FSA article: a MATTER of DEGREE
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Really?! From my observations, uni life is traditionally way more about doing as much socialisation as possible and minimal work. Calculating how many questions you can get wrong in order to 'pass.' Figuring out who got the most drunk on the weekend and waltzing from one party to the next while trying to get as many chicks as possible. Really good maturing going on there!
Yes, that is the life I lived when doing an aviation degree. IMHO the majority of content taught in an aviation degree can be learnt straight from the recommended textbooks, part of the reason i attended 20% of my lectures yet still achieved a 84% GPA.
Yes, that is the life I lived when doing an aviation degree. IMHO the majority of content taught in an aviation degree can be learnt straight from the recommended textbooks, part of the reason i attended 20% of my lectures yet still achieved a 84% GPA.
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I have gone through the degree path and i have to agree with you gentlemen. The degree path only has a way of opening up the many different aspects of aviation, including the laws and regulations, structures and aircraft design. Theres no reason why a student at any other school cannot learn from the vast resources available to them.
Degree programs tend to spoon feed students but i as an instructor always tell them to look beyond all the marketing and the corporate statements that are made to lure them towards airline training. Its important for them to realise there is a different world out there too.
My point is that both paths are equally good in the experience they provide. A 150 hour pilot is a 150 hour pilot. It only matters what little things he has been taught by a good instructor, not what the overall program tends to teach ("Airline training"). You can set out SOPs and what not but what a student really needs is some quality one on one time with someone whos more interested in giving that guy/girl the best chance at someday becoming a proficient pilot. Unfortunately as more students want degrees, management prefers to cram them in to over crowded courses. That is when the problems start.
my 2 cents, newagebird
Degree programs tend to spoon feed students but i as an instructor always tell them to look beyond all the marketing and the corporate statements that are made to lure them towards airline training. Its important for them to realise there is a different world out there too.
My point is that both paths are equally good in the experience they provide. A 150 hour pilot is a 150 hour pilot. It only matters what little things he has been taught by a good instructor, not what the overall program tends to teach ("Airline training"). You can set out SOPs and what not but what a student really needs is some quality one on one time with someone whos more interested in giving that guy/girl the best chance at someday becoming a proficient pilot. Unfortunately as more students want degrees, management prefers to cram them in to over crowded courses. That is when the problems start.
my 2 cents, newagebird
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$10 says that Psycho Joe and Renurpp don't have a degree in anything.
I'll raise you your ten bucks & bet the Liberian deficit that Horatio Leafblower is a frustrated investment banker.
Either that or he wishes that he was an airline pilot so that he could validate those fealings of superiority over those of us who are.
So why do you hate your mother?....
There seems to be a school of thought among many (not all) uni graduates in all fields that if you don't have a degree you are not quite up there with the rest of them.
I have managed to self study CPL and IREX and had two separate succesfull careers after leaving school at Y10.
My training was completed at a 'lowly' country aeroclub, where ego's were few and fun & proffesionalism were the priorities.
I dont recall any GA company I have worked with asking anything about my training.
They were however interested how well I would get along with the average passenger and whether I can show good airmanship and fly the aircraft in a smooth and safe manner to commercial considerations.
After you finish training and begin 'learning' in the real world, it is up to the individual how well they perform and has little do with to whom they paid there training fees.
I agree that article was complete propoganda and a waste of taxpayers money
I have managed to self study CPL and IREX and had two separate succesfull careers after leaving school at Y10.
My training was completed at a 'lowly' country aeroclub, where ego's were few and fun & proffesionalism were the priorities.
I dont recall any GA company I have worked with asking anything about my training.
They were however interested how well I would get along with the average passenger and whether I can show good airmanship and fly the aircraft in a smooth and safe manner to commercial considerations.
After you finish training and begin 'learning' in the real world, it is up to the individual how well they perform and has little do with to whom they paid there training fees.
I agree that article was complete propoganda and a waste of taxpayers money
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Sorry j3, but if it looks like an advertisement and it smells like an advertisement........ well, you know the rest. That reply from the editor was nothing more than the worst case of backpedaling I've ever seen. Where did it suggest in the article that this would be a series of articles, thereby allaying our suspicions?
This Professor could be the former commander of the space shuttle for all I care, however his obvious attempt to belittle general aviation as a viable route to the airlines helps him to read like a subjective git.
I agree that there are many cliches about bush pilots being better aviators that are simply false and having taken the "bush pilot" route myself I'm forced to sometimes cringe at the things I read on here but let's face it, this article was quite obviously not without agenda.
I love that the editor believes that CASA has met its objective by promoting debate about safety, when all they've really done is encourage argument about bias in journalism.
This Professor could be the former commander of the space shuttle for all I care, however his obvious attempt to belittle general aviation as a viable route to the airlines helps him to read like a subjective git.
I agree that there are many cliches about bush pilots being better aviators that are simply false and having taken the "bush pilot" route myself I'm forced to sometimes cringe at the things I read on here but let's face it, this article was quite obviously not without agenda.
