Jetstar Cadetship (again)........
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone is zero
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess my point is how much stick and rudder skills do you really need to fly a modern jet?
Airbus "automation" abandons you below 100' in manual flight.
Automation will not save you close to the ground. Until you've actually seen an autoland from the flightdeck you wouldn't believe how primitive it really is. Sure it will get you on the ground in benign WX (fog), but turbulent & gusty conditions it will have you sitting on the edge of your seat. That goes for a Boeing or the Bus.
Stick & rudder is still vital.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: The Land Downunder
Posts: 765
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What a load or rubbish. GA experience can definately be an advantage, no question about that. But saying that a pilot without GA expeirience is somehow dangerous and will never make a good pilot is just wrong! Once again, I have flown with dozens of Captains who apart from the basic training they completed as a cadet have never set foot in anything apart from a modern airliner. I have flown with Captains who are ex-GA and ex-Military, the worst I have ever flown with was ex-RAF, does that mean that all ex-RAF pilots are crap airline pilots.... NO. Waterwings, if your mate was so concerned about the FO flying the ILS approach in such conditions then he should have taken over, that is his job as a Captain, that is why he is there. As for the bloke who pranged his 206 and is now on a 737, don't forget that regardless of whether you pay for the rating or not, you still have to pass the same flight tests and written exams as everyone else, you can't buy your way through these. Infact from my experience cadets are often put under extra scruitiny purely for the fact that it is known they don't have a big pool of experience to draw upon. Some cadets will not be able to cope with the training, they ones that pop out the other end will make perfectly good airline pilots. By the way I know people with big GA backgrounds who themselves have failed to meet the standard of airline flying, so don't for a second think just because you have a few years flying a clapped out single around this will mean you will make a good jet pilot.
By all means attack the cadetship for being poor value due to the cost involved and the potential for it to reduce terms and conditions across the board, but please don't pedal the line that people who come through this scheme are all going to be bad pilots. That is just rubbish. By the way, I have both GA and Cadetship experience (although I didn't have to pay anything for my sponsorship) I think that this is a poor scheme due to the cost and if it were me I wouldn't be signing up for it, it is too expensive and the 6 year bond is too long. I will not though discourage others as it is their own choice, and when I get to fly with them I will keep an eye on them just like I keep an eye on anyone else sitting on the flightdeck with me.
By all means attack the cadetship for being poor value due to the cost involved and the potential for it to reduce terms and conditions across the board, but please don't pedal the line that people who come through this scheme are all going to be bad pilots. That is just rubbish. By the way, I have both GA and Cadetship experience (although I didn't have to pay anything for my sponsorship) I think that this is a poor scheme due to the cost and if it were me I wouldn't be signing up for it, it is too expensive and the 6 year bond is too long. I will not though discourage others as it is their own choice, and when I get to fly with them I will keep an eye on them just like I keep an eye on anyone else sitting on the flightdeck with me.
Youre arguing the exception to try to prove the rule.
On average, the 3000 hour GA pilot is going to be better in the right seat when things go to **** than a 250 hour cadet. Enough crashes due pilot error have occured to demonstrate that simply being able to pass the airline line check is not automatic qualification for "good pilot".
How did the low time Qlink trainees on average go again?
On average, the 3000 hour GA pilot is going to be better in the right seat when things go to **** than a 250 hour cadet. Enough crashes due pilot error have occured to demonstrate that simply being able to pass the airline line check is not automatic qualification for "good pilot".
How did the low time Qlink trainees on average go again?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Waterwings, if your mate was so concerned about the FO flying the ILS approach in such conditions then he should have taken over, that is his job as a Captain, that is why he is there.
Yes you are spot on in regards to the job of the Captain. The point I was making is that this was the only time he had ever needed to CONSIDER the possiblity of taking over. The former GA pilots in the fleet having actually having flown in conditions like this being better able to remain on top of the situtation which was what my post primarily about...experience.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Melbourne
Age: 60
Posts: 952
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What point are you guys arguing again?
