Jetstar Cadetship

[Fly-by-Desire]

What a laugh!
I dont see anything wrong with any of the paths really.
If anything, the old way has always seemed to me to be the more 'dodgey' option, throwing a low experience pilot into single pilot ops doing all those scary bush pilot things as apposed to puting them next to a experienced captain flying from one big airport to the next to learn the ropes, which i think is much more aligned to what happens in every other industry.
All this 'buy your job' bull**** peole go on with, what the hell do you think little johnny in grade 1 is doing? his parents are paying for his education just like every other kid in australia has for decades and will until the day johnny graduates as a doctor, lawyer, whatever! Its the way the world turns people, why is it suddenly criminal when you replace 'doctor, lawyer whatever' with 'pilot'? Every one in GA brought their <5700kg endorsment and CPL didnt they? Its the same thing, just a smaller scale.

Pick which way you wanna go, and everyone else have the decency to be nice and respect their decision.

[travelator]

Krusty, not changed I just omitted that option.

5.172 Aeronautical experience: minimum requirements
(1) For the purposes of paragraph 5.165 (1) (f), a person’s
aeronautical experience must consist of at least 1,500 hours of
flight time that includes 750 hours as pilot of a registered
aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane.
(2) The 750 hours must include:
(a) any of the following:
(i) at least 250 hours of flight time as pilot in command;
(ii) at least 500 hours of flight time as pilot acting in
command under supervision;
(iii) at least 250 hours of flight time, consisting of at least
70 hours of flight time as pilot in command and the
balance as pilot acting in command under
supervision; and
(b) at least 200 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(c) at least 75 hours of instrument flight time; and
(d) at least 100 hours of flight time at night as pilot in
command or as co-pilot.

Therefore the following three scenarios are possible:

1. Cadet has less than 70 hours command time, subsection iii does not apply, therefore 500 hours ICUS is required. (subs ii)

2. Cadet has more than 70 but less than 250 hours command, the balance can be made up of ICUS (max of 180) as per subsection iii.

3. Cadet has more than 250 hours command then they already meet part of the requirement.

I don’t know what the experience levels of those applying are but I would doubt many fall into the third option. Those that would require ICUS, answer me this. Why would Jetstar offer ICUS flying to them? It would mean that these cadets would then have to be paid the same as a qualified FO so why bother having cadets in the first place? You WILL be stuck on this low pay for a very long time.

I don’t want to get into the debate about cadets versus GA (because I am ex GA and therefore biased). I want those that are looking at this scheme to think carefully. Do not be fooled into thinking that the pay will improve, it won’t for a very long time. Don’t be fooled into thinking that you will be living where you want, you will be living where you are told for a very long time. At least if you slog it out in GA, nobody will own your soul and you have control over your career.

[waren9]

Fly by Desire

Have a read of post #51 and see what answers you come up with.

Your comparison with doctors etc is not analogous (sp?), and if you knew more about the industry you would see that.

[tsubasa27]

For all the mud Jetstar are getting over wages, they're by no means the worst out there. Googling yielded:

V Aus
Pre-FO 50000 FO 117500 Captain 179000

Tiger
FO 105000 Captain 175000

Qantas (767, minimum hours)
FO 93600 Captain 169520

J*
Pre-FO 55454 FO 84720 Captain 154037

VB
FO 81150 Captain 151400

ANZ (737, $Kiwi)
Pre-FO 70000 FO 70000 Captain 120000

QLink
FO 51674 Captain 79424

Rex
Pre-FO 30847 FO 42271 Captain 69691

Of course the general conditions vary greatly between all of them.

The real issue is the training costs, which you'll pay OAA $87k for instead of the $50k a typical flying school CPL+MECIR would take. The banks and government will take their slice too. The A320 rating training is also pricey compared to others as was pointed out in the other thread.

On the other hand, if you can survive 6 years on a modest income and missing out on all the "fun" up north then at least you'll probably be free to either stay on and look at gaining command in the next few years or having enough experience to start again at the carrier of your choice.

[oneflewnorth]

I'm glad someone brought up the FEE-HELP repayment fees (it's 20%), most have been forgetting that. The scheme seems great in theory and I can't deny I've considered it as well as the Qantas one, but seriously guys, imagine yourself living off 20 to 30k a year in a capital city (if those figures are right) if you're posted in one...rent alone could take up up to half of that at only $200 a week.

Am I right in saying that the figures tsubasa27 came up with also don't take into account HECS debt, or whatever it's called now?
Also, doesn't the FEE-HELP cover the flight training and HECS cover the Associate Degree? So why is this program so much? I just spent 4 years at uni and my debt is only 25k, if that. This scheme is 1.5 years at uni (Associate Degree), so should be quite cheap shouldn't it? Does that mean flight training is...over $140k?? I'm lost.

