Mirage 111 at Wangaratta
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
P.S. Is RAAF News still called 'F-18s and Doggies Monthly'?
Unfortunately easier to get a picture of the dog airborne than the pig these days! No doubt soon to be replaced by that Super pig.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Obvious
Age: 78
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Psst. Anybody want an ex-Liightning Attitude Indicator?
Ferranti Mk6. Used to run it inverter driven in my super sailplane. Works well.
A$200 and it's yours.
PM me.
A$200 and it's yours.
PM me.
Originally Posted by DBTW
Not sure why a ThunderCity website Lightning was brought up when talking about a Wangaratta parked up Mirage? Fairly sure there is no connection between the two aircraft,
Depending where and when A3-42 served, there's a strong likelyhood that it may well have actually shared ramp space or even airspace with this Lightning F.6 that Thundercity operates, ZU-BEW (ex-XR773) served with 74 Sqn RAF at Tenagh from 1967 to 1971, and took part in many RAF/RAAF exercises at Butterworth and even to Darwin.
And 40 years before, XR773 (on the left) taking off from Tenagh, then being flown by Dave Roome, who is now a well known civvie Hunter and Gnat display pilot and MD of Kemble based DeltaJets.
In my experience, some RAAF Mirage pilots were self-opinionated windbags
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So if the Mirage and the Lightning shared the same ramp in Malaysia it would be reasonable to guess there were some unofficial dogfights , which aircraft was superior ?
Originally Posted by aseanaero
So if the Mirage and the Lightning shared the same ramp in Malaysia it would be reasonable to guess there were some unofficial dogfights , which aircraft was superior ?
Despite it’s ‘steam powered’ missile weapons system, in a guns only 1 v 1, the Lightning wasn’t really outclassed until the advent of the F-15/F-16 into service in the mid-late 1970’s.
I’m sure the Mirage boys gave a good account of themselves though at times, and fun was had by all back then.
Dave Roome, as mentioned above, wrote a good article for one of the Lightning books about his tour with 74 Sqn at Tenagh.
This is an amusing paragragh he wrote about the first of the 3 dets 74 did to Aus during this time.
“We also took the Lightning to Australia, the first time in June 1969 for an exercise called Town House which was mounted in the Northern Territory and we were based at Darwin. This provided some excellent flying as the rules were few – the Base Commander was quoted by the local press as saying that, if they were to practise the defense of the area realistically, then the aircrew needed freedom and the town should ‘expect to get boomed’. Darwin was still used by the major airlines as a staging base and one sight that sticks in my mind is of a 707 taking-off whilst being over-taken by an attacking RNZAF Canberra. Giving chase were one RAAF Mirage and one Lightning, which went either side of the 707 as it pulled into it’s normal steep, noise abatement climb. The complaint of the 707 captain was met by the RAAF ATC statement to the effect that didn’t he know there was a war on?”
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Lightning From the Cockpit" by Peter Caygill
The production version, the Mirage HIC, was flown by Wg Cdr David Simmons during an exchange posting in 1960, a time when he was evaluating the Lightning with AFDS at Coltishall:
In July 1960 1 did a Lightning/ Mirage exchange with Cdt Franchi of CEAM at Mont de Marsan. 1 had three flights on the Mirage HIC, which included accelerating to 1.9 M at 36,000 ft. It turned out to be slightly disappointing as it was very noisy and shook like hell! Fuel could disappear more quickly than in a Lightning and flight times were only 25-35 minutes. In July 19611 flew to Istres to conduct a series of trials on the Mirage 1110 equipped with a Rolls-Royce Avon engine with a con-di efflux. The Australians were buying Mirages to replace their Avon-Sabres. The Avon had a better performance than the SNECMA engine (Atar), with superior specific fuel consumption. This forced SNECMA to over-speed their engines to try to match it. 1 also did one ferry trial with oversize underwing drop tanks. 1 felt as if 1 was balanced on a pinhead after take-off. 1 went round and round France and reck-oned that 1 could have flown from the UK to Cyprus without refuelling. This flight lasted 2 hours 25 minutes. The Lightning's reaction and time to height beat the lot for high-level targets, and its weapons system was better than the Mirage, but for low-level targets it had some limitations.
Trevor MacDonald-Bennett also had plenty of opportunities to assess the Mirage Ill during his first tour with 74 Squadron at Tengah in the late 1960s:
The Royal Australian Air Force at that time had Mirages based at Butterworth near Penang in Malaysia. This presented superb opportunities for reciprocal detachments with regular Lightning visits to Butterworth, and Mirages to Tengah. 1 was lucky enough to fly the two-seater a couple of times, and additionally we flew regular sorties against them. 1 found the Mirage to be a delight in terms of handling, but being a proper delta its low-speed drag characteristics were horrendous, making the need to keep speed and energy levels high in a turning scenario even more crucial than with the Lightning. This, of course, is because of the inefficient change of wing section with elevons deflected up, whereas the Lightning's separate tailplane eliminated this delta characteristic. 1 also found it a bit of a 'jack of all trades but master of none', and certainly found the huge power levels of our own steed very comforting. 1 also think our radar was superior, but they had the very real advantage of gun armament (before the reintroduction of guns on the F.6). Another surprising omission was the absence of in-flight refuelling capability, and 1 believe that the Australians found any form of significant deployment a major logistical nightmare. Notwithstanding all the above, it seemed a very simple, practical machine and was well liked by all who flew it. Maintenance-wise it left the Lightning for dead, with service-ability levels way ahead of ours in spite of the huge efforts put in by our groundcrews.
