Federal Election 2010: Which party will support Aviation?
Grandpa Aerotart
Because Morno throwing money is instant 'stimulus' whereas infrastructure takes a long time to put in place - especially in this modern era of infrastructure projects being endlessly delayed and the costs driven up by Environmental Impact Studies/Statements.
I think you will find that the SHB was NOT a depression era stimulus project - a piece of infrastructure like that would have been in the planning stages for a decade or more before the Great Depression. You will also find that the Australian Govt of the day did NOT take the Keynesian approach during the GD but actually the opposite (dramatically cut spending/public service wages etc) and as a result Australia was exiting from the GD after only a couple of years - a full decade + ahead of the Yanks - who went Keynesian.
Its interesting to compare recessions/corrections that occurred before Govts got hold of a large chunk of the economy (through personal taxation - around 1913 in the US) to those after. Beforehand Govts could do nothing and they were short lived events that relieved the economy of its imbalances and away it went again - after they started to be able to interfere they of course did and the results have been, without exception, truly bad. The current GFC is a product of political interference in the previous several economic corrections making them smaller than they otherwise would have been - the Tech Stock crash is an example. Greenspan lowered interest rates to silly levels and left them there thus turning a correction that would have effected very few people into a housing bubble that effected everyone.
I would have to agree that Howard's workplace reforms cost him Govt - Labor's FWA is no better + we have all the other baggage the economy is currently being saddled with. Personally I believe Australia would have been in a MUCH better place right now had Howard/Costello won. What is economically more sustainable - a short blip of higher unemployment (debatable if it would even have happened) in a structurally sound economy or the massive stimulus debt/wastage and Australia being made a laughing stock with the proposed new super profits tax?
I think you will find that the SHB was NOT a depression era stimulus project - a piece of infrastructure like that would have been in the planning stages for a decade or more before the Great Depression. You will also find that the Australian Govt of the day did NOT take the Keynesian approach during the GD but actually the opposite (dramatically cut spending/public service wages etc) and as a result Australia was exiting from the GD after only a couple of years - a full decade + ahead of the Yanks - who went Keynesian.
Its interesting to compare recessions/corrections that occurred before Govts got hold of a large chunk of the economy (through personal taxation - around 1913 in the US) to those after. Beforehand Govts could do nothing and they were short lived events that relieved the economy of its imbalances and away it went again - after they started to be able to interfere they of course did and the results have been, without exception, truly bad. The current GFC is a product of political interference in the previous several economic corrections making them smaller than they otherwise would have been - the Tech Stock crash is an example. Greenspan lowered interest rates to silly levels and left them there thus turning a correction that would have effected very few people into a housing bubble that effected everyone.
I would have to agree that Howard's workplace reforms cost him Govt - Labor's FWA is no better + we have all the other baggage the economy is currently being saddled with. Personally I believe Australia would have been in a MUCH better place right now had Howard/Costello won. What is economically more sustainable - a short blip of higher unemployment (debatable if it would even have happened) in a structurally sound economy or the massive stimulus debt/wastage and Australia being made a laughing stock with the proposed new super profits tax?
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Chimbu
What do you call the BER than? That has taken more than 12 months to get going and that has been a dissaster with plenty money being rorted by very few with in the community and the insulation issue don't get me started.
The Dog
What do you call the BER than? That has taken more than 12 months to get going and that has been a dissaster with plenty money being rorted by very few with in the community and the insulation issue don't get me started.
The Dog
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Chimbu
Not that you need my agreement - but I do agree with your post.
The only reason I voted Labor was becuase of the poisonous erosion of worker's rights that was Work Choices. If I could have maintained Costello and Howard without that policy - who knows.
Truly the ALP are a disappointment and have done nothing to deserve the support of the majority of Labor voters, let alone other groups within the community.
Not that you need my agreement - but I do agree with your post.
The only reason I voted Labor was becuase of the poisonous erosion of worker's rights that was Work Choices. If I could have maintained Costello and Howard without that policy - who knows.
Truly the ALP are a disappointment and have done nothing to deserve the support of the majority of Labor voters, let alone other groups within the community.
