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Why do many "Airline" training organisations insist on flying such wide circuits?

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Why do many "Airline" training organisations insist on flying such wide circuits?

Old 14th Jan 2010, 07:33
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Why do many "Airline" training organisations insist on flying such wide circuits?

As frustrating as it is for other circuit users, I can only assume that there is a good reason why circuits are taught this way?

Im not having a go at the schools, just trying to understand their reasoning.
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 07:51
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Take longer, learn less, make more money? What other reasons?
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 08:06
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If only I knew.....

When instructing a few years back I was following an aircraft from one of these organisations in the circuit one morning. Sitting alongside me was a Widebody Skipper who was getting a bit of currency in a lighty.

As our downwind following the preceding aircraft reached some ridiculous distance, he turned to me and commented "I fly smaller bloody circuits in a 767"!

But then this same training organisation also forbid intersection takeoff's because "that's not what airlines do." Clearly the person who wrote the SOP's has never been to any major airport in the world!

Last edited by Water Wings; 14th Jan 2010 at 08:30.
 
Old 14th Jan 2010, 08:59
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I did my early training at Wellington International... we had to fly massive massive circuits so the neighbours don't cry about it. I've always had to overcome instinct to fly tight circuits at other aerodromes.

Last edited by Aerozepplin; 14th Jan 2010 at 09:36.
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 09:03
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If they're THAT big, drop inside them and land. When the inevitable complaint comes over the radio you can reply: "Oh!, I'm sorry - I thought you had departed the circuit on some sort of navigation exercise!"
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 09:10
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If they're THAT big, drop inside them and land. When the inevitable complaint comes over the radio you can reply: "Oh!, I'm sorry - I thought you had departed the circuit on some sort of navigation exercise!"
Agreed. Have seen it done and have done it myself, but usually would ask ATC first.

"Tower, can we turn inside the 747 / wide circuit" or words to that effect usually do the job. If the controller then feels they are a bit wide, they will ask them to tighten it up. It's not always something you have to persist with unless the circuit is quite busy and they need to fit in their 8 aircraft per side.
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 09:50
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It's because the instructor doesn't ask the student to assess their spacing, or if they do, don't ask them what they are going to do about it if it looks all wrong.

Seriously guys, when someone says "turning base behind the aircraft on ridiculously long final", THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG!

we had to fly massive massive circuits so the neighbours don't cry about it.
Fck em. They want to buy cheap next to the airport!
How loud is an O-320 at 1000' anyway???

Complaints like that should attract a set of low level circuits!
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 09:58
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Gee I guess none of you guys ever struggled early solo on downwind?

The airport I work at has a few schools that would fit this category and they generally aren't too bad. More often than not it depends on what level the student is at. From my days of instructing I recall most early circuit lessons the students struggled to get the pre landing checks done and the radio call on downwind completed (along with trying to fly the aeroplane). Whilst I like to keep it tight and would prompt along those lines, if I took over all the time how does the student learn? It was generally a non issue after a few lessons but still they can be busy early solo.

From an ATC perspective rarely will we tell you how to fly unless we specifically need it (ie Helicopter traffic inside the fixed wing circuit or about to leave the CTR).

Saying something can help, but a "can we tighten it up" has more effect than "am I following a 747 out there".
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 10:11
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From my days of instructing I recall most early circuit lessons the students struggled to get the pre landing checks done and the radio call on downwind completed (along with trying to fly the aeroplane)
From my days instructing, I would do the radio and checks for them, until they had the circuit OK - then increase the workload as gradually as they could handle it.
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 10:15
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As did I. The point I was trying to make is that early on they are busy doing all that stuff. Some of the closest circuits I see (and I see a lot every day) are the solo "airline" students. They aren't always the guilty ones, just the easiest target.
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 10:26
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Well they aren't ready to go solo then are they?
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 10:35
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How wide are we talking? more than a mile?
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 11:50
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They sometimes fly seriously wide , I think I could do two circuits or close to that by the time they come in
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 12:02
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Because none of their instructors have had a real engine failure in a single yet..
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 16:44
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Easy - just ask for a glide or short approach and drop inside them. You'll catch them back up in 2-3 circuits, but it's all good - it's about SA and managing your own positioning. Or ask ATC for an opposite circuit. Don't get frustrated - turn it into a lesson that's more than a takeoff, 4 left (or right) turns and a landing.
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 22:52
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I've seen some ome in on a 2-3 mile final from the circuit, I just ask for the opposite direction to what they're using at the time.
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 00:09
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Some of the a/c being used have a nice engine out quality and glide a long way further than a 172 does.......and I can imagine that they could be the cause of your stress.

They could introduce sideslip into every cct and help you out!
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 00:15
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unfortunately most of the ones I have seen are in 172s or Grobs.

They don't glide to well.
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 00:29
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Large ccts because:

1. The instructor is too busy listening to his/her own voice and thinking the student needs to have some time to listen. Talk on the ground. Instruct in the air! Practice approach and landings when it's time to practice approach and landings. Practice straight and level away from the circuit. If you, as an instructor, have something important to say, make a full stop and talk on the taxi back to the threshold.

2. The student thinks he/she needs to have a long, stabilised approach for a good landing or he/she is just enjoying the view. What a waste of money!
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 00:30
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Grob is about the only training aircraft that does glide...
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