Final flight of VH-NGA
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Truth Boy where in any report does it say the gear was down due to a hydraulic failure on impact, regardless of it being a common Occurrence in the plethora of westwind water ditchings. No need to speculate with unsubstantiated information. Best left to the final report.
Regards
Regards
Hey Mr 'Under the Radar'.......
Did you see this or were U just 'guessin'...??
From the 60 mins promo site...copied direct to these forums for experts to ponder over...we bring you the troo and dramatic story of......
"DoomedFriday, March 5, 2010
Reporter: Michael Usher
Producer: Phil Goyen
Imagine what it would be like in those last awful seconds before a plane crash.
Well strap yourself in, you're about to take that white-knuckle ride, sharing the final, terrifying moments of Pel-Air jet November Gulf Alpha.
Late last year, the jet plunged into the Pacific in ..."
Thats right!! November GULF Alpha......so much for the veracity of 60mins...or seconds....or wotever.....
Did you see this or were U just 'guessin'...??
From the 60 mins promo site...copied direct to these forums for experts to ponder over...we bring you the troo and dramatic story of......
"DoomedFriday, March 5, 2010
Reporter: Michael Usher
Producer: Phil Goyen
Imagine what it would be like in those last awful seconds before a plane crash.
Well strap yourself in, you're about to take that white-knuckle ride, sharing the final, terrifying moments of Pel-Air jet November Gulf Alpha.
Late last year, the jet plunged into the Pacific in ..."
Thats right!! November GULF Alpha......so much for the veracity of 60mins...or seconds....or wotever.....
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Can a Westwind carry more fuel than NGA had on this flight as well as six POB plus equipment without exceeding weight limits? Was the Westwind carrying a maximum load?
Also, I believe the "island reserve" is mandatory for charter flights, but not for "Aerial Work" flights which medivacs usually are. (within Australia)
Maybe this is a case of stretching the equipment to it's limits and having minimum margins.
Maybe another case of having "financial speculators" (managers who have no technical knowledge) who have too much influence on operational matters. The Chief pilot is supposed to sort this out, but he is usually the meat in the sandwich, and has to deal with forces that are much more powerful than he is.
Saving money can destroy aviation companies.
Also, I believe the "island reserve" is mandatory for charter flights, but not for "Aerial Work" flights which medivacs usually are. (within Australia)
Maybe this is a case of stretching the equipment to it's limits and having minimum margins.
Maybe another case of having "financial speculators" (managers who have no technical knowledge) who have too much influence on operational matters. The Chief pilot is supposed to sort this out, but he is usually the meat in the sandwich, and has to deal with forces that are much more powerful than he is.
Saving money can destroy aviation companies.
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nga
"island reserve" is mandatory for charter flights, but not for "Aerial Work" flights which medivacs usually are. (within Australia)
Can a Westwind carry more fuel than NGA had on this flight as well as six POB plus equipment without exceeding weight limits? Was the Westwind carrying a maximum load?
Correct Bushy! your eluding path is not wrong.
Can a Westwind carry more fuel than NGA had on this flight as well as six POB plus equipment without exceeding weight limits? Was the Westwind carrying a maximum load?
Correct Bushy! your eluding path is not wrong.
Sprucegoose
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The Chief pilot is supposed to sort this out, but he is usually the meat in the sandwich, and has to deal with forces that are much more powerful than he is.
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the main point is why they didn't plan to Noumea in the first place. This is something the media totally missed the point on. Just maybe the strict laws the French apply there did not allow NGA to even plan it in the first place?
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To whiskey Oscar golf.
The fusulage snapped at the rear bulk head taking many hydraulic lines with it.If that isn't a hydraulic failure I don't know what is. In a previose life I worked on westwinds for over 10 years. In a situation like this it is not at all suprising that the gear free fell down after impact. So please don't talk crap
The fusulage snapped at the rear bulk head taking many hydraulic lines with it.If that isn't a hydraulic failure I don't know what is. In a previose life I worked on westwinds for over 10 years. In a situation like this it is not at all suprising that the gear free fell down after impact. So please don't talk crap
I think CASA will have a lot to answer for when the report is finally published on this one.As there will be when some accident of the future is put down to pilot fatigue.Approving all this fatigue management bulls#$t instead of applying the laws of the land as they exist in the form of CAO 48.