Are you debating cadetships in general, or the current J* cadetship?
I tend to agree with AH: That is, cadetships in general aren't necessarily a bad thing.
Besides, there are plenty of "cadet vs. GA vs. Mil" threads on Prune. I doubt very much whether you'll get any points of view on this thread that haven't been thrashed out in the other ones.
The current J* cadetship, OTOH, is little short of financial slavery, IMHO
DIVOSH!
I tend to agree with AH: That is, cadetships in general aren't necessarily a bad thing.
Besides, there are plenty of "cadet vs. GA vs. Mil" threads on Prune. I doubt very much whether you'll get any points of view on this thread that haven't been thrashed out in the other ones.
The current J* cadetship, OTOH, is little short of financial slavery, IMHO
DIVOSH!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Melbourne
Age: 60
Posts: 952
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How did the low time Qlink trainees on average go again?
The courses from April - December 2008 had plenty of 200 hour pilots. Most of them (AFAIK) did pretty well and are still going well. All of the Qantas cadets that we've had (or still have) are going well (most of them were around the 200 hour mark when they joined).
A lot of the guys who had problems were older and/or more "experienced".
One guy who was on my course had problems during his course and still had "issues" flying the line (and in the sim) 18 months later. He started at Qlink with 1800 hours. One of my mates didn't get through the sim sessions this year, and he had over 2500 hours (including twin turbine command hours).
DIVOSH!
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: utopia
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DIVOSH I agree with some of your post (financial slavery being the main point of this cadetship). However, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you've ever flown with these 200hr cadets/trainees on line being in the left hand seat have you?
Ask any captain who has and sometimes (not always) and in some instances CAVOK wind calm conditions its like sh
tin bricks.
Ask any captain who has and sometimes (not always) and in some instances CAVOK wind calm conditions its like sh
tin bricks.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Melbourne
Age: 60
Posts: 952
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bo
You're right! I've not flown with these guys; I'm still an FO.
And you're right about that as well. But I've spoken with captains who've flown with new FO's with over 2000TT and they've had exactly the same experience as you described above.
The point I was trying to make was that JUST BECAUSE someone is a cadet, doesn't mean that they're going to be crap! Experienced GA pilots can be just as crap when flying "for the airlines"
Hope that explains
DIVOSH!
You're right! I've not flown with these guys; I'm still an FO.
Ask any captain who has and sometimes (not always) and in some instances CAVOK wind calm conditions its like shtin bricks.
The point I was trying to make was that JUST BECAUSE someone is a cadet, doesn't mean that they're going to be crap! Experienced GA pilots can be just as crap when flying "for the airlines"
Hope that explains
DIVOSH!
Youre also arguing the exception to prove the rule. Yes, there will be some low time guys who will be good. Yes, there will be some high time guys that arent.
So your core point is fine, just because youre a cadet, it doesnt mean youre automatically bad. Thats fine.
But averaged out across the line, the standard is going to be lower than much higher time GA people who have battled against a 30 year old piston twin trying to kill them for the last 3 or so thousand hours. Surely thats a given and is evidenced by more than 1 circumstance I can think of.
So your core point is fine, just because youre a cadet, it doesnt mean youre automatically bad. Thats fine.
But averaged out across the line, the standard is going to be lower than much higher time GA people who have battled against a 30 year old piston twin trying to kill them for the last 3 or so thousand hours. Surely thats a given and is evidenced by more than 1 circumstance I can think of.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Melbourne
Age: 60
Posts: 952
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Das I'm not sure that we're disagreeing with another in any major way. You earlier posted some generalisations, and my post to you was to point out that generalisations aren't always true (as we all know 
).
Besides, as I said earlier, I don't think we're going to get any new development on the "GA vs. Cadet" debate.
What my problem is with the J* cadet scheme!
My understanding is that you pay OAA around 170k (plus up to 19.5k for accomm. and meals for 18 months). Then you pay 84k for the advanced bit in HKG (less the 21k that J* put up). You can sacrifice the remaining 63k over 6 years (10.5kpa).