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Don't Aussies always end up with the government they deserve? 
Nahhh! If that were true we'd have Sarah Palin as PM!
Much as I hate KRudd (who's a sainted genius compared to that dip stick Senator Conrod), all those who think Howard & Co carefully crafted "the best years of our lives" are missing the point that the guy had the Reagan like luck to be around at the right time ... plus ...
Who sold off the airports?
__________
Its easy to live it up as "Economic Heroes" if you just sell everything in sight...
Nahhh! If that were true we'd have Sarah Palin as PM!
Much as I hate KRudd (who's a sainted genius compared to that dip stick Senator Conrod), all those who think Howard & Co carefully crafted "the best years of our lives" are missing the point that the guy had the Reagan like luck to be around at the right time ... plus ...
Who sold off the airports?
__________
Its easy to live it up as "Economic Heroes" if you just sell everything in sight...
Josh
In all sincerity, have you seriously looked at the basket case that is now called Fair Work Awards? My estimate is that 80% of employers do not understand the new rhetoric - including the Fair Work staff - and 80% of Australian workers may not be correctly paid.
Australia's industrial relations legislation is now beyond redemption. Work Choices was far from ideal, but with a little mature tweaking it may have been the de-regulated industrial scenario needed by both employers and employees.
Do you remember "Work Choices" and the "AWA" ?, all children of the Howard Government.
Australia's industrial relations legislation is now beyond redemption. Work Choices was far from ideal, but with a little mature tweaking it may have been the de-regulated industrial scenario needed by both employers and employees.
I'll be voting Family First
I'll admit Ive been a life long Labor voter but won't be this time due to the Internet censorship proposal. I couldn't give a rats about aviation policy as there is none. Def won't be voting Abbott.
Whats one to do when one major party wants to censor us and the other is run by a religious nut job who opposes everything?
A secular PM by 2020
Last edited by Fonz121; 6th May 2010 at 09:40. Reason: spelling
Thread Starter
Australian pilots have made it probably the most efficient industry in Australia
What about airport privatisation?
What about CASA & ASA Cost recovery?
What about CASA regulations?
What about the cost of compliance with those constantly changing regulations?
What about the knock-on effects on the slowly shrinking GA industry: loss of "uneconomical" fuel facilities, loss of maintenance expertise, loss of maintenance support?
Many of these issues we see in aviation are common problems across many industries - our particular problem is that our margins in Aviation (and GA in particular) are so small, yet the industry is so important so so many aspects of Australian life.
I would suggest that the Nats are the only ones with a policy because they are the only party that isn't totally weighted towards the cities, and they can actually understand the importance of Aviation to their communities.
Grandpa Aerotart
I don't count the BER as nation building infrastructure like a snowy river scheme was. I would not be at all surprised if the BER was an example of political ideology meeting political opportunity.
The insulation 'stimulus' has actually put that industry to sleep until the imbalances (huge oversupply of insulation) caused by political interference are worked out of the system. On top of deaths/house fires/houses made into potential deathtraps the insulation 'stimulus' has actually CAUSED increased unemployment because not only have the vast numbers of new employees in that industry lost their jobs but several 1000 long term employees have too because their employers have a vast supply of insulation batts that have no demand.
On the subject of Howard's Industrial Relations reforms I will just say this - Its all well and good having a high minimum wage and all sorts of employee empowerment IF that decision is made with full knowledge and acceptance of the costs. Politicians DO KNOW the costs but don't care. The public at large DO NOT KNOW the costs and (mostly) don't care. Employers DO KNOW the costs and DO CARE.
A high minimum wage causes unemployment. A high dole promotes unemployment as a reasonable alternative to employment. The inability to sack an employee who is not performing not only removes the employers fundamental human right to run his business as he sees fit for his own betterment and, by natural extension, to the benefit of his other employees, but ALSO removes that job from the reach of a potential employee who might really want it/need it and enjoy/be good at it.
