Five mile final
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Five mile final
Has anybody noticed a practice in the last few years of people thinking they can push in or misstakenly think they have the rite of way by calling five mile final early? Mostly charter people but I've had Dash 8's take 4 minutes to fly a five mile final, now I know they can fly slow but 4 minutes? Should it be pointed out to those who do it's not the right thing? Has anybody noticed this themselves? How long should it take to fly 5 miles on approach in a Dash or a Kingair for instance? The habit seems to be spreading from heavier twins right down to some of the harder to understand students who put "Number 1" after everything they say in the circuit from joining five mile to downwind. 
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If they are calling 5mile final an aircraft which is already in the circuit who has right of way should usually be able to complete their circuit and land.
It is simply a matter of communication so that you both know where each other is (though having flown around PCK/MAV etc I understand this can be difficult at times). I quite commonly cut circuits short or extended them depending on what positions we were in relation to each other, or if i were on the straight in approach, try to organize suitable separation with aircraft in the circuit without pushing my way in...
It is simply a matter of communication so that you both know where each other is (though having flown around PCK/MAV etc I understand this can be difficult at times). I quite commonly cut circuits short or extended them depending on what positions we were in relation to each other, or if i were on the straight in approach, try to organize suitable separation with aircraft in the circuit without pushing my way in...
Last edited by 777WakeTurbz; 28th Feb 2010 at 01:36. Reason: Incorrect numbers stated...
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Whilst i've been guilty of landing straight-in in before an aircraft already established in the circuit, it has always been done by asking if the right of way aircraft would mind and by adjusting speed to ensure no conflict. And if it is company traffic we arrange (in a CTAF situation) to have the most expensive aircraft land first if its a tie.
I've had the same right of way problem with a F100 crew reporting their distance and estimate two to three minutes ahead of us in a B200 so that we end up slowing down to arrange separation - only to find that we arrived in the circuit simultaneously - they could have just let us go to get out of their way....
I've had the same right of way problem with a F100 crew reporting their distance and estimate two to three minutes ahead of us in a B200 so that we end up slowing down to arrange separation - only to find that we arrived in the circuit simultaneously - they could have just let us go to get out of their way....
Here's something to do just to have a bit of fun, ask those Qlink/Rex/Skytrans lads when they give their eta if that eta is for a 5 mile final or for landing.... Wait for the pregnant silence... Then the response. After noting eta, makes sure watch is calibrated with atomic clock on tso gps and wait. If their call is more than 2 mintues out, ask them again for their position, pointing out they were meant to be there 2 minutes ago. Then you can sit back and laugh at the garbled/no response from the crews. If it happens enough, they might get the idea
On the subject of right away, I'll never forget the day I heard....
Q-link: All traffic Bundy etc etc (standard call, followed by) All traffic, go ahead positon and intentions...
Anon: last time I checked, you guys weren't brisbane centre...
j3
On the subject of right away, I'll never forget the day I heard....
Q-link: All traffic Bundy etc etc (standard call, followed by) All traffic, go ahead positon and intentions...
Anon: last time I checked, you guys weren't brisbane centre...
j3
j3pipercub
You have hit the nail on the head there. You can actually hear the PNF's brain ticking over as you ask them to clarify what position they are giving an ETA for. Usually after an awkward pause you hear the other voice on the flightdeck meekly explain what's actually going on.
I just wish they were honest from the beginning. Feel free to give me the time the GPS/FMC says for the "Foxtrot" waypoint but at least tell me that's what it is.... five miles away is not "The Circuit." Also when you start tracking for a 15 mile final RNAV approach please update your ETA because I'm pretty sure it's going to be different from the one you gave me when you were tracking direct to the airport...... (rant over)
You have hit the nail on the head there. You can actually hear the PNF's brain ticking over as you ask them to clarify what position they are giving an ETA for. Usually after an awkward pause you hear the other voice on the flightdeck meekly explain what's actually going on.
I just wish they were honest from the beginning. Feel free to give me the time the GPS/FMC says for the "Foxtrot" waypoint but at least tell me that's what it is.... five miles away is not "The Circuit." Also when you start tracking for a 15 mile final RNAV approach please update your ETA because I'm pretty sure it's going to be different from the one you gave me when you were tracking direct to the airport...... (rant over)
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This actually happened to me recently, the weather was overcast at about 10,000 feet.
Me: Orange traffic XXX taxying for SY runway 11.
RPT Operator: We're just coming up on a 15 mile final do you mind waiting for us?
Me: (a little perplexed) Say again? (Just in case I had miss heard).
RPT Operator: We're on a 15 mile final do you mind waiting for us?
Me: (A little annoyed and mumbling) In that case taxying for runway 29!
Got airborne with max rate of climb to the west, 1000 feet above lowest safe before turning, passed them still 10 miles to the East of Orange! So glad I didn't wait...
I only expect two things of professional pilots, well all pilots actually!
