Aircraft down in Canley Vale
I remember when the Mojave was introduced into OZ, I thought at the time it was an impressive machine, but never got the opportunity to fly one and dont know anything about it's performance capability as compared to the Chieftain. The Chieftain isnt a real flash performer with an engine out, but with two people on board and full fuel it will fly away albeit not impressively. I'm curious as I'm sure we all are as to why this aircraft didnt. Would there be any pruners out there with sufficient experience on type to make judgement between the two types performance expectations. We know in the Aero Medical game that aircraft weight can sometimes blow out a bit due to some equipment that gets carried that's not listed as part of standard equipment load. I am aware that that can be quite a surprise come re-weight time.
For now for the same loading how does the Mojave perform as compared to the Chieftain.
For now for the same loading how does the Mojave perform as compared to the Chieftain.
Interesting that on one news report tonight, one witness said the landing gear came down then it hit the wires.
The news footage made it look like a decent wide street.
Perhaps he came VERY close to pulling off a landing.
Sounds like he sure tried his hardest to do so.
The news footage made it look like a decent wide street.
Perhaps he came VERY close to pulling off a landing.
Sounds like he sure tried his hardest to do so.
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The Mojave is based on the Chieftain, with several differences.
The Mojave has a greater wingspan, and is some 500Kgs heavier empty.
Same power as a standard cheiftain, but has about 75-100Kgs higher MTOW.
The aero-med equipment installed + full fuel + crew/nurse and it is not even close to a "lightly loaded twin".
Whilst the chieftain is difficult to fly asymetrically, the Mojave is that much more again.
Just the facts.
The Mojave has a greater wingspan, and is some 500Kgs heavier empty.
Same power as a standard cheiftain, but has about 75-100Kgs higher MTOW.
The aero-med equipment installed + full fuel + crew/nurse and it is not even close to a "lightly loaded twin".
Whilst the chieftain is difficult to fly asymetrically, the Mojave is that much more again.
Just the facts.
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Truckie
What information is that statement based on? Do you have evidence of this?
What information is that statement based on? Do you have evidence of this?
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Im not one to usually say anything but i would like to think that if i am in the same situation, i would say what the problem was or could be. You may say he didnt have time to say much but listening to the tape, i think he could have been a little more discriptive in what was happening to the aircraft. Hes a hero for not crashing into houses but i hope we all learn from this and that is if you dont say anything, no one will ever find out.
Avenel Park
For what it's worth, I was just looking at google maps of the area & there is an Avenel Park just to the side of his track back to BK. It appears to be be about 1000 feet from the NW to the SE corner. About the heading he was flying. Maybe landing with the legs up, it may have been long enough.
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Did not know this pilot, but cannot but be impressed by his demeanor and his coolness, certainly a loss to the industry and off course, new calls will be now started to get rid of Bankstown, (especially by the developers.) I never get used to the loss of fine young pilots, none of us do, and there have been too many in my lifetime. Peace young fella.
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Any pilot that flies any big piston twin knows these are bad performers on one donk. The live engine will take you to the crash sight.
The other day I saw one of their Chieftains out and about with a chunk the size of a cc out of the leading edge of the prop.
Remember the manual of stats on these aircraft are based on brand new aircraft, new props, new donks and a very experienced test pilot at the controls.
These aircraft are well overdue to be taken over by turbine aircraft that still can deliver performance when needed.
The other day I saw one of their Chieftains out and about with a chunk the size of a cc out of the leading edge of the prop.
Remember the manual of stats on these aircraft are based on brand new aircraft, new props, new donks and a very experienced test pilot at the controls.
These aircraft are well overdue to be taken over by turbine aircraft that still can deliver performance when needed.
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It boils down to money where old twins are concerned. The cost of buying a turbine twin to replace an old clapped out '31' is so much more that it's simply not economical & the latter word is business driven. The cost of one turbine engine blown thru either poor handling or just bad luck is alone the cost of a couple of good "31's" (if they are still about).
The old 402's & 31's have done a great job & still do to some degree but there is no solution other than to close up most G/A operators than operate them to increase safety & we know that ain't gunna happen!. Now whether you believe that to be the safest option or the silliest is personal belief.
Twin turbines still hit the deck along with pretty much brand new transport cat A/C you won't stop it all together it's just that ALL A/C have their places & ALL are predicated on COST. Nobody is gunna be running around in a brand new twin turbine with 4 people just purely for safety reasons (commercial wise that is)
Sadly we shall be back here in the future to again re-visit these 'events' that come all too often.
Wmk2
The old 402's & 31's have done a great job & still do to some degree but there is no solution other than to close up most G/A operators than operate them to increase safety & we know that ain't gunna happen!. Now whether you believe that to be the safest option or the silliest is personal belief.
Twin turbines still hit the deck along with pretty much brand new transport cat A/C you won't stop it all together it's just that ALL A/C have their places & ALL are predicated on COST. Nobody is gunna be running around in a brand new twin turbine with 4 people just purely for safety reasons (commercial wise that is)
Sadly we shall be back here in the future to again re-visit these 'events' that come all too often.
Wmk2
Last edited by Tidbinbilla; 15th Jun 2010 at 21:35.
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"In this day and age, in a country as wealthy as Australia, do we need to be flying fare paying pax and government contracts in 30-35 five year old piston aircraft?
The true morons in this episode and stupid waste of life are the Government arseholes that screw operators for the lowest price contracts. "
And that, in a nutshell, is why families and friends are grieving right now. Until the Mining companies, Area Health services, Large corporates and so on are made aware of the risks as well as the consequences inherent in travelling in the clapped out old moll we call the "piston engined fleet" here in this country, it will continue to happen on an ever increasing basis.
