China Southern WA
Join Date: Jan 2002
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I gather they're still recruiting and bringing people on quite happily however I understand that newbies now do not have to go to MDN which of course was just about a right of passage for everyone moving up the ranks... thats fair for the guys still there! 
I understand also that the MDN allowance has been removed for newbies and the flight allowance halved...
Another rumour from the ranks is that instructors have to have all cancelations approved by the CP or the GM... can a non-flying GM 'approve cancelations'??... I thought that would be down to the PIC??
Ok... its been a few years since I've had the pleasure of playing in the JT & MDN offices but it certainly sounds like things are sliding backwards...
They may be rumours but surely where there's smoke there's fire??
Can anyone still there shed any further light?? From what Im hearing I wouldn't be heading there in a hurry...
P.O.M
I understand also that the MDN allowance has been removed for newbies and the flight allowance halved...
Another rumour from the ranks is that instructors have to have all cancelations approved by the CP or the GM... can a non-flying GM 'approve cancelations'??... I thought that would be down to the PIC??
Ok... its been a few years since I've had the pleasure of playing in the JT & MDN offices but it certainly sounds like things are sliding backwards...
They may be rumours but surely where there's smoke there's fire??
Can anyone still there shed any further light?? From what Im hearing I wouldn't be heading there in a hurry...
P.O.M
Join Date: Aug 2010
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The College IS:
BTW, forgive my ignorance, but what do you consider to be a non-flying GM?
- still paying Merredin allowance for BOTH current and new employees, P.O.M.
- NOT changing the pay structure of ANY current employees; however
- phasing all NEW instructors or current staff applying for, and accepting, a PROMOTION onto a different bonus structure, which is financially viable for both the college and the staff; however
- NOT changing the pay structure that applies to current employees when they receive an Instructor Rating upgrade (i.e. Gr 3 to GR 2, or Gr 2 to Gr 1). Which means no 'forced' pay scale changes, starship.looter
- sending ALL new instructors out to Merredin subject to skill and requirement
- recruiting due to expansion/restructure, which will see MORE pilots flying MORE hours, and as such MORE pilots will then be making MORE money
BTW, forgive my ignorance, but what do you consider to be a non-flying GM?
Join Date: Jan 2002
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They may be rumours but surely where there's smoke there's fire??
As for the smoke and fire comment P.O.M., you will find arsonists in every community
what do you consider to be a non-flying GM?
surely PPRuNe is not free of rumourmongers?
Raising said rumours that get around the industry allows others to clarify or correct as required for the benefit of others...P.O.M
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I like that trick, inserting quotes in little boxes... I'll have to figure out how to do it...
As for the 'thanks', you're welcome
You clarified the point about the non-flying GM, and nope, he doesn't have an Australian Flight Crew Licence but he has some serious hours clocked up over his career... Surely that would put him in a reasonably good position to query the decision made by the PIC?
I think that maybe (and this I don't know for sure) the cancellations have to be justified, rather than 'approved', per se? (for example, to make sure that the 'lightning bolts' are actually in the clouds, and not just in the aforementioned PIC's head from too many bourbons the night before?)
Not that I would ever suggest that pilots might be inclined to drink too much...
kidding kidding- don't all shoot me!
The PIC absolutely has final say about going up...
No one agrees more than I, that the award is ... You seriously gotta look at the system though... when was the last time you walked into a car yard and offered the salesman $5,000 more than the ticket price? 
As for the 'thanks', you're welcome
You clarified the point about the non-flying GM, and nope, he doesn't have an Australian Flight Crew Licence but he has some serious hours clocked up over his career... Surely that would put him in a reasonably good position to query the decision made by the PIC?
I think that maybe (and this I don't know for sure) the cancellations have to be justified, rather than 'approved', per se? (for example, to make sure that the 'lightning bolts' are actually in the clouds, and not just in the aforementioned PIC's head from too many bourbons the night before?)
Not that I would ever suggest that pilots might be inclined to drink too much...
kidding kidding- don't all shoot me!The PIC absolutely has final say about going up...
No one agrees more than I, that the award is
... You seriously gotta look at the system though... when was the last time you walked into a car yard and offered the salesman $5,000 more than the ticket price?
