Jetstar Cadetship (again)........
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I know it's only early days yet, but has anyone heard anything following their testing/interview day(s)? I would assume the ab-initio guys would be first to hear because they did their testing first.
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Advanced Cadet Program
Hey just wondering if anyone knows what job prospects would be at the end of the 6 year bond? Assuming you have your ATPL by the end of it (because you already had the command time req'd), would you have a good chance at getting into another carrier or would you be considered less qualified or employable because you've done the cadetship?
Anyone gone past stage 1 after applying for the ACP? Any info appreciated
Anyone gone past stage 1 after applying for the ACP? Any info appreciated
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone is zero
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Aspiring j* cadets:
There is no "low cost" Fuel.
There are no "low cost" Aircraft.
There are no "low cost" Spares.
There are no "low cost" Landing charges.
There are no "low cost"Airport Handling charges*.
Given the small cost of the pilots per seat (typically 1/10 of the airport landing & handling charges alone), it may surprise you to know that for the rest of your career, it will be you that the managers come after to extract cost savings. You ARE the weak link, you are one of the few "cost" items that management can control. Even better if they can turn a profit out of training their crew
The margins that LCC's work on simply do not allow for to pay for training pilots, think about it. There is not a snowflakes chance in hell that this scheme would have passed muster with the board without a business case to show an excellent rate of return. Managers are not going to invest one cent unless they think they will get back their cent plus some.
The intent of these sorts of scheme's is to turn the junior pilots into paying pax. There are enough sufficiently qualified pilots coming through the GA system to satisfy demand, so why start the scheme? REVENUE.
See for yourself, directly from the pilots agreement you will work uper. Remember, it will take around 4 years to before you will have sufficient experience to be a "full" FO.
In that 4 years, your gross income will have just exceeded the cost of your training. In other words, you have spent 5.5 years (1.5 training, 4 years work) of you life effectively without pay. Sure, now you have a qualification & industry experience. As to what you can do with that experience? Who could say. You may well be offered a command somewhere in S.E Asia on local condition for a franchise of j*, perhaps a Middle East carriers will employ you. I think you'll will be lucky to gain an Australian based command.
Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement, 2008, Page 4
Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement, 2008
* Some airports have separate LCC charge schedule, with reduced services.
There is no "low cost" Fuel.
There are no "low cost" Aircraft.
There are no "low cost" Spares.
There are no "low cost" Landing charges.
There are no "low cost"Airport Handling charges*.
Given the small cost of the pilots per seat (typically 1/10 of the airport landing & handling charges alone), it may surprise you to know that for the rest of your career, it will be you that the managers come after to extract cost savings. You ARE the weak link, you are one of the few "cost" items that management can control. Even better if they can turn a profit out of training their crew
The margins that LCC's work on simply do not allow for to pay for training pilots, think about it. There is not a snowflakes chance in hell that this scheme would have passed muster with the board without a business case to show an excellent rate of return. Managers are not going to invest one cent unless they think they will get back their cent plus some.
The intent of these sorts of scheme's is to turn the junior pilots into paying pax. There are enough sufficiently qualified pilots coming through the GA system to satisfy demand, so why start the scheme? REVENUE.
See for yourself, directly from the pilots agreement you will work uper. Remember, it will take around 4 years to before you will have sufficient experience to be a "full" FO.
In that 4 years, your gross income will have just exceeded the cost of your training. In other words, you have spent 5.5 years (1.5 training, 4 years work) of you life effectively without pay. Sure, now you have a qualification & industry experience. As to what you can do with that experience? Who could say. You may well be offered a command somewhere in S.E Asia on local condition for a franchise of j*, perhaps a Middle East carriers will employ you. I think you'll will be lucky to gain an Australian based command.
“Junior First Officer” means a pilot who is appropriately trained, licensed and endorsed to act as a First Officer, but has insufficient experience to qualify for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence (ATPL).