I'll ask this question - Is society as a whole and an individual school leaver better served by our current system or would it/he or she be better served by a system that allowed an employer to pay them what they are really worth (which may be a lot or very little depending on qualifications) and getting them into the workforce where they can start building qualifications and work their way up the pay scale?
To suggest the ratio of mongrel employers to decent ones is 50/50, as one poster above did, is simply unrealistic. Business' just don't survive long term if they are managed/owned by mean spirited incompetent bastards.
The insulation 'stimulus' has actually put that industry to sleep until the imbalances (huge oversupply of insulation) caused by political interference are worked out of the system. On top of deaths/house fires/houses made into potential deathtraps the insulation 'stimulus' has actually CAUSED increased unemployment because not only have the vast numbers of new employees in that industry lost their jobs but several 1000 long term employees have too because their employers have a vast supply of insulation batts that have no demand.
On the subject of Howard's Industrial Relations reforms I will just say this - Its all well and good having a high minimum wage and all sorts of employee empowerment IF that decision is made with full knowledge and acceptance of the costs. Politicians DO KNOW the costs but don't care. The public at large DO NOT KNOW the costs and (mostly) don't care. Employers DO KNOW the costs and DO CARE.
A high minimum wage causes unemployment. A high dole promotes unemployment as a reasonable alternative to employment. The inability to sack an employee who is not performing not only removes the employers fundamental human right to run his business as he sees fit for his own betterment and, by natural extension, to the benefit of his other employees, but ALSO removes that job from the reach of a potential employee who might really want it/need it and enjoy/be good at it.
I'll ask this question - Is society as a whole and an individual school leaver better served by our current system or would it/he or she be better served by a system that allowed an employer to pay them what they are really worth (which may be a lot or very little depending on qualifications) and getting them into the workforce where they can start building qualifications and work their way up the pay scale?
To suggest the ratio of mongrel employers to decent ones is 50/50, as one poster above did, is simply unrealistic. Business' just don't survive long term if they are managed/owned by mean spirited incompetent bastards.
Labor's great aviation achievements over the decades,
1. Charlie Jones in the Whitlam government,
2. Hawke and the 1989 Pilots dispute
3. Hawke governments setting up the Federal Airports Corporation,
4. Hawke government flogging of airports to local councils,
5. Hawke governments curfew on Sydney airport
6. Hawke government numerous name changes for DCA
7. KRudd about to root the FIFO operaters with his nationalisation of the mining industry,
8 Albenese being in charge of aviation
Greens aviation policy rack up as many frequent flyer points at the taxpayer expense, while saving the world from global warming.
1. Charlie Jones in the Whitlam government,
2. Hawke and the 1989 Pilots dispute
3. Hawke governments setting up the Federal Airports Corporation,
4. Hawke government flogging of airports to local councils,
5. Hawke governments curfew on Sydney airport
6. Hawke government numerous name changes for DCA
7. KRudd about to root the FIFO operaters with his nationalisation of the mining industry,
8 Albenese being in charge of aviation
Greens aviation policy rack up as many frequent flyer points at the taxpayer expense, while saving the world from global warming.
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Horatio
When did these things below [your list] start going really badly
Oh yeh, thats right, during the last Liberal/National Coalition 
The Transport Ministerial Goon Squad Quartet [former Federal Government Transport Ministers]
NATIONALS - Sharp, Anderson, Vaile, & Truss
Is Truss the current shadow?? What has he said or done?
Sorry mate, get real
That is not to say the current dunce is any better for Aviation
Chuck
Unless of course they are the only employer in a particular profession, and the employer is the Government
When did these things below [your list] start going really badly
it's about so much more than IR, although that is one of the hot topics for any employee.
What about airport privatisation?
What about CASA & ASA Cost recovery?
What about CASA regulations?
What about the cost of compliance with those constantly changing regulations?
What about the knock-on effects on the slowly shrinking GA industry: loss of "uneconomical" fuel facilities, loss of maintenance expertise, loss of maintenance support?
Many of these issues we see in aviation are common problems across many industries - our particular problem is that our margins in Aviation (and GA in particular) are so small, yet the industry is so important so so many aspects of Australian life.
