Inaccurate logbook entries
Moderator
If you read the spotted dog's first post above, the second sentence (and second paragraph) states:
You can split hairs in calculating taxi time etc but it is only pointless thread drift. 
I suspect - and hope I am very wrong - that the spotted dog was asking ways to fudge a log book and get away with it.
We're not interested in any illegal schemes to fudge Log Books being posted on PPRuNe, but he does raise an interesting question about the reference to CAR283 in CAR5.52. I called my local FOI who mumbled his way through a response by suggesting the reference to CAR283 is now replaced with provisions of the Crimes Act.
My questions are about log book fraud/ false entries/’massaging’ of flight time in Australia.
I suspect - and hope I am very wrong - that the spotted dog was asking ways to fudge a log book and get away with it.
We're not interested in any illegal schemes to fudge Log Books being posted on PPRuNe, but he does raise an interesting question about the reference to CAR283 in CAR5.52. I called my local FOI who mumbled his way through a response by suggesting the reference to CAR283 is now replaced with provisions of the Crimes Act.
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Well there are probably plenty of ways to dodgy your log books.....and still not ever be proven otherwise. But who really has such a desperate need to do so?
Do the right thing, and you cant go too far wrong!
J
Do the right thing, and you cant go too far wrong!
J
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bickering over taxi times may be splitting hairs but it is, as has already been said, an easily defendable way to inflate.
Here here.
Do the right thing, and you cant go too far wrong!
Easiest method I ever used back before I joined the airlines was SUDS (Start Up Down Stop).
Up and Down went into the aircraft tech log. Start and Stop went into my logbook.
Up and Down went into the aircraft tech log. Start and Stop went into my logbook.
HP
Folks,
Our esteemed moderator, Tailwheel, has spelled it out quite clearly: This is one of the few areas that are quite clear in the regulations.
Both pilot and aircraft log books are a happy hunting ground for CASA investigators, and the charge is criminal fraud per the Commonwealth Crimes Act.
Comes in very handy when CASA/DPP want to beef up a case that is a bit thin, nothing like a "substantial" list of alleged offenses to impress the Judge that you are a serial offender and a serious threat to aviation safety, and not just somebody who has made an isolated mistake.
Believe me: My CFI/LAME/good mate/boss/rabbito/I'm given to believe/Friday night aero club legal x-spert/ etc / told me "rules of thumb" (or alternative body parts) has no standing when it come to the "interpretation" of block time and air time.
Tootle pip!!
PS: Something different to the Act/CARs/CASRs/CAOs in a log book, or in an Operation Manual, unless based on a Legislative Instrument, has no standing ---- CASA do not "approve" Operations Manuals, they "accept" same, an important difference.
Our esteemed moderator, Tailwheel, has spelled it out quite clearly: This is one of the few areas that are quite clear in the regulations.
Both pilot and aircraft log books are a happy hunting ground for CASA investigators, and the charge is criminal fraud per the Commonwealth Crimes Act.
Comes in very handy when CASA/DPP want to beef up a case that is a bit thin, nothing like a "substantial" list of alleged offenses to impress the Judge that you are a serial offender and a serious threat to aviation safety, and not just somebody who has made an isolated mistake.
Believe me: My CFI/LAME/good mate/boss/rabbito/I'm given to believe/Friday night aero club legal x-spert/ etc / told me "rules of thumb" (or alternative body parts) has no standing when it come to the "interpretation" of block time and air time.
Tootle pip!!
PS: Something different to the Act/CARs/CASRs/CAOs in a log book, or in an Operation Manual, unless based on a Legislative Instrument, has no standing ---- CASA do not "approve" Operations Manuals, they "accept" same, an important difference.
Yeah, it's been answered well and truly!! Can't believe I'm wasting time writing here... 
All those with "rules of thumb" etc, repeat after me:
"Rules of thumb for logging of flight time are for JOKERS - people who can't be bothered looking at a timepiece twice in a flight, or doing sh!t properly in general..."
Got it? It is about the easiest part of your job!!