We flew everything from radar intercepts, 1 v. 1, 2 v. 2, and up to 4 v. 4 (when we had enough serviceable aircraft!), and overall we were pretty evenly matched. We had a theoretical advantage in out-and-out performance terms, but this could very easily be lost by superior flying by the opposition if we were not careful. They certainly enjoyed a better lookout, but one surprising factor was fuel consumption. Most high 'g' combat situations, even when started at high level, very quickly end up at medium levels in thicker air where more thrust is available. An unusual characteristic of the Lightning reheat system was a relatively small thrust increment of about 30 per cent above cold power. In comparison the cold power/reheat ratio of the Phantom was around 55 per cent, the Mirage being in the order of 45 per cent. Combining this with the delta-wing drag characteristics meant almost continuous use of reheat by the Mirage, whereas the Lightning could use it selectively in combination with cold power once the dogfight had reached these lower levels. The net result was very similar 'chicken out' times for both types in spite of the Mirage's apparent superior fuel capability with drop tanks fitted.
The production version, the Mirage HIC, was flown by Wg Cdr David Simmons during an exchange posting in 1960, a time when he was evaluating the Lightning with AFDS at Coltishall:
In July 1960 1 did a Lightning/ Mirage exchange with Cdt Franchi of CEAM at Mont de Marsan. 1 had three flights on the Mirage HIC, which included accelerating to 1.9 M at 36,000 ft. It turned out to be slightly disappointing as it was very noisy and shook like hell! Fuel could disappear more quickly than in a Lightning and flight times were only 25-35 minutes. In July 19611 flew to Istres to conduct a series of trials on the Mirage 1110 equipped with a Rolls-Royce Avon engine with a con-di efflux. The Australians were buying Mirages to replace their Avon-Sabres. The Avon had a better performance than the SNECMA engine (Atar), with superior specific fuel consumption. This forced SNECMA to over-speed their engines to try to match it. 1 also did one ferry trial with oversize underwing drop tanks. 1 felt as if 1 was balanced on a pinhead after take-off. 1 went round and round France and reck-oned that 1 could have flown from the UK to Cyprus without refuelling. This flight lasted 2 hours 25 minutes. The Lightning's reaction and time to height beat the lot for high-level targets, and its weapons system was better than the Mirage, but for low-level targets it had some limitations.
Trevor MacDonald-Bennett also had plenty of opportunities to assess the Mirage Ill during his first tour with 74 Squadron at Tengah in the late 1960s:
The Royal Australian Air Force at that time had Mirages based at Butterworth near Penang in Malaysia. This presented superb opportunities for reciprocal detachments with regular Lightning visits to Butterworth, and Mirages to Tengah. 1 was lucky enough to fly the two-seater a couple of times, and additionally we flew regular sorties against them. 1 found the Mirage to be a delight in terms of handling, but being a proper delta its low-speed drag characteristics were horrendous, making the need to keep speed and energy levels high in a turning scenario even more crucial than with the Lightning. This, of course, is because of the inefficient change of wing section with elevons deflected up, whereas the Lightning's separate tailplane eliminated this delta characteristic. 1 also found it a bit of a 'jack of all trades but master of none', and certainly found the huge power levels of our own steed very comforting. 1 also think our radar was superior, but they had the very real advantage of gun armament (before the reintroduction of guns on the F.6). Another surprising omission was the absence of in-flight refuelling capability, and 1 believe that the Australians found any form of significant deployment a major logistical nightmare. Notwithstanding all the above, it seemed a very simple, practical machine and was well liked by all who flew it. Maintenance-wise it left the Lightning for dead, with service-ability levels way ahead of ours in spite of the huge efforts put in by our groundcrews.
We flew everything from radar intercepts, 1 v. 1, 2 v. 2, and up to 4 v. 4 (when we had enough serviceable aircraft!), and overall we were pretty evenly matched. We had a theoretical advantage in out-and-out performance terms, but this could very easily be lost by superior flying by the opposition if we were not careful. They certainly enjoyed a better lookout, but one surprising factor was fuel consumption. Most high 'g' combat situations, even when started at high level, very quickly end up at medium levels in thicker air where more thrust is available. An unusual characteristic of the Lightning reheat system was a relatively small thrust increment of about 30 per cent above cold power. In comparison the cold power/reheat ratio of the Phantom was around 55 per cent, the Mirage being in the order of 45 per cent. Combining this with the delta-wing drag characteristics meant almost continuous use of reheat by the Mirage, whereas the Lightning could use it selectively in combination with cold power once the dogfight had reached these lower levels. The net result was very similar 'chicken out' times for both types in spite of the Mirage's apparent superior fuel capability with drop tanks fitted.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NNE of where I'd prefer
Age: 33
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does it fly
Who owns it,
Whats its future.
Who owns it,
Whats its future.
No.
Maybe a publican, former airline pilot who didn't mind an inverted look at things.
Turning answer one into a positive
Especially with the cool 70's tune at the end, sounds like Tijuana Brass or something!?
I think it's really sad that I know that.