The only saving grace for them would be a political cover up of the ATSB report by the government.
The only saving grace for them would be a political cover up of the ATSB report by the government.
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I'm wondering if all of the kerfuffle about young James would have occured if he hadn't been a bit of a poster boy.
One thing is for sure. CASA are the one s who granted the AOC.
CASA have regulatory oversight over the AOC holder.
I'd be wondering what Pelairs check and training system is like.
I'd be posing questions to the Ops side of things and in particular why don't Pelair go to Noumea any more? Maybe something to do with landing costs etc.
The PIC is being hung out to dry with very little support.
For the record.... he was following SOPs that are applicable to that particular operator QED.
Swiss cheese my friends, you won't find a better example.
One thing is for sure. CASA are the one s who granted the AOC.
CASA have regulatory oversight over the AOC holder.
I'd be wondering what Pelairs check and training system is like.
I'd be posing questions to the Ops side of things and in particular why don't Pelair go to Noumea any more? Maybe something to do with landing costs etc.
The PIC is being hung out to dry with very little support.
For the record.... he was following SOPs that are applicable to that particular operator QED.
Swiss cheese my friends, you won't find a better example.
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Swiss cheese my friends, you won't find a better example.
Crap weather at Norfolk and no alternate are bloody big holes in the cheese.
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Hi guys,
Bushy, hope I can answer some of your questions...
for my 2 bobs worth , I have 3000+ hours in the Westwind, both 1 & 2 ), and have done LOTS of overwater flights....longest single sector being 1272nm....doing this 3 or 4 days per week.
The WW could happily depart BNE with 2 crew, 8 pax, bags a little freight, and go BNE-Kieta and carry either Port Moresby/Rabaul/Kavieng as the alternate...and for the disbelievers who are type rated, and think Im not, in certain temps, we did 0 flap due second segment.....that should answer yr question....but to be fair, we had a low basic weight, and I dont know what NGA's was.
We carried freight or 8-10 pax....and also the odd medivac which were normally premmie babies or nasty mine accidents, and carried life jackets PLUS a couple of rafts INSIDE the cabin...tight fit ...no..but space was used very efficiently...F/o used to do a FULL safety demo before each departure showing how to use jacket, and where rafts were kept etc..
We had an AOC plus an Ops manual. So the line guys had a good idea on how to do things....and this was the 1980's.....
So what has changed re oceanic flights..?
As far as Pelair is concerned, the C&t guys are good, CP used to be good, but manuals and ops procedures let down by CASA.....I am sure there are a few ex AN F-28 and B-200 Norfolk Is guys reading this and thinking of their days going into Norfolk Is with its rapidly changing Wx conditions...and " what on earth was he thinking"...sure he didnt have enough fuel, but was it his first time ?... what exactly does the Ops manual say ?...and Im NOT taking ANY info 60 idiots has to say..... was there a problem getting fuel into the tip tanks????..remember those "pull sticks".....maybe JMac and a few others at CASA will have to make sure that Island holding is considered for all ops.......as for Ops into Islands...how about a few opinions from guys who used to fly the Chieftans from Pt Macq to Lord Howe....I would think they would have had fuel consumption plus numerous options planned every 30 mins......but at the end of the day, they did ALL get out..which is good..
Bushy, hope I can answer some of your questions...
for my 2 bobs worth , I have 3000+ hours in the Westwind, both 1 & 2 ), and have done LOTS of overwater flights....longest single sector being 1272nm....doing this 3 or 4 days per week.
The WW could happily depart BNE with 2 crew, 8 pax, bags a little freight, and go BNE-Kieta and carry either Port Moresby/Rabaul/Kavieng as the alternate...and for the disbelievers who are type rated, and think Im not, in certain temps, we did 0 flap due second segment.....that should answer yr question....but to be fair, we had a low basic weight, and I dont know what NGA's was.
We carried freight or 8-10 pax....and also the odd medivac which were normally premmie babies or nasty mine accidents, and carried life jackets PLUS a couple of rafts INSIDE the cabin...tight fit ...no..but space was used very efficiently...F/o used to do a FULL safety demo before each departure showing how to use jacket, and where rafts were kept etc..