So why am I wasting time writing this post? Someone mentioned Ops manuals, and I was reminded of a previous job where a total peanut CP (we've all had 'em!) insisted that I use his rule of thumb for logging flight time 
I said "ping off" and he started crapping on about getting it inserted into the Ops Manual if neccessary! Ha ha good times
CR.
All those with "rules of thumb" etc, repeat after me:
"Rules of thumb for logging of flight time are for JOKERS - people who can't be bothered looking at a timepiece twice in a flight, or doing sh!t properly in general..."
Got it? It is about the easiest part of your job!!
So why am I wasting time writing this post? Someone mentioned Ops manuals, and I was reminded of a previous job where a total peanut CP (we've all had 'em!
) insisted that I use his rule of thumb for logging flight time I said "ping off" and he started crapping on about getting it inserted into the Ops Manual if neccessary! Ha ha good times
CR.
Moderator
LeadSled's post reminds me - if CASA get bloody-minded, each occurrence your Log Book does not reflect the actual recordable flight time as per the CAO is a separate offense.
Is it worth risking fifty or more criminal charges for fraudulent Log Book entries, each 0.1 hour?
A reliable time piece is less than one hundred bucks. Isn't your flying career worth that small investment?
I recall one of the charges initiated by CASA against an AOC holder was a 3 hour overrun on a 100 hourly inspection, due entirely to a self confessed innocent pilot error in addition on the MR. And CASA discovered the error some 300 airframe hours (and 3 hundred hourly inspections) later.
It does not matter what your Ops Manual states. Where an Ops Manual states or implies anything contrary to the Act, Regulations or Orders, the Act, Regulations or Orders prevails.
The law is ..... well, the law! Knowingly or unknowingly vary it at your peril.
The same questions about Log Book entries comes up time and time again on PPRuNe, every year for the past 12 or 13 years to my knowledge.
Log Book Forgery
Time entries for a logbook when there is no VDO
Fake instrument flight time logged
And those three are only in 2010.
I think the subject has more than been done to death?
Is it worth risking fifty or more criminal charges for fraudulent Log Book entries, each 0.1 hour?
A reliable time piece is less than one hundred bucks. Isn't your flying career worth that small investment?
I recall one of the charges initiated by CASA against an AOC holder was a 3 hour overrun on a 100 hourly inspection, due entirely to a self confessed innocent pilot error in addition on the MR. And CASA discovered the error some 300 airframe hours (and 3 hundred hourly inspections) later.
It does not matter what your Ops Manual states. Where an Ops Manual states or implies anything contrary to the Act, Regulations or Orders, the Act, Regulations or Orders prevails.
The law is ..... well, the law! Knowingly or unknowingly vary it at your peril.
The same questions about Log Book entries comes up time and time again on PPRuNe, every year for the past 12 or 13 years to my knowledge.
Log Book Forgery
Time entries for a logbook when there is no VDO
Fake instrument flight time logged
And those three are only in 2010.
I think the subject has more than been done to death?
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I remember the case of the Virgin Blue captain after flying Brisbane to Melbourne gin clear weather all the way and on autopilot too. After shut down he says to the F/O who is writing up the times sheet "Put me down for an hour I/F will you?'
How's that for integrity....
How's that for integrity....
Some genius please tell me which part of the CAO is being broken by adding an average figure, when appropriate, to the accurate air time figure from the GPS to calculate the flight time?
You're saying all the pilots that follow the ops manual at my operator are jokers?
There is more than one way to skin a cat and there are more ways than just counting the minutes and converting that into a decimal figure to satisfy the CAOs.
Leadie, yeah, ok. Are suggesting that the ops manual would be accepted even if CASA did not consider the method an acceptable means of complying with the rules? Its a pretty major turboprop operator I'm talking about here.
"Rules of thumb for logging of flight time are for JOKERS - people who can't be bothered looking at a timepiece twice in a flight, or doing sh!t properly in general..."
There is more than one way to skin a cat and there are more ways than just counting the minutes and converting that into a decimal figure to satisfy the CAOs.
Leadie, yeah, ok. Are suggesting that the ops manual would be accepted even if CASA did not consider the method an acceptable means of complying with the rules? Its a pretty major turboprop operator I'm talking about here.