Total outlay is 233k or 254k over a 7 1/2 year period.
Meanwhile your earnings are (roughly):
While you're a Junior FO (58kpa) base pay
Once you're a lvl 2 FO (89kpa) base pay
Let's assume that after 4 years you'll get the quals for the ATPL and become a lvl 2 FO. (This is a big assumption, and you might be a Junior FO for the entire six years of your bond).
So 4x 58 + 2x 89 = 410,000.00 over 7 1/2 years.
Earnings less Outlay = 156,000.00 = just under 23,000.00 pa gross salary.
Sure, there are penalties and allowances on top of your base pay, but you've also got to look where are J* going to base you. Darwin? (Highest rents in Australia), Singapore? (makes Darwin look cheap).
What a great lifestyle! Grossing just over 1/3 of the Australian average full-time wage for 7 1/2 years flying an A320!
You'll finish your bond with zero dollars in the bank (assuming you're not still in debt), and hoping that J* renew your contract (Look at some of the european threads in case you think it can't happen here). If J* don't renew your contract, you'll have very limited options in Oz.
But hey, to all the prospective applicants... Don't say you weren't warned.
DIVOSH!
P.S. I'm more than happy to be proved wrong on the amounts above.
).Besides, as I said earlier, I don't think we're going to get any new development on the "GA vs. Cadet" debate.
What my problem is with the J* cadet scheme!
My understanding is that you pay OAA around 170k (plus up to 19.5k for accomm. and meals for 18 months). Then you pay 84k for the advanced bit in HKG (less the 21k that J* put up). You can sacrifice the remaining 63k over 6 years (10.5kpa).
Total outlay is 233k or 254k over a 7 1/2 year period.
Meanwhile your earnings are (roughly):
While you're a Junior FO (58kpa) base pay
Once you're a lvl 2 FO (89kpa) base pay
Let's assume that after 4 years you'll get the quals for the ATPL and become a lvl 2 FO. (This is a big assumption, and you might be a Junior FO for the entire six years of your bond).
So 4x 58 + 2x 89 = 410,000.00 over 7 1/2 years.
Earnings less Outlay = 156,000.00 = just under 23,000.00 pa gross salary.
Sure, there are penalties and allowances on top of your base pay, but you've also got to look where are J* going to base you. Darwin? (Highest rents in Australia), Singapore? (makes Darwin look cheap).
What a great lifestyle! Grossing just over 1/3 of the Australian average full-time wage for 7 1/2 years flying an A320!
You'll finish your bond with zero dollars in the bank (assuming you're not still in debt), and hoping that J* renew your contract (Look at some of the european threads in case you think it can't happen here). If J* don't renew your contract, you'll have very limited options in Oz.
But hey, to all the prospective applicants... Don't say you weren't warned.
DIVOSH!
P.S. I'm more than happy to be proved wrong on the amounts above.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: London
Age: 36
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Divosh,
That is now the 23rd time that exact response has been posted. You've informed us of nothing.
Your next post should be about the effect on GA and the industry as a whole, because the past three threads haven't heard much of that either.
You people obviously dont understand the concept of this thread, instead you've all hijacked it to spin negatives and panic about anything and everything. The last post somebody made discussing the cadetship with those applying (the forum's intention), was long ago. You haven't realised that all your all doing is moaning to a group of people who have the same opinion as you... SO START YOUR OWN THREAD! No wonder everyone is fighting tooth and nail to avoid GA, because its filled with bitter and disgruntled pilot's who think it's their way or the highway... and who very much value their anonymity. I suggest you all get a hobby
That is now the 23rd time that exact response has been posted. You've informed us of nothing.
Your next post should be about the effect on GA and the industry as a whole, because the past three threads haven't heard much of that either.