25.1 Base Salary
JUNIOR FO (60% of Level 2 FO)
1 Jan 2008 $52,271
1 Jan 2009 $53,839
1 Jan 2010 $55,454
1 Jan 2011 $57,118
1 Jan 2012 $58,831
JUNIOR FO (60% of Level 2 FO)
1 Jan 2008 $52,271
1 Jan 2009 $53,839
1 Jan 2010 $55,454
1 Jan 2011 $57,118
1 Jan 2012 $58,831
* Some airports have separate LCC charge schedule, with reduced services.
I don't think the great jobs abroad will still be there for J* Cadets in a decade.
They will compete with thousands of other underpaid, in-debt pilots (like Indians ) for jobs that are a shade of their former COS's.
Why?
Because airlines will recognize their predicament and their pliability due debt and career hopes. And adjust conditions accordingly. J* cadets will leave the Australian lifestyle in the hope of a quick command abroad and the monetary advantage of not paying as much tax.
The haves and have nots amongst pilots will be more obvious. And they will be bitterly envious with nobody to blame but themselves!
Rant over and in summary. Pilot shortage or not, the high paying jobs won't be abroad and it's your own fault. The airlines know your price.
They will compete with thousands of other underpaid, in-debt pilots (like Indians ) for jobs that are a shade of their former COS's.
Why?
Because airlines will recognize their predicament and their pliability due debt and career hopes. And adjust conditions accordingly. J* cadets will leave the Australian lifestyle in the hope of a quick command abroad and the monetary advantage of not paying as much tax.
The haves and have nots amongst pilots will be more obvious. And they will be bitterly envious with nobody to blame but themselves!
Rant over and in summary. Pilot shortage or not, the high paying jobs won't be abroad and it's your own fault. The airlines know your price.
Join Date: Feb 2010
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To anyone considering this scheme:
Just an observation I have made (which I have no opinion of, but i noticed) is that the only people who are slamming this cadetship are the GA guys. I'll let you interpret that however you want.
PS: I have no interest in this cadet program.
Just an observation I have made (which I have no opinion of, but i noticed) is that the only people who are slamming this cadetship are the GA guys. I'll let you interpret that however you want.
PS: I have no interest in this cadet program.
I am slamming it because it's a game changer dramatically affecting the future of young Australian pilots.
I have 14,000 hours mostly in airlines, am 40 and thanks to this great industry can afford to retire.
I have 14,000 hours mostly in airlines, am 40 and thanks to this great industry can afford to retire.
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Roxy, refer to Gnadenburgs excellent post(s).
About GA pilots being the only voice of dissent; you are wrong, just plain wrong.
If you had no interest in the J star scheme then why would you bother posting?
About GA pilots being the only voice of dissent; you are wrong, just plain wrong.
If you had no interest in the J star scheme then why would you bother posting?
Last edited by sumtingwong; 28th Jun 2010 at 13:07.
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Gnadenburg
I am from GA industry but can you explain how these numbers add up? When I was 17 a friend of mine did the Qantas cadetship and is now a 747 FO. After spending around $90,000 he was trained from zero to 767 FO...
How does Jetstar calculate someone with an ATPL and IFR require another $84,000 +- to do an A320 endo plus CRM and TEM courses?? I'm guessing ab-initio course will cost around $150,000 - 160 mark.
What these cadets are missing is the valuable GA experience which will make them better pilots in the end...
I am from GA industry but can you explain how these numbers add up? When I was 17 a friend of mine did the Qantas cadetship and is now a 747 FO. After spending around $90,000 he was trained from zero to 767 FO...
How does Jetstar calculate someone with an ATPL and IFR require another $84,000 +- to do an A320 endo plus CRM and TEM courses?? I'm guessing ab-initio course will cost around $150,000 - 160 mark.
What these cadets are missing is the valuable GA experience which will make them better pilots in the end...
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Roxy Chic, I'm not from GA, with 7500+ RPT jet & with 20+ years in the industry. I'm also agnostic on the cadet/GA/military background.