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Apologies for the bump, but interested in the original reason for the thread, the pay scale, the check ride and any interview hints, of any one who has been through it recently.
cheers
cheers
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They pay award, not above as advertised on AFAP. The 'generous' Bonus scheme that they speak of was recently halved after the new owners took over.
A Grage 3 (snr) Instructor can expect award plus $7.50 bonus a flying hour (approx 40-42K). The downside that they dont advertise is that they expect a 45 hour working week, where the award only caters for a 38 hour week. I recently did the calculations and can tell you that for the overtime that the instructors are working every week, they are getting paid $5-$6 an hour (this is what CSWAFC consideres 'above award')
Quite pathetic as they had the best conditions in the country for instructors at one stage.
Other information that might be helpful:
Grade 2 award pay plus a bonus $12.50 a flying hour (previously $25)
Grade 1 award pay plus a bonus $17.50 a flying hour (previously $35)
Absolutely no respect for employees, which shows with the attitude instructors have towards the management (us V them).
Overall i would highly recommend anyone consider all options before accepting employment from this company - not a nice place to work.
A Grage 3 (snr) Instructor can expect award plus $7.50 bonus a flying hour (approx 40-42K). The downside that they dont advertise is that they expect a 45 hour working week, where the award only caters for a 38 hour week. I recently did the calculations and can tell you that for the overtime that the instructors are working every week, they are getting paid $5-$6 an hour (this is what CSWAFC consideres 'above award')
Quite pathetic as they had the best conditions in the country for instructors at one stage.
Other information that might be helpful:
Grade 2 award pay plus a bonus $12.50 a flying hour (previously $25)
Grade 1 award pay plus a bonus $17.50 a flying hour (previously $35)
Absolutely no respect for employees, which shows with the attitude instructors have towards the management (us V them).
Overall i would highly recommend anyone consider all options before accepting employment from this company - not a nice place to work.
Last edited by TalkItUp; 6th Apr 2011 at 09:50. Reason: correction
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Sorry to bump an old thread but would love to know what to expect in the interview. Ive done a search and only found things from 2 years ago. Has anyone experienced the interview process recently? What kind of questions can you expect? etc
Cheers in advance
Cheers in advance
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The interview was pretty straight forward, no tricky questions..
Do you have experience working with international students?
How would you teach international students?
How do you deal with the language barrier?
Talk me through how you would teach a student climbing?
Why are you willing to live out in Merredin?
A student has just completed 4 perfect students on a solo check, what would you do?
My interview was a long time ago I only remember so much, and the CFI has changed twice since working there..
After passing the interview you will do a checkride with the CFI or a senior pilot of the company... In a Grob in the JT training area... Mine consisted of, Patter through a climb, Straight and level.. And do a forced landing.. ( no patter required but I did anyway).. Came back to JT for some circuits and pattered a few..
I worked for this mob for about 9 months... The place is only really good for the logbook and the bank account (also making new friends when you out in merredin as your fellow instructors are the only people you will generally socialize with), As far as I know they are the highest paying GA job in the country.. Management there don't really know how to run a flying school and are pretty self centered regarding their income.. Instructors are often lectured if they are not flying enough hours.. So if you want to sit down with a student and go thru some theory or a nice thorough De-brief that it is not considered 'work' according to management..
Work can be pretty laid back and easy, teaching Phase 2 and 3 (as it was known back then)... Students already have a GFPT and can already fly, all you need to do is analyze their flying de-breif at the end accordingly... They also have instructors work in the 'tower' which is like an air traffic control tower, but you give advisories only.. When it gets quiet you can just sit up there on the internet all day.. lol
Pretty much all instructors (Like me) move on the moment something better comes along, due to the way management treats their instructors. But then again I don't really see the need to be living in Merredin and working for CSWAFC for any longer than you need to..
All in all a good place to work if your looking to fill up your logbook and bank account and facebook friends..
Do you have experience working with international students?
How would you teach international students?
How do you deal with the language barrier?
Talk me through how you would teach a student climbing?
Why are you willing to live out in Merredin?
A student has just completed 4 perfect students on a solo check, what would you do?
My interview was a long time ago I only remember so much, and the CFI has changed twice since working there..