You people obviously dont understand the concept of this thread, instead you've all hijacked it to spin negatives and panic about anything and everything. The last post somebody made discussing the cadetship with those applying (the forum's intention), was long ago. You haven't realised that all your all doing is moaning to a group of people who have the same opinion as you... SO START YOUR OWN THREAD! No wonder everyone is fighting tooth and nail to avoid GA, because its filled with bitter and disgruntled pilot's who think it's their way or the highway... and who very much value their anonymity. I suggest you all get a hobby
Start your own thread in the wannabes forum, that's what you are!
It's called R.E.A.L.I.T.Y.
But seriously, start your own thread in the WANNABES forum and we will leave you alone
here, I'll even give you the link
http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship-104/
You want nothing to do with GA, stop posting in a GA forum!
j3
You people obviously dont understand the concept of this thread, instead you've all hijacked it to spin negatives and panic about anything and everything.
But seriously, start your own thread in the WANNABES forum and we will leave you alone
here, I'll even give you the link
http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship-104/
You want nothing to do with GA, stop posting in a GA forum!
j3
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Melbourne
Age: 60
Posts: 952
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mighty_Mouse
LOL! 
I'm well aware that my post was a repeat of several others. It might be the last one of mine, but it wont be the last of that type.
Why? Because people out there (like you, perhaps?) still want to go ahead with this cadetship, despite its financial insanity, because your dream of aviation is blinding you to other realities.
Far from being "bitter and twisted", I had my first flying lesson when I was 38, and am now an FO for Qantaslink (i.e. not GA
) and couldn't be happier with where I am in my flying career. But I can almost guarantee that a large number of people who do this cadetship will be bitter and twisted by their second year in J*.
So mate, feel free to ignore my advice (most people do anyway).
DIVOSH!
P.S. Anonymity? Send me a PM and I'll give you my name and number (most people in Qlink know who I am - Eastern pilots, anyway). Better yet, if you're doing the cadetship, call me in 3 years and let me know how you're travelling.
I'm well aware that my post was a repeat of several others. It might be the last one of mine, but it wont be the last of that type.
Why? Because people out there (like you, perhaps?) still want to go ahead with this cadetship, despite its financial insanity, because your dream of aviation is blinding you to other realities.
Far from being "bitter and twisted", I had my first flying lesson when I was 38, and am now an FO for Qantaslink (i.e. not GA
) and couldn't be happier with where I am in my flying career. But I can almost guarantee that a large number of people who do this cadetship will be bitter and twisted by their second year in J*.So mate, feel free to ignore my advice (most people do anyway
).DIVOSH!
P.S. Anonymity? Send me a PM and I'll give you my name and number (most people in Qlink know who I am - Eastern pilots, anyway). Better yet, if you're doing the cadetship, call me in 3 years and let me know how you're travelling.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone is zero
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I cannot & will not stand by and let a scheme such undermine the entire industry without speaking up. I would not be able to sleep at night if I did.
I and others have endeavoured to cut through the propaganda to provide the raw facts, such as the true cost of the scheme & the likely income.
The FACT is that pilots in the US receive food stamps - social security just to survive. Quote from that article
Given the accelerating deterioration in T&C since 2000 in Oz, I see no reason to suggest the future will be any different here.
So no, I WILL NOT SIT BACK AND SHUT THE f#CK UP so you can live your dream, destroy yourself financially & take the rest of us down with you.
I and others have endeavoured to cut through the propaganda to provide the raw facts, such as the true cost of the scheme & the likely income.
The FACT is that pilots in the US receive food stamps - social security just to survive. Quote from that article
Originally Posted by Michael Moore
I told them about how Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger (the pilot who safely landed the jet in the Hudson River) had testified in Congress that no pilot he knows wants any of their children to become a pilot. Pilots, he said, are completely demoralized. He spoke of how his pay has been cut 40% and his own pension eliminated.
So no, I WILL NOT SIT BACK AND SHUT THE f#CK UP so you can live your dream, destroy yourself financially & take the rest of us down with you.
MM
I don't see any bitter disgruntled pilots posting on here just some people providing another side of the story.
Two points
Firstly this thread is in a GA Forum so you might expect to find GA pilots replying, Don't you think?!!!!!!!!!