We had an AOC plus an Ops manual. So the line guys had a good idea on how to do things....and this was the 1980's.....
So what has changed re oceanic flights..?
As far as Pelair is concerned, the C&t guys are good, CP used to be good, but manuals and ops procedures let down by CASA.....I am sure there are a few ex AN F-28 and B-200 Norfolk Is guys reading this and thinking of their days going into Norfolk Is with its rapidly changing Wx conditions...and " what on earth was he thinking"...sure he didnt have enough fuel, but was it his first time ?... what exactly does the Ops manual say ?...and Im NOT taking ANY info 60 idiots has to say..... was there a problem getting fuel into the tip tanks????..remember those "pull sticks".....maybe JMac and a few others at CASA will have to make sure that Island holding is considered for all ops.......as for Ops into Islands...how about a few opinions from guys who used to fly the Chieftans from Pt Macq to Lord Howe....I would think they would have had fuel consumption plus numerous options planned every 30 mins......but at the end of the day, they did ALL get out..which is good..
The fusulage snapped at the rear bulk head taking many hydraulic lines with it.If that isn't a hydraulic failure I don't know what is. In a previose life I worked on westwinds for over 10 years. In a situation like this it is not at all suprising that the gear free fell down after impact. So please don't talk crap
Dr
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Just been thinking more about this scenario and what would you do in a similar situation.
the TAF was
(the one before it was quite friendly however)
By my rough estimates at the point they received wx advice (904pm local) they were approximately 312nm or a bit more from Norfolk and around 360nm or so from Noumea. They are now faced with BKN at 1000 and well below the Alternate Minima, without carrying an alternate, yet still with 1hr 20 or more from the flame out (and several climbs so maybe a lot more cruise time), so they were at that point well within in striking range of Noumea plus reserves.
Why would they press on and not divert?
Why try to hide the fuel emergency from ATC and the UNICOM? They may have been able to add some clarity. If they had at the point the weather was passed to them would they have headed the advice to divert then or kept going? Did they realise they had a fuel emergency prior to TOD?
Why were they not thinking clearly about this? Fatigue perhaps? Or just far too brave!
More questions...........
the TAF was
TAF AMD TAF AMD YSNF 180803Z 1808/1824 26008KT 9999 BKN010 FM181500 16012KT 9999 -SHRA BKN010 RMK
By my rough estimates at the point they received wx advice (904pm local) they were approximately 312nm or a bit more from Norfolk and around 360nm or so from Noumea. They are now faced with BKN at 1000 and well below the Alternate Minima, without carrying an alternate, yet still with 1hr 20 or more from the flame out (and several climbs so maybe a lot more cruise time), so they were at that point well within in striking range of Noumea plus reserves.
Why would they press on and not divert?
Why try to hide the fuel emergency from ATC and the UNICOM? They may have been able to add some clarity. If they had at the point the weather was passed to them would they have headed the advice to divert then or kept going? Did they realise they had a fuel emergency prior to TOD?
Why were they not thinking clearly about this? Fatigue perhaps? Or just far too brave!
More questions...........
Same old questions being dragged out over and over again! 
The lives of many people have been turned on their heads, and this continued questioning and speculation is unhelpful and just plain disrespectful to those involved.
The lives of many people have been turned on their heads, and this continued questioning and speculation is unhelpful and just plain disrespectful to those involved.
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"arawa" TY for yr input I'd be very surprised if the WW couldn't have done this task with full gas & the pax/gear they had to carry.
Hey 'jaba' these are very good Q's & no doubt CASA have asked as much a few times. I'd say that "press-on-itis" was a part of this as it has been for a lot of us right from day one of flying in CMD even in a C172 VFR. It's 'she'll be right mate' we'll get in, that thought is very real in a commercial world!