I am slamming this scheme because anyone that OWES their employer for 6 years is going to be extorted, mark my words.
Anyone that signs up for this scheme will have demonstrated to their potential employer they lack rat cunning, are gullible, breathtakingly naďve & ripe for exploitation. This is a path to becoming an indentured serf.
Yeh, what would us old skool crusties know.
I am slamming this scheme because anyone that OWES their employer for 6 years is going to be extorted, mark my words.
Anyone that signs up for this scheme will have demonstrated to their potential employer they lack rat cunning, are gullible, breathtakingly naďve & ripe for exploitation. This is a path to becoming an indentured serf.
Yeh, what would us old skool crusties know.
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Just for those who are unsure....
I was asked in for testing, after a lot of research and lots of phone calls I have withdrawn my application for the ACP.
Too many things didn't add up. I know that one pulling out won't make a difference however it has to start somewhere.
The whole situation is just wrong, its exploiting our passion and what we love doing...
Having said that good luck to those who are going for it, just think twice like i did....
I was asked in for testing, after a lot of research and lots of phone calls I have withdrawn my application for the ACP.
Too many things didn't add up. I know that one pulling out won't make a difference however it has to start somewhere.
The whole situation is just wrong, its exploiting our passion and what we love doing...
Having said that good luck to those who are going for it, just think twice like i did....
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Dunno..
"What these cadets are missing is the valuable GA experience which will make them better pilots in the end..."
I'm not disagreeing but wonder how much GA experience contributes to a high tech, multi crew environment. GA has always focused on the one pilot, rely on yourself type approach. The flight deck of modern jet is about technology and systems management and multi crew discipline.
Again just being the devils advocate here but if all these guys want is a career in modern jets, do they really need GA experience?
(this is the initial expenditure argument aside. Any employer which asks YOU to pay to be interviewed by THEM is tantamount to daylight robbery.)
BP.
I'm not disagreeing but wonder how much GA experience contributes to a high tech, multi crew environment. GA has always focused on the one pilot, rely on yourself type approach. The flight deck of modern jet is about technology and systems management and multi crew discipline.
Again just being the devils advocate here but if all these guys want is a career in modern jets, do they really need GA experience?
(this is the initial expenditure argument aside. Any employer which asks YOU to pay to be interviewed by THEM is tantamount to daylight robbery.)
BP.
here but if all these guys want is a career in modern jets, do they really need GA experience?
All this happens in stages and by the end you are very ready to jump into the right seat of an airliner after being a skipper on a Metro/Braz/Dash/Saab.
So no, GA doesn't mean you've jumped from a 210 into a 737, but rather built your skills and experience through 2000-3000 hours of flying.
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Again just being the devils advocate here but if all these guys want is a career in modern jets, do they really need GA experience?
I have never flown anything bigger than a bug smasher twin but i really don't belive that someone who has 250hrs TT can be as capable (especially in non-normal situations) up the front of an aeroplane that weighs several hundered tons as somone who actually has some experience. I know i couldn't fly for
as a fresh CPL and I still have a hell of a lot of learning ahead of me before I would feel confident enough in my own abilites to have a couple of hundred punters down back.
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My take on the whole thing.
You build experience by making mistakes and learning from them. Those with low hours have not had the chance to make or learn from their mistakes and as a result have no experience on which to call on when things go wrong other than pulling out the book. General Aviation (in my opinion) tends to weed out those that simply can not do the job properly, which means those progessing from GA to the airlines generally know what they are doing. I say generally because I do accept some slip through the gaps.
The few low houred pilots I know who have gone to airlines have been less than steller pilots. One crashed a C206 on a low level go around simply because he did nothing with his feet, the plane yawed left and into some trees (bush strip). He could not find a job elsewhere in Africa after that but returned to Europe and is now sitting in the righthand seat of a 737. So here we have someone who lacked basic stick and rudder skills who now sits in the front of a plane carrying 180 passengers simply because he had the money to pay for a type rating.
