The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

Im in an unusual situation

Old 19th Apr 2010, 07:17
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Boondock villiage
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Im in an unusual situation

G'day Fellas, first post for me and need some direction

So here is my situation, I just got scrubbed of 2FTS at pearce with about 150hrs with an even split between CT-4/PC-9 (15 command, 30hrs sim IF), and had 30hrs (dual) civie before I joined up. Im interested in getting a CPL and continuing flying in GA, however going about this is the difficult part. I have a couple of options:

1# Remain in the RAAF doing a random job for 3 years and get my hours up slowly, or transfer to army (5% chance of that happening).

2# Get out bite the bullet, get a loan and get a CPL

Would my previous military instruction be considered an advantage to getting my first job after training? Also how much is age considered an issue (turning 28 this year) with regards to getting a job?

Further Q's does anyone know flight training establishments that have dealt with a guy in my position before? I know that there are a few of us floating around, tracking them down seems to be the main issue.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Cheers
Elwood
elwoodb is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2010, 08:10
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Go hard at it now if you can.
Jabawocky is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2010, 08:15
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 311
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Elwood,

If you can handle doing a job in the RAAF for a few years, it would be a great way to earn some good coin to pay for your flying. Just make sure that flying is your focus and do it every chance you get. Let Ronnie RAAF help pay for it!
allthecoolnamesarego is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2010, 08:18
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
check your Private Messages.... good luck
spirax is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2010, 09:26
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: shivering in the cold dark shadow of my own magnificence.
Posts: 522
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'd say do whatever you can to go team green. Do your time, join CHC, & see the world.
psycho joe is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2010, 09:51
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the hay shed.
Age: 51
Posts: 106
Received 4 Likes on 2 Posts
Elwood,

You really can't beat GA. Pure Freedom, make your own decisions, reep your own satisfaction for achievement, access to a huge range of toys limited by your own imagination.

I's borrow for your CPL and go for it. Your age is still but small.

Cheers,
L
Lucerne is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2010, 10:39
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ˙ǝqɐq ǝɯ ʇ,uıɐ ʇɐɥʇ 'sɔıʇɐqoɹǝɐ ɹoɟ uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɯɐu ɹıǝɥʇ ʇnd ǝɯos
Age: 45
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If you have a burning desire to fly then get out and beg borrow or steal to get your CPL. If you kind of want to do a bit of flying but would be happy enough... stay in and make some money.

Your turbine time will help a bit but like it or not people will wonder why you got scrubbed but on the upside you'll have more hours under your belt since then and so some more examples of your suitability for the job. (I know it's ****house; there are probably a hundred guys who should have been scrubbed and weren't and vice versa but life isn't fair.)

Once you've got a reasonable amount of time expect that your turbine time will possibly convince an employer you're already working for that you're worth putting onto the next machine a bit earlier.

Just my 2 cents,

FRQ CB
FRQ Charlie Bravo is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2010, 13:38
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Elwood,

I was in your position 4 years ago I know how you must be feeling at the moment.

In short though, I decided that sitting behind a desk was not for me. Finished off CPL and Instructors rating whilst still in and financially secure. Then I got out, instructing full time.

Would I prefer to still be in, probably, all I ever wanted to do was flying Herc's or C17s. However, I have had some great adventures in aviation since being scrubbed. Some great trips around Australia building hours or teaching students.

Drop me a PM with the questions you have, I'd be happy to help.

Stretch06
Stretch06 is online now  
Old 19th Apr 2010, 14:44
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,186
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes on 4 Posts
As a former RAAF QFI I saw several students that were scrubbed on Pilots Course who went on to become highly experienced airline captains on big jets. Some of these RAAF students were scrubbed because they had the bad luck to have lousy instructors whose instructional "technique" was to shout and scream to their students. In those days instructors were not held accountable for student failures and no questions were asked. Hopefully that has all changed but the main thing is to put that all behind you. 150 hours of RAAF flying is a good start to a civvy pilot career. As someone advised you earlier, staying on with the RAAF in another mustering if that option is available to you, helps build a good bank account and a secure future for as long as you wish to stay.

But if you want a flying career (rather than just recreational flying) then the sooner you start the better. That means leaving the RAAF now and going into full time training towards a CPL and instrument rating. The financial risks are great but the RAAF flying training will have helped you greatly with confidence and ability. You would not have got to 150 hours in the RAAF without being a pretty sound pilot. If you are totally enthusiastic about flying as a career then sitting behind a desk in the RAAF at your age is not the way to go. At least with your current flying experience you will be able to spot shonky instruction in a flying school before you get up to your ears in debt.
Centaurus is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2010, 21:24
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 3,067
Received 138 Likes on 63 Posts
I sure hope the RAAF aren't wasting more tax payers money because too many guys have passed so they start scrubbing people for stupid things. 150 hours is alot to then get scrubbed.