[frigatebird]

Lets hear your take on doctors as a comparison then waren..! Personally I think that they are mostly overrated and overpaid for what they achieve though their own efforts. At least an experienced Captain makes life and death decisions for up to hundreds of passengers, in real time, during every flight. They should be better paid than the Learner doctors, who need a second opinion, are too busy to see you at the appointed time, or at all if you don't come from their Area (very unionlike towards their fellow doctors), and can never fix a problem on a first visit but keep you coming back for another consultation or referral (with fee paid before you leave please). Individual doctors go on 'strike' in their own way to get what they want in the way of the lifestyle or remuneration they have come to expect (so much for the Hippocratic Oath). At least dentists get on with the job first visit. How often do doctors get their health tested to enable them to keep practicing? How often do they get assessed on their ability ? Young pilots sell themselves short, if they have this mindset now that it's the only way and they should borrow 100 grand to buy the prospect of a career in the airline profession, then accept rubbish remuneration. There was a time when the 'cosy two' airlines pilots used to strike just before Easter and other public holidays to get salary increases, all changed now, but not all because of the workplace economics, most of it is because people roll over and just let themselves be pushed into accepting 'spin'. Noone gets what they deserve, they get what they negotiate. To complain later is to misunderstand the issue.

[tsubasa27]

I'm glad someone brought up the FEE-HELP repayment fees (it's 20%)

According to The Going to Uni Homepage

On 2 November 2009, the Australian Government announced that, subject to the passage of legislation, the FEE-HELP loan fee will increase from 20 per cent to 25 per cent for undergraduate students enrolled in units of study with a census date on or after 1 July 2010.

I believe the Associate Degree is only available as a full-fee paying course under FEE-HELP, not a Commonwealth Supported Place under HECS-HELP. The vast bulk of the program cost goes to OAA for flight training and a bit on the side for theory at Swinny.

You're quite right that you certainly won't be buying a house or renting anything outside the outer suburbs on that income, I think most will need to seriously think about shared houses or moving back in with parents until you're earning the real FO wage.

[oneflewnorth]

Thanks for clarifying all of that tsubasa, the gov site I went to stated 20%.

As for the doctor argument, the last 4 I've been to have diagnosed me via Google haha.

[major_tom]

IMO 27/09, and Green Goblin have pretty much hit the nail on the head . I think the view of this program by alot of the Ab initio kids, is that they are all wrapped up with the idea that they will be living it up with a splendid salary, big engines, & the glamor of being and airline pilot - without giving it alot of though interms of contract years, and financial matters.

There is nothing wrong with the cadetship, so long as those who apply are also aware of the disadvantages. I also applied for this too and am quite comfortable with all the bullcrap that goes with it. However I have not yet recieved a reply for my application, and frankly I dont mind if I dont get an interview. lol There is nothing wrong with GA, and if I end up in GA for a number of years "so what?" I will be able to work my way up knowing that I have tried to earn a seat in an airline.

As they say "hard work never hurt anyone"

Congrats to those who get in - BUT be aware of what you are getting into.

[PLovett]

I have been following this thread and its predecessor with interest but I have a question which is based on what I believe is happening overseas at Ryanair which I believe is the model for this cadetship.

At the end of the 6 years as a junior FO (or whatever it is called) is there any guarantee that Jet* will retain your services as a full FO?

If not then any prospective cadets should be thinking whether the experience gained will be sufficient to get a job elsewhere (most likely overseas as A320 experience has limited currency in Australia).

[oneflewnorth]

So how does this cadetship compare to the Qantas one? Has anyone done the sums on it and pros/cons in comparison?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

At least an experienced Captain makes life and death decisions for up to hundreds of passengers, in real time, during every flight.

FB, you don't really believe that do you? Huh?

Dr

[Obsess91]

I applied for the ab initio last Tuesday and got the call up from OAA on Saturday during the day. At the moment I've accepted the interview and I'm meant to be going down to Melbourne to complete the 2nd stage this week. However, I no longer have any interest in actually entering into a cadetship with J* because the negatives far outway the positives for me. Seeing as I'm living in QLD, just going down for stage 2 will cost me around $1000 and I really don't have that kind of money to spend on an interview where I could be turned back after 3 hours of tests. Not to mention the exorbitant cost of the cadetship itself! I'm planning on contacing them tomorrow to cancel my interview.

Goodluck to everyone that goes onto Stage 2, just make sure that you have a serious, serious think about the cadetship before you sign anything. To me, heading to GA after I get my qualifications seems to be the best way to go. Anyway, that's just my two cents in between all this animosity..!