I would suggest that the Nats are the only ones with a policy because they are the only party that isn't totally weighted towards the cities, and they can actually understand the importance of Aviation to their communities.
What about airport privatisation?
What about CASA & ASA Cost recovery?
What about CASA regulations?
What about the cost of compliance with those constantly changing regulations?
What about the knock-on effects on the slowly shrinking GA industry: loss of "uneconomical" fuel facilities, loss of maintenance expertise, loss of maintenance support?
Many of these issues we see in aviation are common problems across many industries - our particular problem is that our margins in Aviation (and GA in particular) are so small, yet the industry is so important so so many aspects of Australian life.
I would suggest that the Nats are the only ones with a policy because they are the only party that isn't totally weighted towards the cities, and they can actually understand the importance of Aviation to their communities.
The Transport Ministerial Goon Squad Quartet [former Federal Government Transport Ministers]
NATIONALS
- Sharp, Anderson, Vaile, & Truss Is Truss the current shadow?? What has he said or done?
Sorry mate, get real
That is not to say the current dunce is any better for Aviation
Chuck
Business' just don't survive long term if they are managed/owned by mean spirited incompetent bastards.
Thread Starter
Non-partisan
G'day Chaser
I was ranting to one of my students today about the state of the industry. He asked "Who should I vote for?" and so I looked up the policies.
I have only reported what I found on the net, which is what all of us already know: Aviation does not matter to mainstream Australia so long as they think they're getting cheap fares on the J curve.
I am more than aware of the Nat's track record on this; John Anderson was my local member for a good many years. He was addressing the Chamber of Commerce in 1998 and I stood up and asked him about the state of the aviation industry. Many of my points made above were relevant then too.
His response was that "We recognise that it's very important, but I think you will find it was the Hawke Labor government that created all those problems".
I wasn't quick enough to respond "If it's important then why aren't you doing anything about it?"
I worked for Col Pay at the time, his opinion (like Torres') was that Anderson was the worst Minister for Aviation this country has ever seen
I was ranting to one of my students today about the state of the industry. He asked "Who should I vote for?" and so I looked up the policies.
I have only reported what I found on the net, which is what all of us already know: Aviation does not matter to mainstream Australia so long as they think they're getting cheap fares on the J curve.
I am more than aware of the Nat's track record on this; John Anderson was my local member for a good many years. He was addressing the Chamber of Commerce in 1998 and I stood up and asked him about the state of the aviation industry. Many of my points made above were relevant then too.
His response was that "We recognise that it's very important, but I think you will find it was the Hawke Labor government that created all those problems".
I wasn't quick enough to respond "If it's important then why aren't you doing anything about it?"
I worked for Col Pay at the time, his opinion (like Torres') was that Anderson was the worst Minister for Aviation this country has ever seen
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Jaba,
Agreed, giving the money to the bogans / walking unwashed was probably not the best way to spent it (in terms of tax payer value for money) , but it was the quickest way to inject it directly into the economy, paid on wednesday, spent by wednesday night.
Yes, plasma screen etc etc, how else would you suggest it be directly injected into the economy ?.
To put it into perspective, we have a rental house in Perth, rented by bogans, they were two weeks behind in rent when the stimulus package was paid, did they pay their rent up to date ?, no !!!, the dumbasses purchased a massive plasma, well after taking them to court and doing the whole " ceasure and sale court order " on them, they lost there plasma ( who said the court system does not get it right some of the times )
Sure stimulate the economy a bit, but do not let it become a massive free for all that is nothing short of a gross waste of funds.
Yes, plasma screen etc etc, how else would you suggest it be directly injected into the economy ?.
To put it into perspective, we have a rental house in Perth, rented by bogans, they were two weeks behind in rent when the stimulus package was paid, did they pay their rent up to date ?, no !!!, the dumbasses purchased a massive plasma, well after taking them to court and doing the whole " ceasure and sale court order " on them, they lost there plasma ( who said the court system does not get it right some of the times
)
Last edited by Josh Cox; 6th May 2010 at 11:10.