After passing the interview you will do a checkride with the CFI or a senior pilot of the company... In a Grob in the JT training area... Mine consisted of, Patter through a climb, Straight and level.. And do a forced landing.. ( no patter required but I did anyway).. Came back to JT for some circuits and pattered a few..
I worked for this mob for about 9 months... The place is only really good for the logbook and the bank account (also making new friends when you out in merredin as your fellow instructors are the only people you will generally socialize with), As far as I know they are the highest paying GA job in the country.. Management there don't really know how to run a flying school and are pretty self centered regarding their income.. Instructors are often lectured if they are not flying enough hours.. So if you want to sit down with a student and go thru some theory or a nice thorough De-brief that it is not considered 'work' according to management..
Work can be pretty laid back and easy, teaching Phase 2 and 3 (as it was known back then)... Students already have a GFPT and can already fly, all you need to do is analyze their flying de-breif at the end accordingly... They also have instructors work in the 'tower' which is like an air traffic control tower, but you give advisories only.. When it gets quiet you can just sit up there on the internet all day.. lol
Pretty much all instructors (Like me) move on the moment something better comes along, due to the way management treats their instructors. But then again I don't really see the need to be living in Merredin and working for CSWAFC for any longer than you need to..
All in all a good place to work if your looking to fill up your logbook and bank account and facebook friends..
Last edited by dlx_xlb; 2nd Mar 2012 at 16:59.
Not that good for the pay, anymore. They used to pay very well, now they are in the standard GA penny-pinching mindset of paying as little as possible. They do pay an *allowance* of about $7 per flying hour, which, provided you're flying over 60 hours a month, actually pushes your total income over the boundary between below-award and just-above-award.
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I had no real complaints about the pay there..
As a grade 3 you would make $7.50 (before tax) per flying hour.
Grade 2 $12.50
Grade 1 $25 (I think) On the new pay scales... On top of your salary...
You also get a payrise after flying 500 hours (teaching students) with the company, of $5 an hour flying...
As far as i know, CSWAFC is the only place in Australia who pay extra for flying.. SFC might as well not sure...
On top of your salary and flying allowance you also used to get paid extra for a tower shift, and briefing time.. $20 for towershift and now only $5 for briefing time.. Used to be like $50 per brief.. (dont know if they still do)
Working week typically 9 hours a day for 10 days in a fortnight..
so you max out on your duty times of 90 hours in a fortnight..
But if the weather is **** and no flying is going on, most instructors just go home as its only a 5 min walk away..
Back during my time, we used to get 3 day weekends which was good, so we could spend some time in Civilization (Perth)... 4 on 3 off then 6 on then 1 off....
As a grade 3 you would make $7.50 (before tax) per flying hour.
Grade 2 $12.50
Grade 1 $25 (I think) On the new pay scales... On top of your salary...
You also get a payrise after flying 500 hours (teaching students) with the company, of $5 an hour flying...
As far as i know, CSWAFC is the only place in Australia who pay extra for flying.. SFC might as well not sure...
On top of your salary and flying allowance you also used to get paid extra for a tower shift, and briefing time.. $20 for towershift and now only $5 for briefing time.. Used to be like $50 per brief.. (dont know if they still do)
Working week typically 9 hours a day for 10 days in a fortnight..
so you max out on your duty times of 90 hours in a fortnight..
But if the weather is **** and no flying is going on, most instructors just go home as its only a 5 min walk away..
Back during my time, we used to get 3 day weekends which was good, so we could spend some time in Civilization (Perth)... 4 on 3 off then 6 on then 1 off....
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Anyone recently had interviews or contact with CSWAFC? would appreciate any info.
I'm a G2 considering heading over to perth and possibly merredin but looking at all flight training jobs around the airport.
Sounds like management can be a headache but aren't they everywhere? interested in pay, realistic hours per month, if i would have to teach any ground theory class and possibilities of progression into IFR twin training.
I'm a G2 considering heading over to perth and possibly merredin but looking at all flight training jobs around the airport.
Sounds like management can be a headache but aren't they everywhere? interested in pay, realistic hours per month, if i would have to teach any ground theory class and possibilities of progression into IFR twin training.
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Teach everything, hours are regular, Merredin is full of the other sex....Management are F'd, upgrades to twins, get into a long long line. Your probably better trying to get into FTA to be honest.