-Have an accurate estimate
-Be where you say you are!
Me: Orange traffic XXX taxying for SY runway 11.
RPT Operator: We're just coming up on a 15 mile final do you mind waiting for us?
Me: (a little perplexed) Say again? (Just in case I had miss heard).
RPT Operator: We're on a 15 mile final do you mind waiting for us?
Me: (A little annoyed and mumbling) In that case taxying for runway 29!
Got airborne with max rate of climb to the west, 1000 feet above lowest safe before turning, passed them still 10 miles to the East of Orange! So glad I didn't wait...
I only expect two things of professional pilots, well all pilots actually!
-Have an accurate estimate
-Be where you say you are!
I get around a bit, and have to say that my experience does not agree with the sentiments presented here.
I mostly find the regional RPT crews to be very professional and courteous and am always happy to facilitate their circuit entry and landing because it is no skin off my nose to do so, but there is nothing I enjoy more than pitting the speed range and flexibility in the circuit of the Bo against their SOPs!
Been around too long and know the rules well enough not to be bullied by someone with an over inflated view of their own importance.
Dr
PS:
Calls like those don't bother me - I just ignore them!
I mostly find the regional RPT crews to be very professional and courteous and am always happy to facilitate their circuit entry and landing because it is no skin off my nose to do so, but there is nothing I enjoy more than pitting the speed range and flexibility in the circuit of the Bo against their SOPs!
Been around too long and know the rules well enough not to be bullied by someone with an over inflated view of their own importance.
Dr
PS:
Q-link: All traffic Bundy etc etc (standard call, followed by) All traffic, go ahead positon and intentions...
RPT Operator: We're just coming up on a 15 mile final do you mind waiting for us?
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 27th Feb 2010 at 10:23.
Sprucegoose
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I just wish they were honest from the beginning. Feel free to give me the time the GPS/FMC says for the "Foxtrot" waypoint but at least tell me that's what it is.... five miles away is not "The Circuit."
On the sublect of circuit entry, I always try and fit in with those around me and nearly always fly a five mile final (where practical). If I am conflicting with traffic using the opposite (in to wind runway), I will always let that traffic go first!
It's not really that hard, is it?
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Accuracy, Common sense, and Courteousy and everything works out fine...
Best one I have heard was up near Kerikeri in New Zealand.
AirNZ Dash 8: Any traffic, positions and intentions.
Anon: Left hand seat, 6 foot 2, intentions honourable.
Best one I have heard was up near Kerikeri in New Zealand.
AirNZ Dash 8: Any traffic, positions and intentions.
Anon: Left hand seat, 6 foot 2, intentions honourable.
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Aerobatics in Over the field?
I was coming into an aerodrome and on 5 mile final and called it. Then an aerobatic plane called taxi for aero's over the field down to 300ft. He had taken off a minute after the call. Then asked me to stay clear for his aerobatics???
Shouldnt he do aeros somewhere else?
Im not holding for him when im established
Shouldnt he do aeros somewhere else?
Im not holding for him when im established
Last edited by YMEN; 27th Feb 2010 at 13:26. Reason: Bad english
777 Whatever,
Not so. Read CAO 82.3 and 82.5 and you will realise why at least some aircraft call at 5 mile final (and 15nm from the airport).
They really aren't supposed to broadcast until 3 mile final but have to be "established" by 5nm, so the 5mile call is pointless and should be broadcast with inbound intentions at 10nm or 30nm.
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 28th Feb 2010 at 01:56. Reason: Toned-down criticism of allegedly sozzled 777! :)
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Correct you are Capn Bloggs, I have completely botched the numbers on that one and apologize profusely. Post corrected. Serves me right for posting after a few drinks... 
You were correct 777 in regards to a <5700 typical light aircraft with the established by 5 broadcast at 3nm and 1nm.
For a multi crew commuter category aircraft and above a 15 mile call and established at 5nm is required.
GG
For a multi crew commuter category aircraft and above a 15 mile call and established at 5nm is required.
GG
A Dash 8 configured for landing will be doing something like 120 knots, so about 2.5 minutes to fly a 5 mile final. Of course they may have a 20 knot headwind in which case 3 minutes might be closer to the mark.
It all depends on your box. There's no point blindly reciting the numbers on the box if your box gives ETAs based on current ground speed. I have a method for giving a Foxtrot time based on our SOPs (i.e, approach speed profile) and the box's time for India, it's usually right to within 30 seconds.
Originally Posted by Howard Hughes
I don't know why people don't just scroll down to position Mike, that's what I do, you can't get a more accurate estimate than that!
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It's not really that hard, is it?
When a highish performance aircraft in descending into a circuit, the estimate is exactly that, remember they are deccelerating from say 250+ knots to 120, this will effect their estimate considerably, most crews will add a minute or two to the initial estimate, because this will be closer to actual.
Why is everyone doing straight in approaches ?,
Because ICAO, most CP's I'd reckon, and Jepp/ASA also believe runway aligned and constant profile approaches are safer.