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Horatio, mate I know the frustration. None of them are worth a pincha goat sh1t.I know from experience that people like Truss will pretend to be all caring and sabre rattling in oppo. In government, they will run you down without even looking back to see who they ran over. Cold hard reality.
KRUDD [or Jules
] will more than likely replace Albosleezy after the next poll [if they get re-elected]. As for MRABBBIT .... mate he is loopey enough to put Bronwyn Bishop
... or maybe Ironbar Turkey ... or maybe Littl' Cris Whyne [I doubt Bananaby would get a run at Transport though ... but then again 
] at our helm. Hava think about that
.... hat .... coat, I'll see me self out
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Well living under the CD is another thing entirely. The only reason they prosper in europe is becuase the alternatives are too frightening and too mired in past transgressions.
Forget which party claims they will support aviation, what you need is bums in seats.
So whichever party will allow business to prosper which in turn will provide employment.
It's business that supports aviation, not government!
I know that's not what you socialists want to hear but tuff toenails!
So whichever party will allow business to prosper which in turn will provide employment.
It's business that supports aviation, not government!
I know that's not what you socialists want to hear but tuff toenails!
Grandpa Aerotart
ozineurope if you want to look at a political experiment gone horribly wrong just look around you. The EU/euro experiment is about to be put to the ultimate test politically, financially and socially. They CANNOT bail out PIIGS because there just simply isn't enough money to fill those holes unless they put the printing presses into overdrive. The Germans will not do that - the ECB is functionally a German institution - because their memories of the results of hyperinflation are too raw.
The fringe EU countries should NEVER have been invited into the eurozone because they were NEVER financially sound in the first place but, NO, the idiot EU pollies in the usual political quest of more power brushed those inconvenient facts aside.
The EU experiment was, allegedly, all about never having another 'WW2' - German shame about their national excesses of the 1930s/40s have until recently had them determinately 'European' in their national psyche rather than 'German'. That is changing and now you're going to have the Germans (the financial engine of Europe) asking their politicians "Ahhh, bail out the PIIGS - Bist du verucht!!!!!?"
Voter backlash will be extreme. The euro becoming worthless, with all that entails, because the Greeks wouldn't work in an iron lung? I'd be very worried about a resurgent nationalist movement - not good - but pendulums always swing past the middle and out to the other extreme.
The Brits/Swiss staying out of the euro will come to be seen as very lucky (for the Brits) and very savvy (for the Swiss). They, at least the Swiss, would have known full well that ALL previous efforts at a common currency/multi country union have failed sooner rather than later.
The fringe EU countries should NEVER have been invited into the eurozone because they were NEVER financially sound in the first place but, NO, the idiot EU pollies in the usual political quest of more power brushed those inconvenient facts aside.
The EU experiment was, allegedly, all about never having another 'WW2' - German shame about their national excesses of the 1930s/40s have until recently had them determinately 'European' in their national psyche rather than 'German'. That is changing and now you're going to have the Germans (the financial engine of Europe) asking their politicians "Ahhh, bail out the PIIGS - Bist du verucht!!!!!?"
Voter backlash will be extreme. The euro becoming worthless, with all that entails, because the Greeks wouldn't work in an iron lung? I'd be very worried about a resurgent nationalist movement - not good - but pendulums always swing past the middle and out to the other extreme.
The Brits/Swiss staying out of the euro will come to be seen as very lucky (for the Brits) and very savvy (for the Swiss). They, at least the Swiss, would have known full well that ALL previous efforts at a common currency/multi country union have failed sooner rather than later.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 6th May 2010 at 12:17.
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Chimbu - spot on.
There are rumblings here already about a return to the DM. Not sure how strong the sentiment as it seems to be the fringe right who are most vocal. The greens and CD have pretty much gouged this country of much of its innovativeness. A lot more group think than I would like thanks.
There is a veneer of efficiency that this country puts out to the rest of the world, live here and you find that is just global spin. The country is mired in one dimensional thinking and a lack of desire to get things moving. Most community service projects (road works etc) remind me of the 80s in Australia, very slow, very labour intensive and never to be completed lest people be out of a job.