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So not the best of conditions. I've worked at a couple places where management were terrible but it's kind of part and parcel of flying schools where instructors are mostly treated like . Just have to set your goals of what you want out of them and stick to the plan, which is what I'm planning if i can get in. Do you know if G2's have to teach theory? average flight hours per month?
. Just have to set your goals of what you want out of them and stick to the plan, which is what I'm planning if i can get in. Do you know if G2's have to teach theory? average flight hours per month?
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Looking to throw in an application... Could someone who works or has worked at CSWAFC answer these questions?
Do China Southern bond any new instructors in any manner? How is the all round professionalism and morale of the college?
Do China Southern bond any new instructors in any manner? How is the all round professionalism and morale of the college?
Last edited by Twin_time_hunter; 1st Jul 2012 at 08:01.
Who cares if a G2 has to teach theory?
If you can't, you shouldn't be instructing.
If you only care about maxing your hours so you can rack off to something "better", you shouldn't be instructing.
If you can't, you shouldn't be instructing.
If you only care about maxing your hours so you can rack off to something "better", you shouldn't be instructing.
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Hi I worked for CSWAFC about a year ago.. Answers to your questions..
1. Management
- Pretty self centered.. all they care about is how they can up their incomes..
2. Pay
- Award, maybe a touch higher
3. Hours Per month
- expect 60+ Most months
4. Theory
- All grades are expected to do mass briefs, you usually do them one whole class at a time and you are also paid extra for it, As far as ground school goes, its usually junior 3's new to instructing and waiting to get a flying position
5. Progression onto Twins
- Company requirements Grade 1 with 50 hours command Multi.. Company will pay for your META and may bond you
6. Bond
- yes for one year, if you leave before hand you need to pay... During my time heaps of guys left before their year was up... The company just take it out of your leave..
7. Professionalism
- Id rate as pretty good, their an airline remember?
1. Management
- Pretty self centered.. all they care about is how they can up their incomes..
2. Pay
- Award, maybe a touch higher
3. Hours Per month
- expect 60+ Most months
4. Theory
- All grades are expected to do mass briefs, you usually do them one whole class at a time and you are also paid extra for it, As far as ground school goes, its usually junior 3's new to instructing and waiting to get a flying position
5. Progression onto Twins
- Company requirements Grade 1 with 50 hours command Multi.. Company will pay for your META and may bond you
6. Bond
- yes for one year, if you leave before hand you need to pay... During my time heaps of guys left before their year was up... The company just take it out of your leave..
7. Professionalism
- Id rate as pretty good, their an airline remember?
Nixor ut Ledo
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Only 2 things about the students with China Southern:
Point 1: As someone who shares the skies with them you have to be really on the ball when they are solo.
"Wing wong ting tong Free tasund fee (3,000 ft) Wonan Ill (Wongan Hills) ting tong wing wong"
"f**k! thinks I, my altitude and I'm near Wongan better go up a thousand"
Zzzzzzip as a flash of white zips past underneath well away from Wongan!!
Point 2: Two x solo land away at Northam and carefully park their aircraft close to Northam Air Services (definitely not the usual parking area). Happy snaps for the family album in front of their aircraft and then a carefully posed couple of happy snaps in front of the open hangar doors of NAS. And I dare say that those snaps rapidly winged their way back to the homeland and into the int files of the Chinese military. Just keeping things up to date you understand.
Point 1: As someone who shares the skies with them you have to be really on the ball when they are solo.
"Wing wong ting tong Free tasund fee (3,000 ft) Wonan Ill (Wongan Hills) ting tong wing wong"
"f**k! thinks I, my altitude and I'm near Wongan better go up a thousand"
Zzzzzzip as a flash of white zips past underneath well away from Wongan!!
Point 2: Two x solo land away at Northam and carefully park their aircraft close to Northam Air Services (definitely not the usual parking area). Happy snaps for the family album in front of their aircraft and then a carefully posed couple of happy snaps in front of the open hangar doors of NAS. And I dare say that those snaps rapidly winged their way back to the homeland and into the int files of the Chinese military. Just keeping things up to date you understand.
Last edited by allan907; 9th Jul 2012 at 09:46.
