effective.
Why is that so bloody hard for politicians and DoD to understand.
As for our submarines, people need to realize that building an advanced, original design is the equivalent of designing and building an advanced stealth aircraft such as the B-2 from scratch.
Far more complex a task than any surface ship.
DoDs fantasy 12 sub Collins replacement is exactly that, a fantasy and will remain so unless they realize that any vehicle/weapon system is totally useless without someone to operate it.
We have 6 Collins and can barely crew 2 maybe 3 boats at a time. Hardly a value for money deterrent at over 1 Billion plus /boat and barely 2 operational at any one time.
Again, Aust would be far better off buying an existing design class of nuclear attack boat as a true strategic deterrent but that wont happen for cost and political reasons alone and there are no large suitable diesel/electric designs available so we will waste billions designing a new Diesel boat from scratch.
Every military aircraft program built here since WW 2 provides short term employment to a relatively small number of specialist workers who build a very small number of aircraft and then end up being lost to the industry as the work is finished and there are no follow up programs for decades afterward.
All at a cost of 20-30% added to the total program cost which would have been better spent buying additional platforms from the overseas manufacturer.
The reason the Super Hornets and C-17s were under budget and on time was because they were made on established assembly line with experienced workers and were not modified in anyway.
We better do the same with JSF, let the Americans build them and we can maintain them, far more efficient and cost effective.
Why is that so bloody hard for politicians and DoD to understand.
As for our submarines, people need to realize that building an advanced, original design is the equivalent of designing and building an advanced stealth aircraft such as the B-2 from scratch.
Far more complex a task than any surface ship.
DoDs fantasy 12 sub Collins replacement is exactly that, a fantasy and will remain so unless they realize that any vehicle/weapon system is totally useless without someone to operate it.
We have 6 Collins and can barely crew 2 maybe 3 boats at a time. Hardly a value for money deterrent at over 1 Billion plus /boat and barely 2 operational at any one time.
Again, Aust would be far better off buying an existing design class of nuclear attack boat as a true strategic deterrent but that wont happen for cost and political reasons alone and there are no large suitable diesel/electric designs available so we will waste billions designing a new Diesel boat from scratch.
Yes, we can build anything we need, and do it right, if only good managers are employed in both public and private sectors.
If you want examples, the construction of the Oliver Hazard Perry class destroyers at Williamstown dockyards went swimmingly and produced a better finished product than the American original. The Anzac frigate program went reasonably well as far as I can tell.
The problem is that managers with no technical background, let alone never having been on the shop floor themselves, consistently deprecate experience, even to the point of suppressing it by firing workers who know more than they do. I've seen it done regularly. I was even once tempted to do it myself as a manager when I got tired of the "Listen Sonny, that's not the way it's done" remarks.
My guess would be that the foreman, welders and low level planners and clerks who built the Anzac class frigates were "let go' years ago. Consequently, we are way back up the learning curve, and experience must be painfully and expensively reacquired.
On a technical note, building something like this is not just a matter of cutting out plate and welding it together, there is a huge problem in regard to distortion of welded structures which has to be managed by how you support the structure during construction, how you pre-stress various bits and in what order you build and weld. That requires great experience and it doesn't come in text books either.
So to all the new staff at BAe, all I can say is "welcome to the shipbuilding industry'. I just hope you aren't saddled with any English Oxbridge educated managers, they really know how to fcuk things up.
..As for new submarines. Assuming that we haven't "let go" the folk that built the Collins class, I believe that they would produce a better product this time,if allowed to by their managers.
P.S. "Buying off the shelf" has the benefit of nice overseas postings for Officers, complete with nice allowances, etc.
If you want examples, the construction of the Oliver Hazard Perry class destroyers at Williamstown dockyards went swimmingly and produced a better finished product than the American original. The Anzac frigate program went reasonably well as far as I can tell.
The problem is that managers with no technical background, let alone never having been on the shop floor themselves, consistently deprecate experience, even to the point of suppressing it by firing workers who know more than they do. I've seen it done regularly. I was even once tempted to do it myself as a manager when I got tired of the "Listen Sonny, that's not the way it's done" remarks.
My guess would be that the foreman, welders and low level planners and clerks who built the Anzac class frigates were "let go' years ago. Consequently, we are way back up the learning curve, and experience must be painfully and expensively reacquired.
On a technical note, building something like this is not just a matter of cutting out plate and welding it together, there is a huge problem in regard to distortion of welded structures which has to be managed by how you support the structure during construction, how you pre-stress various bits and in what order you build and weld. That requires great experience and it doesn't come in text books either.
So to all the new staff at BAe, all I can say is "welcome to the shipbuilding industry'. I just hope you aren't saddled with any English Oxbridge educated managers, they really know how to fcuk things up.
..As for new submarines. Assuming that we haven't "let go" the folk that built the Collins class, I believe that they would produce a better product this time,if allowed to by their managers.
P.S. "Buying off the shelf" has the benefit of nice overseas postings for Officers, complete with nice allowances, etc.
The reason that Australia can't deliver competitively on an industrial scale is because the majority of industry is geared towards supplying government contracts. We all know how fussy the government isn't in demanding value for money.
We are a nation of welfare recipients, paid for by the red dirt dug out of a big hole in the middle of nowhere.
(there are exceptions, I'll admit but they're there to prove the rule)
A
We are a nation of welfare recipients, paid for by the red dirt dug out of a big hole in the middle of nowhere.
(there are exceptions, I'll admit but they're there to prove the rule)
A
Last edited by Andy_RR; 28th Oct 2010 at 00:32.
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Job For The TSV Refueller
Aircraft, submarines, fighter jets and tanks - they all require some sort of fuel or energy source, so there is only one man to comment about this thread - The Townsville Refueller ! Where is he ? What does he think ?
Please do enlighten us you fuel guru.
Please do enlighten us you fuel guru.