Many German people find the EU irrelevant, those that have any gumption to read about or learn about it that is, and many of the 30 to 40 year old age group do not wish to recognise the lessons of the 40s and find it offensive that the rest of the world still remembers.
There are rumblings here already about a return to the DM. Not sure how strong the sentiment as it seems to be the fringe right who are most vocal. The greens and CD have pretty much gouged this country of much of its innovativeness. A lot more group think than I would like thanks.
There is a veneer of efficiency that this country puts out to the rest of the world, live here and you find that is just global spin. The country is mired in one dimensional thinking and a lack of desire to get things moving. Most community service projects (road works etc) remind me of the 80s in Australia, very slow, very labour intensive and never to be completed lest people be out of a job.
Many German people find the EU irrelevant, those that have any gumption to read about or learn about it that is, and many of the 30 to 40 year old age group do not wish to recognise the lessons of the 40s and find it offensive that the rest of the world still remembers.
Grandpa Aerotart
Oh and to answer the thread starter - none - you just have to vote for the party MOST LIKELY to get the hell out of the way (relatively speaking) and let capitalism do its thing - the rest follows.
I'll give you a hint - Expecting to take a 40% dividend from a company you are not a shareholder of, and have no capital at risk in yourself, is not getting the hell out of the way and letting capitalism do its thing. If this tax goes through - and I don't believe it will - WA/QLD FIFO ops will be decimated as well as the employment prospects of many 1000s of Australians not connected to aviation and the super nest eggs of millions of Australians. Think they will be going on holidays via airlines after?
Personally I am wondering how long before Rudd trots out a junior minister to break the news that he's changed his underware - I mean mind.
Why don't I think it will happen - well if you were the CEO of a multi billion $ multinational mining company with competing (for the investment $) interests all over the world what would you do if this tax stands? I would be investing where I get the best return for shareholders as is my fundamental responsibility as CEO - I don't do that I get sacked. Even if I was stupid enough to WANT to invest billions in mining ops in Australia would international banks lend me the money with this uninvited new shareholder possibly deciding at some point 40% isn't enough after all?
How can Rudd climb down from this lunacy and not look even more politically impetuous than he has over ETS, Insulation, BER, Illegal Immigration, Population growth, food watch, fuel watch and on and on?
This is big - he may actually have taken a step too far.
I'll give you a hint - Expecting to take a 40% dividend from a company you are not a shareholder of, and have no capital at risk in yourself, is not getting the hell out of the way and letting capitalism do its thing. If this tax goes through - and I don't believe it will - WA/QLD FIFO ops will be decimated as well as the employment prospects of many 1000s of Australians not connected to aviation and the super nest eggs of millions of Australians. Think they will be going on holidays via airlines after?
Personally I am wondering how long before Rudd trots out a junior minister to break the news that he's changed his underware - I mean mind.
Why don't I think it will happen - well if you were the CEO of a multi billion $ multinational mining company with competing (for the investment $) interests all over the world what would you do if this tax stands? I would be investing where I get the best return for shareholders as is my fundamental responsibility as CEO - I don't do that I get sacked. Even if I was stupid enough to WANT to invest billions in mining ops in Australia would international banks lend me the money with this uninvited new shareholder possibly deciding at some point 40% isn't enough after all?
How can Rudd climb down from this lunacy and not look even more politically impetuous than he has over ETS, Insulation, BER, Illegal Immigration, Population growth, food watch, fuel watch and on and on?
This is big - he may actually have taken a step too far.
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Josh
They lost their plasma.....you purchased the most expensive TV you are likely to own
Yep that is the moronic mentaility of a large number of their supporters.....no wonder Kevvie was popular
Give a man a fish you feed him for a day, teach him to fish for himself and he will feed the whole family/village.
J
They lost their plasma.....you purchased the most expensive TV you are likely to own
Yep that is the moronic mentaility of a large number of their supporters.....no wonder Kevvie was popular
Give a man a fish you feed him for a day, teach him to fish for himself and he will feed the whole family/village.
J