I believe that the French CASA might have had some past issues with PelAir (call it a hunch) & this particular flight didn't consider it as an ALT again possibly to commercial pressure/s. Who knows we on the outside can only guess to some degree & after all this is just a rumor site but even if there where some restrictions to PelAir operating into French New Cal one could always declare a mercy flight & you can pretty much do what ya bloody like to save life & limb. Just the thought of arriving at Norfolk with no options other than to land would send shivers up my spine. Hindsight is a wonderful thing & am sure the Capt would have diverted to New Cal when it was starting to look ugly but the thought of having to explain the mess they would have ended up in had they diverted to the PelAir, the French authorities and not to mention the cost blow out would have been an awful lot of pressure besides the end result of having to ditch would have been a long way from the Capt's mind at the time.
At the end of the day we weren't there, we all sit here in the comfort of our homes/offices & 'pretend' we are at the controls on such an ill fated flight, lets hope that we can ALL learn from this guys mistakes for a safer future.
More to come am sure, good & bad
Wmk2
Thanks
I'd be very surprised if the WW couldn't have done this task with full gas & the pax/gear they had to carry.Hey 'jaba' these are very good Q's & no doubt CASA have asked as much a few times. I'd say that "press-on-itis" was a part of this as it has been for a lot of us right from day one of flying in CMD even in a C172 VFR. It's 'she'll be right mate' we'll get in, that thought is very real in a commercial world!
I believe that the French CASA might have had some past issues with PelAir (call it a hunch) & this particular flight didn't consider it as an ALT again possibly to commercial pressure/s. Who knows we on the outside can only guess to some degree & after all this is just a rumor site but even if there where some restrictions to PelAir operating into French New Cal one could always declare a mercy flight & you can pretty much do what ya bloody like to save life & limb. Just the thought of arriving at Norfolk with no options other than to land would send shivers up my spine. Hindsight is a wonderful thing & am sure the Capt would have diverted to New Cal when it was starting to look ugly but the thought of having to explain the mess they would have ended up in had they diverted to the PelAir, the French authorities and not to mention the cost blow out would have been an awful lot of pressure besides the end result of having to ditch would have been a long way from the Capt's mind at the time.
At the end of the day we weren't there, we all sit here in the comfort of our homes/offices & 'pretend' we are at the controls on such an ill fated flight, lets hope that we can ALL learn from this guys mistakes for a safer future.
More to come am sure, good & bad
Wmk2
Thanks
Couple of questions that were asked of the patient and husband at the end of the show lastnight.
Chat: Bernie and Gary Currall
minfuel asks: Did you receive any briefing and instructions from the crew prior to the aircraft ditching? Furthermore did you receive a proper safety briefing from the crew prior to departure?
Gary: We received a very brief explanation how to operate the emergency exit from the Doctor before we departed. The co-pilot told us we would ditch and the doctor handed out life jackets and placed two life rafts in the aisle of the aircraft. That’s about the only instruction we got.
arfur asks: Did the captain assisted you getting off the plane as it seems a little odd that he appeared to jump "ship" ......as you mentioned that he ran past you ?
Gary: The pilot was the first to exit the plane. As far as I'm aware he didn't assist anybody.
Chat: Bernie and Gary Currall
minfuel asks: Did you receive any briefing and instructions from the crew prior to the aircraft ditching? Furthermore did you receive a proper safety briefing from the crew prior to departure?
Gary: We received a very brief explanation how to operate the emergency exit from the Doctor before we departed. The co-pilot told us we would ditch and the doctor handed out life jackets and placed two life rafts in the aisle of the aircraft. That’s about the only instruction we got.
arfur asks: Did the captain assisted you getting off the plane as it seems a little odd that he appeared to jump "ship" ......as you mentioned that he ran past you ?
Gary: The pilot was the first to exit the plane. As far as I'm aware he didn't assist anybody.
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Truth Boy, not wanting to get into this as it does seem rather pointless, but yes there does appear to be a snapped airframe. This may well have sheared the hydraulic lines. Did this snapped airframe occur because the landing gear was down when it hit the water? Or did the gear come down after impact? I don't know, and as far as I can tell no report has, as yet shown anything either way. So until we have the final report, anything said by you in this regard is unsubstantiated speculation and helpful to no one. Sorry for again speaking "crap" but I'd rather have the experts unbiased view.
Regards
Regards
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Actually good point. The nose looks unlocked but if the gear was down as you suggest it may have been unlocked by the force of the water. Time will tell but expierience tells me that the gear was most likely up.