I'd say hit the up CPL while it's all still fresh.
neville_nobody is offline  
Old 19th Apr 2010, 22:17
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria
Age: 62
Posts: 984
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I sure hope the RAAF aren't wasting more tax payers money because too many guys have passed so they start scrubbing people for stupid things. 150 hours is alot to then get scrubbed.
So using that logic, if we have a student who hits their capacity limit toward the end of the course, we keep them anyway because they have come that far. Then we would have "qualified" pilots out there who haven't met the standard flying multi-million dollar airframes. How would the taxpayer react to that?
The ADF trains to a standard which is rigorously maintained despite the best efforts of beancounters, politicians and students with lawyers.
While it is true that the majority of suspensions occur early in the course (desirable for many reasons), some do get suspended toward the end because they can't handle the more complex sequences.
Captain Sand Dune is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2010, 00:21
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 46 Likes on 20 Posts
If I were you I would seriously consider looking down the path of the Cathay Cadetship.

I personally know of 3 former 2FTS students that have either completed, or in the process of completing the course and not far off an FO slot.

Apparently as far as the Cathay course goes, you are just like everyone else trying to get a slot off your own merits, however it is my understanding that even though you may not be a 'winged' military pilot, you are still a known quantity (or so I have been told by those who sit in on the interview process).

Flight Training Adelaide runs the course on behalf of Cathay. I would get in touch with them.

I'm a blender driver so a fairly out of touch with the fixed wing world, either way hope this helps. Good luck.
havick is online now  
Old 20th Apr 2010, 08:12
  #13 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Boondock villiage
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks guys

Thanks guys, I was not expecting to get so many replies so quickly! Alright so my situation has changed slightly, being sent back to the newcastle/sydney area in the next few weeks so im going to have to chase all this up when I get there. Again the question is who has any experience in that area with regards to guys with my experience/no qualifications. Im certainly keen to get a CPL and get a job but its just what timeline I choose. Ill be checking out the cathay cadetship, thanks havick.

150 hours is alot to then get scrubbed
Not really, guys get scrubbed all the time with more hours then this... even met a poor guy that got scrubbed with 3 rides until wings. Sometimes the fickle finger of fate is determined to shaft people no matter what, or people just run out of stamina/capacity. Its a very cut throat business, out of the 18 people that I started BFTS with, only 6 now still in the game with a lot of big hurdles to go!

Cheers
Elwood
elwoodb is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2010, 11:50
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alice Springs
Posts: 1,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The RAF run the most expensive flying school in the country. They also have a high failure rate and appear to have avery expensive and inneffective preselection system, or poor instruction. Lots of good people do not complete the course.
Such results would not be tolerated in civilian life where value for money and accountability are inportant.
I would suggest you stay where the garunteed income is and get civil licences and do job search in your own time before killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.
bushy is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2010, 01:32
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria
Age: 62
Posts: 984
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well, where do we start?
1. RAF or RAAF? One is in the UK, the other in Australia
2. “Ineffective”, “important”, “guaranteed”. Spell check is wonderful thing.
3. Yes, the ADF does run the most expensive flying school in the country. Quality costs.
4. Yes, compared to civilian schools the ADF does have a higher failure rate. The ADF require graduates who have demonstrated the potential to learn at a required rate. This is so because once they progress to the expensive and complex operational types, the ADF does not want to (nor can it afford to) waste time going back over basic techniques. I would imagine the tax paying public would take a very dim view of sub-standard pilots flying increasingly complicated and expensive airframes.
5. Yes, some good people do get suspended from ADF pilot training. The fact that they were suspended from ADF pilot training is not a statement on their character, it just means that at the time they weren’t suited to the military way of doing things. Some of them go on to become very good operators in civil aviation. Good on them!
6. The fact that the failure rates on ADF pilots course would not be tolerated in the civil arena is irrelevant. The ADF is not training civil pilots.
Captain Sand Dune is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2010, 03:33
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: YMML
Posts: 2,560
Received 5 Likes on 4 Posts
CSD, as long as the cadet is scrubbed for operational reasons and not personality clashes with the instructor at the time....I work with a guy that got scrubbed from BFTS because he said "umm" too many times doing an impromtu dog and pony show..scrubbed , that's it, don't come back...strange way of picking if some has the apititude to adapt quickly to different situations.
OZBUSDRIVER is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2010, 03:39
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The crew room
Posts: 54
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Even though you didn't finish the course, getting the same level of knowledge and skill as you have now would take some effort in the civil world. Even though the PC-9 is a crap platform for preparing you for the RAAF's real aircraft, it's still a much better platform for learning IF than a 30 year old duchess. Plus I can't imagine how I would have gone trying to gather the knowledge in the civil industry that the RAAF rammed into my head during groundschool.