How frikkin' hard can it be to note the time when you release and set the brakes at the beginning and end of the flight.
Oh wait, I get it. the new generation of pilots is unable to subtract 10:58 from 12:37, is that it?
Oh wait, I get it. the new generation of pilots is unable to subtract 10:58 from 12:37, is that it?
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Not necessarily, Peter...
I was all for using clock time for logging my MR and Log times, but in my current company this is frowned upon - apparently last time CASA came for an audit they were astounded some people were taking 0.3 to taxi. So the FOI suggested we use MR time + 0.1 for each landing.
Great consistency with the letter of the law there...
I was all for using clock time for logging my MR and Log times, but in my current company this is frowned upon - apparently last time CASA came for an audit they were astounded some people were taking 0.3 to taxi. So the FOI suggested we use MR time + 0.1 for each landing.
Great consistency with the letter of the law there...
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It's written in our ops manual +0.1 Vfr and +0.2 ifr. Ops manual is Casa approved and is a direct relationship with Our actual ops so good enough for me. Even then 0.1 is freakin quick even if you take off from a taxi way.
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From post #21
Nothing so sinister I assure you. Quite the contrary in fact. Nor was I trying to open a debate about 'rules of thumb'. And as far as I am aware my log book reflects time logged strictly in accordance with the CAOs and CARs and I am happy to have it audited at any time.
My main aim in posting was to get answers to the following questions:
1) If you are made aware that someone is currently, or has in the past been exaggerating flight time in their log book what are your legal obligations?
2) Are there any implications for an organizations Chief Pilot if they are aware that a pilot employed in their organization has inflated flight time in the past? If they continue to do so while employed by the organization as a pilot?
3) What are the insurance implications for the organization if they allow that pilot to use their aircraft, knowing that there may be false or inflated flight time?
4)Would you employ a pilot if you had suspicions about the accuracy of their log book? Does this reflect on their general integrity, would this person be a risk of breaches of professionalism in other aspects of their flying, or is it a common enough occurance to be allowable under some circumstances with careful monitoring?
I'd love to get your opinions on those questions.
Thanks,
Spotted Dog
I suspect - and hope I am very wrong - that the spotted dog was asking ways to fudge a log book and get away with it.
Nothing so sinister I assure you. Quite the contrary in fact. Nor was I trying to open a debate about 'rules of thumb'. And as far as I am aware my log book reflects time logged strictly in accordance with the CAOs and CARs and I am happy to have it audited at any time.
My main aim in posting was to get answers to the following questions:
1) If you are made aware that someone is currently, or has in the past been exaggerating flight time in their log book what are your legal obligations?
2) Are there any implications for an organizations Chief Pilot if they are aware that a pilot employed in their organization has inflated flight time in the past? If they continue to do so while employed by the organization as a pilot?
3) What are the insurance implications for the organization if they allow that pilot to use their aircraft, knowing that there may be false or inflated flight time?
4)Would you employ a pilot if you had suspicions about the accuracy of their log book? Does this reflect on their general integrity, would this person be a risk of breaches of professionalism in other aspects of their flying, or is it a common enough occurance to be allowable under some circumstances with careful monitoring?
I'd love to get your opinions on those questions.
Thanks,
Spotted Dog
glekichi
Ah, yeah fair call mate - that was a bit robust! I was feeling a bit sporty when I wrote it!! (It does however reflect my personal opinion, and we know about opinions, don't we?!)
Can I retract that? And more correctly, redirect it to the knob who wrote it in your Ops Manual?! And the CASA knob who "approved" it?!!!
And it touches on another point, of the "relevance" of Ops Manuals in many instances, I reckon. They should be for guidance on company policy, and "expanding" on compliance issues. Too often they are written by twiddlers who want to put exactly this sort of dribble in 'em. They should never be at odds with published regulations!!
Where Ops Manuals and Regs conflict, guess which one wins? Why do these sorts of statements exist in Ops Manuals? Poor authoring in the first place, and poor vetting during the "approval" process!
Just my opinion
CR
You're saying all the pilots that follow the ops manual at my operator are jokers?