I love that the editor believes that CASA has met its objective by promoting debate about safety, when all they've really done is encourage argument about bias in journalism.
Psycho
I'll raise you your ten bucks & bet the Liberian deficit that Horatio Leafblower is a frustrated investment banker.
Either that or he wishes that he was an airline pilot so that he could validate those fealings of superiority over those of us who are.
Either that or he wishes that he was an airline pilot so that he could validate those fealings of superiority over those of us who are.
My statement - and more particularly, your response - merely illustrate that the people you find most loudly decrying degree-holding pilots are usually not degree holders themselves and not fully qualified to comment on the usefulness, or otherwise, of a degree over the life span of its holder.
As for feelings of superiority...
I don't feel superior to any person, except those that dress their prejudice up with excuses and call it "considered opinion".
Capt Claret A/Prof Ross Telfer is the name you seek - he also wrote an excellent book on how to sail small boats. He was better with small boats.
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When have I decried tertiary education?
I do however believe that my, & for that matter your (non aviation) tertiary qualifications are irrelevant here so I've never posted them.
On the other hand you like to make it clear to the world that you are smarter than everyone else. You use tertiary qualifications as a point of defence. Your qualifications & background are largely non aviation which makes it all the more important for you to tell everyone how smart you are. This way people will understand that whilst you are not an airline pilot you could have been, & if you were you'd be better than the rest because you are you. And you're compulsively always right. Much to the quiet annoyance to all around you.
You have no argument here.
You have no point here.
The more that you argue about nothing on a public forum, the more you appear like a drunk screaming at a lamp post. The drunk will win his argument but the public will be served a spectacle.
I do however believe that my, & for that matter your (non aviation) tertiary qualifications are irrelevant here so I've never posted them.
On the other hand you like to make it clear to the world that you are smarter than everyone else. You use tertiary qualifications as a point of defence. Your qualifications & background are largely non aviation which makes it all the more important for you to tell everyone how smart you are. This way people will understand that whilst you are not an airline pilot you could have been, & if you were you'd be better than the rest because you are you. And you're compulsively always right. Much to the quiet annoyance to all around you.
You have no argument here.
You have no point here.
The more that you argue about nothing on a public forum, the more you appear like a drunk screaming at a lamp post. The drunk will win his argument but the public will be served a spectacle.
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Are Degrees Helpfull For Career Advancement
Like most here I have many friends in the industry who hold degrees. I do not.
Without exception, all my friends with Aviation degrees have not done any better then me or faster then me in our career advancement. We all went through training schools, Instructing, Charter (singles, pistion twins and turbines, both single pilot and multi crew) and now a combintaion of little jets and big jets (depending on lifes choices) all at the same relative pace.
Those of my firends that had non aviation degrees (IT, Management and Law) shot through the ranks at an amazing rate.
If the good Prof. holds the creds mentioned earlier, then he should flamin well know better.
Without exception, all my friends with Aviation degrees have not done any better then me or faster then me in our career advancement. We all went through training schools, Instructing, Charter (singles, pistion twins and turbines, both single pilot and multi crew) and now a combintaion of little jets and big jets (depending on lifes choices) all at the same relative pace.
Those of my firends that had non aviation degrees (IT, Management and Law) shot through the ranks at an amazing rate.
If the good Prof. holds the creds mentioned earlier, then he should flamin well know better.
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I don't feel superior to any person, except those that dress their prejudice up with excuses and call it "considered opinion".
I dunno why but we seem to live in a country where everything is Cert III this Cert IV that or degree in whatever.
I have no problem if a well-trained pilot got that training through a degree program. Personally, I've never really understood why a degree program was put together - other than universities finding new ways to enrol more students, especially from overseas.
Isn't the point here that the FSA article was apparently one-sided? I didn't read it - but, then again, I don't read anything in that trashy-mag anymore.
Ted
BTW - I don't have any aviation degrees; but I've got a couple of non-aviation ones. So I don't think I have a bias either way.
I have no problem if a well-trained pilot got that training through a degree program. Personally, I've never really understood why a degree program was put together - other than universities finding new ways to enrol more students, especially from overseas.
Isn't the point here that the FSA article was apparently one-sided? I didn't read it - but, then again, I don't read anything in that trashy-mag anymore.
Ted
BTW - I don't have any aviation degrees; but I've got a couple of non-aviation ones. So I don't think I have a bias either way.
you like to make it clear to the world that you are smarter than everyone else.
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[QUOTE]
There was no payment made to CASA for this content.[/QUO
In the past, FSA often commissioned an article to be published in the magazine and pay the author depending upon the number of words. Maybe this was a case in question?
There was no payment made to CASA for this content.[/QUO
In the past, FSA often commissioned an article to be published in the magazine and pay the author depending upon the number of words. Maybe this was a case in question?
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Not worth getting up set about it, unless you own a flying school not affiliated with a university.
I couldn't afford to move 600k's to the city from country NSW, support myself through uni for 3 years and learn to fly. It had to be one or the other so I went to a country school and learnt to fly.