Nasty business.
As an aside, me and a few workmates have been approached by the usual suspects to give comment on the accident. Didn't say much to them however I must admit that the media types were very respectful and unobtrusive in speaking to ourselves and others around the field.
Amazing!
The true morons in this episode and stupid waste of life are the Government arseholes that screw operators for the lowest price contracts. "
And that, in a nutshell, is why families and friends are grieving right now. Until the Mining companies, Area Health services, Large corporates and so on are made aware of the risks as well as the consequences inherent in travelling in the clapped out old moll we call the "piston engined fleet" here in this country, it will continue to happen on an ever increasing basis.
Nasty business.
As an aside, me and a few workmates have been approached by the usual suspects to give comment on the accident. Didn't say much to them however I must admit that the media types were very respectful and unobtrusive in speaking to ourselves and others around the field.
Amazing!
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Ageing fleet
Well said Owen Stanley......I do detect some anger and frustration and well justified, this government and previous have treated GA with contempt and it's about time they realised the value of this sector of aviation. They bleed the industry with useless over regulation and impose totally unnecessary costs.
It is just disgusting that aviation is now buried in some mega department and not given the economic importance it deserves. It has devolved from the days of DCA and when it was a distinct department.
Anyway, condolences to the families of the deceased, another sad day for aviation.
It is just disgusting that aviation is now buried in some mega department and not given the economic importance it deserves. It has devolved from the days of DCA and when it was a distinct department.
Anyway, condolences to the families of the deceased, another sad day for aviation.
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SPOT ON GADRIVR. There should be an education program to agencies and the general public on the performance (or lack there of) of older aircraft and let them make their own decisions.
With all due respect to those who have past on.
Unable to make the rwy from 12 miles and 1500', with 2 on board..... Hmmmm... sure the Mojave is not a sparkling performer on one donk, but that should be doable. Methinks there's more to the story than meets the eye ... And yes I have flown them.
Unable to make the rwy from 12 miles and 1500', with 2 on board..... Hmmmm... sure the Mojave is not a sparkling performer on one donk, but that should be doable. Methinks there's more to the story than meets the eye ... And yes I have flown them.
The Chieftain isnt a real flash performer with an engine out, but with two people on board and full fuel it will fly away albeit not impressively. I'm curious as I'm sure we all are as to why this aircraft didnt.
It is not until you move onto FAR 25 design regs that PERFORMANCE, not control, is guaranteed.
another fine chap lost and please don't forget the other crew member. [mother of four].
The industry race to the bottom has been driven by government and bigger company contracts all based on the lowest price without any regard to what has been purchased.
Bank runners/night freighters [light]/general charter all required to operate 20-30 year old clunkers...to meet the price model.
Wake up chaps the answer is in our hands if we don't continue to underbid.
RIP those poor soles...
The industry race to the bottom has been driven by government and bigger company contracts all based on the lowest price without any regard to what has been purchased.
Bank runners/night freighters [light]/general charter all required to operate 20-30 year old clunkers...to meet the price model.
Wake up chaps the answer is in our hands if we don't continue to underbid.
RIP those poor soles...
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Buggalugs,
Where does your height and distance come from? Sounds specific enough that you know where the failure occured?
Ive been looking at the maps trying to think how things went. Even if he faced a total loss of one... considering he would not have been much higher than 1000' outbound from Bankstown? Height loss in the initial clean up and 180 degree turn. The site is within 3 miles of Bankstown. I imagine he was only losing 100 feet a minute, at most.
With my modest Mojave experience, I would think he did a damn fine job even if he had partial power on one. He was just so agonizingly close.
How many losses have Airtex had, now? Was the YSSY Metro the last?
Where does your height and distance come from? Sounds specific enough that you know where the failure occured?
Ive been looking at the maps trying to think how things went. Even if he faced a total loss of one... considering he would not have been much higher than 1000' outbound from Bankstown? Height loss in the initial clean up and 180 degree turn. The site is within 3 miles of Bankstown. I imagine he was only losing 100 feet a minute, at most.
With my modest Mojave experience, I would think he did a damn fine job even if he had partial power on one. He was just so agonizingly close.
How many losses have Airtex had, now? Was the YSSY Metro the last?
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"The industry race to the bottom has been driven by government and bigger company contracts all based on the lowest price without any regard to what has been purchased."
If you have a problem with the age, quality or performance of the Australian GA fleet, take it up with the operators, most of whom happily indulge in a race to the bottom, selling a commodity for less than it's cost.
I've seen far older commercial GA aircraft operating in the USA, UK, Europe and New Zealand.
Obviously that particular aircraft had performed perhaps thousands of departures previously without the same result. How about you leave the technical investigation with those competent to comment at the ATSB?
"ok, is there any pilots out there who think pa31s perfomance on one engine is safe?"
Last edited by Air Ace; 15th Jun 2010 at 13:49.
Kermit
If you listen to the LiveATC recording, he calls " 12 miles to run, and 1 thousand 5 hundred' " and is told to join straight in for 11. Assuming he doing around 120kts, all he needs is a sink rate less than about 250 ft/min. But sadly it sounds like it was higher, and he was out of height just over 5 minutes later..
If you listen to the LiveATC recording, he calls " 12 miles to run, and 1 thousand 5 hundred' " and is told to join straight in for 11. Assuming he doing around 120kts, all he needs is a sink rate less than about 250 ft/min. But sadly it sounds like it was higher, and he was out of height just over 5 minutes later..