Can I retract that? And more correctly, redirect it to the knob
who wrote it in your Ops Manual?! And the CASA knob who "approved" it?!!!And it touches on another point, of the "relevance" of Ops Manuals in many instances, I reckon. They should be for guidance on company policy, and "expanding" on compliance issues. Too often they are written by twiddlers who want to put exactly this sort of dribble in 'em. They should never be at odds with published regulations!!
Where Ops Manuals and Regs conflict, guess which one wins? Why do these sorts of statements exist in Ops Manuals? Poor authoring in the first place, and poor vetting during the "approval" process!
Just my opinion
CR
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My 2 cents: all these people that are claiming more hours then what they are actually doing. You are cheating yourselves as you are doing this to get into somthing bigger and better i am guessing. Why are you in such a rush???? Enjoy the bug smashers and the your career to the airlines/the top. Personally i enjoy flying and they only let me do 900hrs a year so i am not going to log one second over what i actually am allowed to do otherwise i would be sitting on the ground for a few weeks.
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Log book hours are in my opinion over rated. Why would you really bother fudging hours?? I once conducted an AFR on a bloke with more than 5000 logged hours, only to find he had became lost on a 50nm navex, although he absolutely GREASED them on every landing. When i quizzed him during the debrief he advised me that nearly every one of those hours were logged in a glider tug!! So to me personally hours logged don't mean much, you can tell before the guy (or gal) even fires the thing up whether he can fly an aircraft, just in the way they handle and prepare themselves in the cockpit.
Some genius please tell me which part of the CAO is being broken by adding an average figure, when appropriate, to the accurate air time figure from the GPS to calculate the flight time?
Are you serious???? Or just extracting the Michael????
Read what Tailwheel has said, go back and read the exact legislative references, look it up on the ComLaw web site (the reference source for lawyers and judges, the people who are going to convict you if you don't do what the law says).
And, as I have said time and again, and as an increasing number of pilots and LAMEs have found out the hard way, a criminal charge (for US it doesn't even have to be a conviction) or conviction for any aviation related offence will see you barred from many countries. This can be professionally career limiting, who wants to hire a pilot that can't fly outside Australia, as well as a personal embarrassment.
As has been said, time and again, both "flight time" and "air time" are defined in the Civil Aviation Act 1988 and Civil Aviation Regulations. So, quote Tailwheel as the genius.
Tootle pip!!
PS: As been said, time and again, CASA DO NOT APPROVE Operations Manuals, they "accept" same, and legally there is a world of difference.
Just because there is garbage in the manual for a kero burner makes not the slightest difference, garbage is garbage, and does not amend the law.
That THE LAW is THE LAW seems to be a concept beyond the understanding of far to many who post on pprune.
jus publicum privatorum pactis mutari non potest
public law cannot be changed by the agreements of private individuals
Last edited by LeadSled; 25th Aug 2010 at 16:02.
LS, I have checked against all the documents you have suggested and still cannot find a reference to say that one must start a stopwatch at the start of taxiing before a flight and stop said stopwatch as soon as taxiing has finished post flight.
What I can find, is that the flight time, which includes taxi time, must be recorded. I can see nothing whatsoever to suggest that the method used by my company is in conflict with this rule, nor have I seen or heard of any indication from CASA that this is not an acceptable means of complying with the rule.
We are logging flight time in a method that is proven to be both reliable and accurate.
You sound like exactly the kind of person that gives CASA a bad name. You have read something into a law that is simply not there and are now running around trying to force that interpretation onto others using scare tactics about prosecution and shouting about how people's careers will be ended.
What I can find, is that the flight time, which includes taxi time, must be recorded. I can see nothing whatsoever to suggest that the method used by my company is in conflict with this rule, nor have I seen or heard of any indication from CASA that this is not an acceptable means of complying with the rule.
We are logging flight time in a method that is proven to be both reliable and accurate.
You sound like exactly the kind of person that gives CASA a bad name. You have read something into a law that is simply not there and are now running around trying to force that interpretation onto others using scare tactics about prosecution and shouting about how people's careers will be ended.