[frigatebird]

Mate, if you didn't fly, - without the insight that you now so obviously have,- and it was 100 years ago - you would be no different from the superstitious masses. Why do you think the people went wild over Hinkler and Kingsford-Smith in the twenties and thirties. I applaud them for their courage for 'having a go' and ' being the first' and 'being the best of their generation' and being the 'pioneers', not just because some one else thought they were the local heros. Kingsford-Smith even accepted the position of patron of our local Club, so there is a personal connection, but ultimately it was because they had a go and succeeded - for a while -. The smart a*ses and carpet-baggers come later, but my hat goes off to the PIONEERS, so the pilots (and doctors and hangers-on) who come later with nothing to contribute but criticism about how it could have been done better at the time - can go jump. Bet the Wright Brothers were told numerous times that they were mad too, even though they approached the solution of powered flight in a structured technical way building on the experience of all the pioneers who had gone before.
And after the Wrights there were other pioneers who advanced the art at the cost of their lives put on the line, - sometimes forfeited. What other industry, medicine ? dentistry ? agriculture ? horticulture ? animal husbandry ? - does it to that degree ?

[mcgrath50]

So how does this cadetship compare to the Qantas one? Has anyone done the sums on it and pros/cons in comparison?

I bet no one would have thought we would be saying this but, Qantas is the cheaper cadetship

[eocvictim]

At the end of the 6 years as a junior FO (or whatever it is called) is there any guarantee that Jet* will retain your services as a full FO?

If not then any prospective cadets should be thinking whether the experience gained will be sufficient to get a job elsewhere (most likely overseas as A320 experience has limited currency in Australia).

Unfortunately that part of the site has been taken down but I think you will find that work is not guaranteed. In fact I think you'll find that if its the same as the UK schemes there may be no guarantee of employment at all. They may offer you the opportunity to fly with them as an FO, to gain experience, for a small additional fee. In which case you'd be left with more debt than the Greek government.

The chances of further employment outside of the scheme without any additional experience is pretty close to naught. I'm not sure of the chances of work in GA either. Perhaps with another small investment in some 210 time?

I also think you'll find that with the number of out of work A320 drivers in the UK, the limited experience and lack of JAA ATPL the Ausy guys will not be employable in the EU. Perhaps UAE or Asia?

It would be great if someone could confirm or deny this as it was the way I had interpreted the original page on the J* site. It seems that the answer to the above would be extremely important to anybody applying to this program and anyone who has a definitive answer should inform those wishing to continue with their application process.

[ZappBrannigan]

Can't really blame the kids for applying, or for not really listening to any advice not to apply. I applied for the QF cadetship a few years ago, shortly after I got my CPL - the reason being in my mind the only purpose for existence in aviation was to fly big shiny jets in the shortest amount of time possible. Even the concept of a single multi-command hour back then was super-exciting. Of course, as you progress in GA you learn about how the world really works, or how it should.

I certainly wouldn't have listened to any advice to not apply for the QF cadetship, as what possible reason could exist to NOT want to be up the front of a 747 in a Q uniform 2-3 years after being issued a CPL? Of course now I consider myself wiser, and this cadetship leaves me shaking my head a little.

I suppose my point is - don't expect any reasonable percentage of applicants to care in the slightest about comments on how they're "wrecking the industry". It's not until they've been up the front of that jet for a while that they'll probably start to realise that the other road, while harder and more frustrating, most likely leads to a brighter future. At this stage, they have very little industry knowledge, and just have their eyes fixated on the big jet they could be flying.

I don't see it as any different to people paying thousands of dollars for the privilege of flying some ICUS in a piston twin - blame the operator, but you can't blame the person forking over the cash - they simply don't know any better.

[Gaius Baltar]

Not everyone that has applied for this cadetship has no experience. I know of 5 people, including myself, that have between 1500-3000 total time that have applied. None of us have the minimums to get into an airline directly ( not enough twin time or night hrs). It comes down to this for me ; I am sick to death of the lack of safety culture in GA. I don't regret the flying or the experiences I have but I simply am feedup of the exhuasting mentality in GA. I want to fly aircraft that are safe and work for a company that has high standards. End of story!

I have applied for CTC and I have a date for stage 2 testing in Hamilton in July. If anyone else is going to Hamilton and wants to make contact please PM me.

[fatalbert1]

Does anyone know whats involved for the ACP selection after the initial one day Computer based test and interview? It says if the ab-initio guys are successful they will then have an interview at Jetstar in Melbourne but it doesn't specify what the process is for the ACP.

[Lyra84]

Im not sure about the next stage of ACP - I kinda assumed it would be the same as the ab-initio guys (i.e. followed by an interview with actualy Jetstar people in MEL again) although I am shuddering at the cost. I will be asking them what the next process is this week at my interview.

Does anyone know what the skills assessment/inital interview involves for the ACP? I guess Maths, personality, motivation... any news on specifics yet?