Another example. Speaking with a Captain at a party once, he was telling me about a recent ILS approach into an airfield on a rather nasty day. He commented that in all his time sitting in the Left Hand seat, the only time he had EVER considered needing to take over from the FO was on this approach. The FO was simply overloaded and not coping. You couldn't really blame the FO though, he was a former Cadet with no real world experience and had never flown in wind like this before which leads me back to my first statement.
I have no doubt there are many great Cadets out there but I think my concern and the concern of many other pilots is that some not so great Cadets are also getting through. Even if (as some say) the experience gained in GA is not really relevant to today's airlines, I like the thought of the pilots up front (or beside me) having scared themselves a few times and learnt from it because that my friends, is one really gains experience.
You build experience by making mistakes and learning from them. Those with low hours have not had the chance to make or learn from their mistakes and as a result have no experience on which to call on when things go wrong other than pulling out the book. General Aviation (in my opinion) tends to weed out those that simply can not do the job properly, which means those progessing from GA to the airlines generally know what they are doing. I say generally because I do accept some slip through the gaps.
The few low houred pilots I know who have gone to airlines have been less than steller pilots. One crashed a C206 on a low level go around simply because he did nothing with his feet, the plane yawed left and into some trees (bush strip). He could not find a job elsewhere in Africa after that but returned to Europe and is now sitting in the righthand seat of a 737. So here we have someone who lacked basic stick and rudder skills who now sits in the front of a plane carrying 180 passengers simply because he had the money to pay for a type rating.
Another example. Speaking with a Captain at a party once, he was telling me about a recent ILS approach into an airfield on a rather nasty day. He commented that in all his time sitting in the Left Hand seat, the only time he had EVER considered needing to take over from the FO was on this approach. The FO was simply overloaded and not coping. You couldn't really blame the FO though, he was a former Cadet with no real world experience and had never flown in wind like this before which leads me back to my first statement.
I have no doubt there are many great Cadets out there but I think my concern and the concern of many other pilots is that some not so great Cadets are also getting through. Even if (as some say) the experience gained in GA is not really relevant to today's airlines, I like the thought of the pilots up front (or beside me) having scared themselves a few times and learnt from it because that my friends, is one really gains experience.
Last edited by Water Wings; 30th Jun 2010 at 00:08.
"WW" whole hardheartedly agree but it's a different beast these days aviation right or wrong
Yr thoughts & mine as well as many others are slowly being 'weeded' out to end up with a product (Gen Z) that is type specific trained therefore needing no previous experience.
Wk2
Yr thoughts & mine as well as many others are slowly being 'weeded' out to end up with a product (Gen Z) that is type specific trained therefore needing no previous experience.
Wk2
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"Would you have brain surgery done by a 21 year old surgeon fresh out of uni? Surgeons only have 1 person's lives in their hands at a time and it takes 10 years + to make a surgeon. How many people does an A321 seat again?"
Its hardly brain surgery though is it. I'll probably get shot down for saying it but there is a gulf of difference between the two. I also don't agree that the amount of people behind you should make a difference, what then about train or bus drivers? (most of whom make more?).
I don't think there is ANY substitute for experience but I do wonder about the Ryan air scheme where 250 hr greenies get into the right seat of a 737 and it "SEEMS" to be working?
I guess my point is how much stick and rudder skills do you really need to fly a modern jet?
As always, happy to be enlightened!
BP.
Its hardly brain surgery though is it. I'll probably get shot down for saying it but there is a gulf of difference between the two. I also don't agree that the amount of people behind you should make a difference, what then about train or bus drivers? (most of whom make more?).
I don't think there is ANY substitute for experience but I do wonder about the Ryan air scheme where 250 hr greenies get into the right seat of a 737 and it "SEEMS" to be working?
I guess my point is how much stick and rudder skills do you really need to fly a modern jet?
As always, happy to be enlightened!
BP.