I'm jealous of those that did get the opportunity and I have worked with a few all fine aviators, the only comment I could make was that some did not come out with many quals, I flew jumpers with one degree guy who came out of a 3 year degree with a bare cpl and an instructor rating - no ifr and no atpl subjects ! so wtf did he do for 3 years ? I expect this has been rectified since - it was some time ago.
I couldn't afford to move 600k's to the city from country NSW, support myself through uni for 3 years and learn to fly. It had to be one or the other so I went to a country school and learnt to fly.
I'm jealous of those that did get the opportunity and I have worked with a few all fine aviators, the only comment I could make was that some did not come out with many quals, I flew jumpers with one degree guy who came out of a 3 year degree with a bare cpl and an instructor rating - no ifr and no atpl subjects ! so wtf did he do for 3 years ? I expect this has been rectified since - it was some time ago.
Last edited by Aerodynamisist; 11th Jul 2010 at 06:28.
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Aviation degrees are as useless as tits on a bull.
Those who do degrees in other fields do pick up some useful skill sets and definitely have an advantage, but those who do an Aviation degree barely even seem to get a skill set they need long term - ATPL subjects, instrument and/or instructor rating - little lone something that makes them stand out from the crowd.
More than a few I've met seem to think everything should be handed to them on a plate and unwilling to put in the effort required outside driving a plane (passenger check in, clean the plane afterwards, etc.) It really just appears to be another rebadged zero to hero course.
There are some excellent pilots with Aviation degrees, but the degree did not change their attitude or drive.. they would be the same excellent pilots they are owing to their own motivation and attitude, not a bit of paper they spent three years obtaining. They get the job done, put in the effort to keep themselves current for renewals and progress through the system because they put in the effort. But there are just as many (if not more) excellent pilots without an Aviation degree who manage the same thing.
Those who do degrees in other fields do pick up some useful skill sets and definitely have an advantage, but those who do an Aviation degree barely even seem to get a skill set they need long term - ATPL subjects, instrument and/or instructor rating - little lone something that makes them stand out from the crowd.
More than a few I've met seem to think everything should be handed to them on a plate and unwilling to put in the effort required outside driving a plane (passenger check in, clean the plane afterwards, etc.) It really just appears to be another rebadged zero to hero course.
There are some excellent pilots with Aviation degrees, but the degree did not change their attitude or drive.. they would be the same excellent pilots they are owing to their own motivation and attitude, not a bit of paper they spent three years obtaining. They get the job done, put in the effort to keep themselves current for renewals and progress through the system because they put in the effort. But there are just as many (if not more) excellent pilots without an Aviation degree who manage the same thing.
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I have heard of people who held an aviation degree but still hadn’t passed their CASA ATPL exams since the CASA pass mark was higher than the uni pass mark.
Nothing against degrees, they are certainly not a bad thing, but where is the evidence to prove that degree qualified pilots are any better? I would be very interested to see a proper non-biased study of long term airline sim and line check performance (which naturally includes CRM etc) versus academic qualifications (note that degree status is not an indicator of intelligence).
I will hypothesise now that there would be no correlation. It really does just come down to the individual. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find people with a practical trade background coming out on top.
Nothing against degrees, they are certainly not a bad thing, but where is the evidence to prove that degree qualified pilots are any better? I would be very interested to see a proper non-biased study of long term airline sim and line check performance (which naturally includes CRM etc) versus academic qualifications (note that degree status is not an indicator of intelligence).
I will hypothesise now that there would be no correlation. It really does just come down to the individual. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find people with a practical trade background coming out on top.
Folks,
The one thing the "Professor" does not have is any significant GA experience, and in my opinion, has the usual disdain, bordering on contempt for GA, indeed any non-military trained pilot, that is common amongst ex-RAF ( note: RAF, not necessarily true of RAAF) officers.
It comes across in this article.
Having said that, one of the shortcomings of most club/school based training is that the ground component is limited to "how to pass the exams", with little in-depth study beyond the bare minimum to pass, unless the student is a self starter who wants to dig deeper.
In contrast, most Uni. type courses cover a somewhat broader field than the bare CASA syllabus, as do some but not all airline cadet schemes.
Does it make a difference in the long run??? That is a question to which the only answer is: It depends on the individual.
Tootle pip!!
The one thing the "Professor" does not have is any significant GA experience, and in my opinion, has the usual disdain, bordering on contempt for GA, indeed any non-military trained pilot, that is common amongst ex-RAF ( note: RAF, not necessarily true of RAAF) officers.
It comes across in this article.
Having said that, one of the shortcomings of most club/school based training is that the ground component is limited to "how to pass the exams", with little in-depth study beyond the bare minimum to pass, unless the student is a self starter who wants to dig deeper.
In contrast, most Uni. type courses cover a somewhat broader field than the bare CASA syllabus, as do some but not all airline cadet schemes.
Does it make a difference in the long run??? That is a question to which the only answer is: It depends on the individual.
Tootle pip!!