Secondly I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that all that have posted on this thread bagging the Jetstar cadetship are GA pilots. I think several are in the airlines and are providing good feedback for the likes of you.
Open your eyes and take a look at what has happened with cadets in Europe.
Can you tell us why why Jetstar has introduced this programme? There isn't a shortage of pilots.
No wonder everyone is fighting tooth and nail to avoid GA, because its filled with bitter and disgruntled pilot's who think it's their way or the highway...
Two points
Firstly this thread is in a GA Forum so you might expect to find GA pilots replying, Don't you think?!!!!!!!!!
Secondly I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that all that have posted on this thread bagging the Jetstar cadetship are GA pilots. I think several are in the airlines and are providing good feedback for the likes of you.
Open your eyes and take a look at what has happened with cadets in Europe.
Can you tell us why why Jetstar has introduced this programme? There isn't a shortage of pilots.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alice Springs
Posts: 1,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
These are not isolated cases
Some years ago, I spoke to a pilot who had "purchased" 300 hours of Boeing time with an asian airline. When he reached the 300 hour point they did not have any more flying or salary for him. He was looking for a job flying piston engined aircraft in central Australia.
Another pilot was desparately trying to climb the slippery ladder and sent me a resume that claimed qualifications he did not have.
He went to the UK and paid about $130,000 to be retarined. Last I heard he was trying to get a an airline job in Australia.
GA became chaotic when it was flooded with short term, mobile newbies who really wanted airline jobs, and regional and other airlines appear to be going the same way. That is probably one reason why airlines are staring to run cadet schemes that make it more difficult to leave and go to bigger ships elsewhere. It also gives them some control over the number of available new pilots, so they can plan better. They have also passed on the cost of training to the cadets. (like CASA and ASA, they are probably making a profit from the "cost recovery.") Airlines are businesses and are required to make profits for their shareholders.
Even the RAAF expect a return of service in return for training, and run "cadet schemes".
Airline flying is beginning to be like a film star job in Hollywood. A few make big bucks, but it takes luck and many years of impoverished hard work to get there. If you do.
The main problem with the system is the furphy that highly paid airline jobs are usually availablewith a little bit of training.
This lures far too many wannabies and airlines can offer sub standard conditions and still get plenty of applicants.
Only the flying schools and the airlines benefit.
Another pilot was desparately trying to climb the slippery ladder and sent me a resume that claimed qualifications he did not have.
He went to the UK and paid about $130,000 to be retarined. Last I heard he was trying to get a an airline job in Australia.
GA became chaotic when it was flooded with short term, mobile newbies who really wanted airline jobs, and regional and other airlines appear to be going the same way. That is probably one reason why airlines are staring to run cadet schemes that make it more difficult to leave and go to bigger ships elsewhere. It also gives them some control over the number of available new pilots, so they can plan better. They have also passed on the cost of training to the cadets. (like CASA and ASA, they are probably making a profit from the "cost recovery.") Airlines are businesses and are required to make profits for their shareholders.
Even the RAAF expect a return of service in return for training, and run "cadet schemes".
Airline flying is beginning to be like a film star job in Hollywood. A few make big bucks, but it takes luck and many years of impoverished hard work to get there. If you do.
The main problem with the system is the furphy that highly paid airline jobs are usually availablewith a little bit of training.
This lures far too many wannabies and airlines can offer sub standard conditions and still get plenty of applicants.
Only the flying schools and the airlines benefit.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: London
Age: 36
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hey guys i heard news today that apparently jetstar are accepting all these cadets, and as soon as they get to melbourne, instead of starting their training, the OAA and J* management team are going to EAT THEM!! Thats just what I heard, but dont say you werent warned!
Thats just what I heard, but dont say you werent warned!
DI VOSH.
All those numbers add up, I agree with everyone's sentiments which is why I withdrew my application for the ACP.
Be nice if everyone else did the same, but I doubt it.
All those numbers add up, I agree with everyone's sentiments which is why I withdrew my application for the ACP.
Be nice if everyone else did the same, but I doubt it.