When ever possible puting the runway in the windsceen IMHO provides added safety and economy.
If you are in the circuit and wish to be difficult, say no, do not accomodate the arriving aircraft, I believe this to be bad airmanship and I am pretty certain it will bite you in the bum at some stage.
Josh,
In day VMC, SI's are flown mainly to save money. Anybody pushing the safety line is barking up the wrong tree. There are also plenty of times a downwind join will be cheaper than going out to 5nm final. Flying a circuit once in a while does wonders for one's currency.
Everybody has the same priority - so no, I do not agree that a SI should get it. The rules, unfortunately, are not totally clear, but if someone's on DW, then they have it over somebody outside 5nm final IMO.
A crew of one of these types of AC, as Aeroscat has pointed out, should be able to get their estimate to within a minute or so. That's what they are paid for. An FMS does make life easier, but a join-the-dots box can still be used to give an accurate estimate.
In day VMC, SI's are flown mainly to save money. Anybody pushing the safety line is barking up the wrong tree. There are also plenty of times a downwind join will be cheaper than going out to 5nm final. Flying a circuit once in a while does wonders for one's currency.
Everybody has the same priority - so no, I do not agree that a SI should get it. The rules, unfortunately, are not totally clear, but if someone's on DW, then they have it over somebody outside 5nm final IMO.
When a highish performance aircraft in descending into a circuit, the estimate is exactly that, remember they are decelerating from say 250+ knots to 120, this will effect their estimate considerably, most crews will add a minute or two to the initial estimate, because this will be closer to actual.
You know, I've never really seen problems caused by people flying a 5 mile final. I'll do whatever minimises my track miles (not for financial reasons, just because I want to get home), more often than not this results in joining cross-wind or down-wind, but if a 5 mile final suits, I'll fly one.
I know that circuit traffic have right of way, but if I'm in the circuit and someone else is going via a 5 mile final, I'll slow down or extend downwind if they are ahead of me in terms of track miles to run, and if I'm going via a 5 mile final, I find the circuit traffic are always accommodating if I'm going to reach the threshold first. Everyone else seems to act the same way and it all works pretty well.
I know that circuit traffic have right of way, but if I'm in the circuit and someone else is going via a 5 mile final, I'll slow down or extend downwind if they are ahead of me in terms of track miles to run, and if I'm going via a 5 mile final, I find the circuit traffic are always accommodating if I'm going to reach the threshold first. Everyone else seems to act the same way and it all works pretty well.
When a highish performance aircraft in descending into a circuit, the estimate is exactly that, remember they are deccelerating from say 250+ knots to 120, this will effect their estimate considerably, most crews will add a minute or two to the initial estimate, because this will be closer to actual.
If you are in the circuit and wish to be difficult, say no, do not accomodate the arriving aircraft, I believe this to be bad airmanship and I am pretty certain it will bite you in the bum at some stage.
j3
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Captbloggs,
Sure, you're entitled to your opinion, but when ICAO, Jepp/ASA and CASA all seem to believe that SI are safer and my personal opinion also tends to agree, SI's it is.
Sure SI's can also save money, not when the prevailing conditions are giving you a tailwind on the way in, can add quite a few track miles.
Sorry, do not understand the statement, "get it" ?
I thought CCT traffic had right of way.
Bet my left nut Captain D Smith can lay a hand on the statistics.
I've done many SI into airports and every single time I have been able to negotiate an amicable spot in the traffic pattern.
What are/is the logic, facts and/or statistics behind your argument ?.
"Barking up the wrong tree", says who ?.
If some here are of the opinion that some "Big" aeroplane pilots barge into the CCT via a SI, without consideration of others in the CCT, that sounds like a whole other issue. Ring their CP and complain.
I love SI and use them when ever possible, the only downside I can see with a SI is for S/E turbine aircraft, will often put you below the glide distance to the aerodrome.
Sure, you're entitled to your opinion, but when ICAO, Jepp/ASA and CASA all seem to believe that SI are safer and my personal opinion also tends to agree, SI's it is.
Sure SI's can also save money, not when the prevailing conditions are giving you a tailwind on the way in, can add quite a few track miles.
so no, I do not agree that a SI should get it
Everybody has the same priority
Bet my left nut Captain D Smith can lay a hand on the statistics.
I've done many SI into airports and every single time I have been able to negotiate an amicable spot in the traffic pattern.
What are/is the logic, facts and/or statistics behind your argument ?.
"Barking up the wrong tree", says who ?.
If some here are of the opinion that some "Big" aeroplane pilots barge into the CCT via a SI, without consideration of others in the CCT, that sounds like a whole other issue. Ring their CP and complain.
I love SI and use them when ever possible, the only downside I can see with a SI is for S/E turbine aircraft, will often put you below the glide distance to the aerodrome.
Last edited by Josh Cox; 28th Feb 2010 at 09:00.