If you stay in it might help you get the cash together, but if you are the kind of person who works hard at the work they are given, you might find it hard to get the time and continuity to learn your flying at any reasonable pace. A lot depends on what job they give you. As others have said, if you can get a desert deployment, come home with a bunch of cash in the bank, resign and 6 months later you are in your first GA job with all your basic quals done. That's IF you get the right job in the RAAF.

If you want to fly, get on with it now. You will hurt financially for about 4 years while you get the time together (this doesn't have to be the end of the world, especially if you are single) and you may even have a great time. By the time your RAAF buddies finish ROSO, you'll be a Jetstar Captain earning $40k a year more than them.
FlareHighLandLong is online now  
Old 21st Apr 2010, 05:09
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 3,067
Received 138 Likes on 63 Posts
The ADF trains to a standard which is rigorously maintained despite the best efforts of beancounters, politicians and students with lawyers.
And what happens if too many guys look like passing the course?
neville_nobody is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2010, 06:19
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 311
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
....I work with a guy that got scrubbed from BFTS because he said "umm" too many times doing an impromtu dog and pony show..scrubbed , that's it, don't come back...strange way of picking if some has the apititude to adapt quickly to different situations.
OZBUSDRIVER.

I find that comment impossible to believe. There is absolutely NO WAY someone would get scrubbed for saying 'umm' too many times.

What usually happens when people tell you why they got scrubbed, is that they leave out a number of actual factors. I am not blaming them for this, it is a human trait to often 'hide' some of the factors, and it can be personally and professionally embarrassing to say "I wasn't good enough" or "I couldn't do it".

If you were to look at this guy/girls 'hate sheets' I'm POSITIVE you would find a trail of evidence behind the real reason they were scrubbed.

The RAAF has scrubbed people for Officer Qualities in the past (nothing to do with piloting skills) however this is exactly the same as any company that sacks a worker for inappropriate behaviour.

On the point of scrubbing people 'so close to the end', this occasionally happens because the system is trying its best to get the student through. Allowing them to continue to receive training right up to the point where it is no longer possible to continue.

The QFI's are (for the VAST MAJORITY) not the 'old school' QFI's of 20 years ago. All are trying to get the students through, but as mentioned by CSD, the RAAF demands the best, so it is a hard course that requires meeting a certain level in a certain time, no apologies are made for this.

In the civil world, companies will keep taking your money no matter how bad you are; I know of one company that continued to take money for a student who took in excess of 50 hours to go SOLO.

The one thing you can be sure of, is that it is never 'one thing' that causes people to fail. They fail because of a repeated inability to make the grade.

With all due respect to your work mate, I would not believe that he got scrubbed for too many 'ummms'
allthecoolnamesarego is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2010, 06:36
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Your Grandma's house
Age: 40
Posts: 1,387
Received 8 Likes on 2 Posts
Hey everyone, let's play pick the current/ex RAAFies

I'm just waiting for the best of the best comments, I guess they're implied. Cue, the 'you're just jealous' comments.

The ADF is not training civil pilots.
Thank God! The traffic jam at the holding point would be HUGE!!!!

Hey elwood,

I know and work with guys who were scrubbed from all three arms of the forces. Having spoken to some of them and others in regards to the level of difficulty and methods of training, I do not think you will have any problems, as you got through to PC-9's and judging by your hours, past the IF stage.

I am not sure how long you had been in the RAAF, or whether you had done any flying previous to Flight Screening, but civillian flying, is markedly different from the RAAF environment. The commercial pressure will be something alien to you, but nothing you can't get used to. Flying in a straight line vs screaming up the Avon valley...they are vastly different, horses for courses. I'd much prefer to do the straight line thing, all things considered...

Even though the PC-9 is a crap platform for preparing you for the RAAF's real aircraft, it's still a much better platform for learning IF than a 30 year old duchess.
This is the difference I am talking about. That 30 year old duchess at the flying school won't be a shade on a PC-9, but it will more than likely be the nicest GA machine you will fly until you start flying twins or get into the airlines.

Just remember, there is a big difference between wanting to fly and wanting to fly for the RAAF...

I wish you all the best

j3

Last edited by j3pipercub; 21st Apr 2010 at 06:59.
j3pipercub is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.