Cloud Seeding Cessna 310 Moorabbin 1980's
A correction to post #30 here. It was VH-WRG that broke up in flight, not VH-GBC. It may not have any relevance, but it was noted some five years prior to the accident, by a cloud seeding officer at Cobar, that the left horizontal tailplane, when viewed from the rear along the extended centreline of the fuselage, appeared to have about ten degrees anhedral, instead of being dead horizontal, as was the right hand tailplane of WRG.
Twenty years after the accident, a stockman on Wilkurra Station picked up a
metal bound logbook or manual not far from the crash site.
If memory serves me right, WRG stood for West Riding Geoffrey, a combination of West Riding Pastoral Company (at Springdale in the Temora district), and the given name of the one time owner of WRG.
Twenty years after the accident, a stockman on Wilkurra Station picked up a
metal bound logbook or manual not far from the crash site.
If memory serves me right, WRG stood for West Riding Geoffrey, a combination of West Riding Pastoral Company (at Springdale in the Temora district), and the given name of the one time owner of WRG.
Last edited by Fantome; 14th Apr 2015 at 11:16.
Fantome!
Wasn't REK flying out of Perth in the late 1960's (not as a cloud-seeder, obviously)?
Wasn't REK flying out of Perth in the late 1960's (not as a cloud-seeder, obviously)?
I flew VH-REL in the early seventies for Bill Surh. What ever happened to that aircraft? So different to later 310's, especially the 'R' models it should have been a separate endorsement.
I have a picture somewhere of REL and REK over the Sydney Harbor Bridge. I think it might have been on the delivery flight. If my memory serves me correctly, I think Gordon Howe was one of the pilots. Bill eventually had a Twin Bonanza, VH-CLO on the CSIRO cloud seeding contract. I flew that too with three across the front seat and funny 'ash tray' type switches.
Bill was killed in VH-RED, Gordon long gone. Time marches on.
How can that be over forty years ago? I also wonder why nobody does this kind of work anymore.
I have a picture somewhere of REL and REK over the Sydney Harbor Bridge. I think it might have been on the delivery flight. If my memory serves me correctly, I think Gordon Howe was one of the pilots. Bill eventually had a Twin Bonanza, VH-CLO on the CSIRO cloud seeding contract. I flew that too with three across the front seat and funny 'ash tray' type switches.
Bill was killed in VH-RED, Gordon long gone. Time marches on.
How can that be over forty years ago? I also wonder why nobody does this kind of work anymore.
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How can that be over forty years ago? I also wonder why nobody does this kind of work anymore.
DRK
As in Cessna 320 "Skynight" of Southbank Aviation, Albion Park.
AFAIK was only ever a mapping camera ship. Spent considerable time in it late 60s and cross hired from MEB, late 80s
I can concur re the heater, after 3 hours at FL 250 over Adaminaby in the Snowy Mtns in the winter, the guys upfront were cooking and down the back I was suffering from frosticles.!!
AFAIK was only ever a mapping camera ship. Spent considerable time in it late 60s and cross hired from MEB, late 80s
I can concur re the heater, after 3 hours at FL 250 over Adaminaby in the Snowy Mtns in the winter, the guys upfront were cooking and down the back I was suffering from frosticles.!!
Cloud seeding in Tasmania was done at one stage in a local Mojave or a P Navajo. The contract went to Kevron Aerial Surveys, I think in the late 90s, and they used a Cessna Conquest. I don't remember the registration, but I do remember the fuss from Strahan/Queenstown residents who wanted to suit Hydro Tas for scaring away people with the extra rain and aledgedly ruining the tourism industry.
Was VH-FJW, a C320, used for survey?
Was VH-FJW, a C320, used for survey?
REL and REK over the Sydney Harbor Bridge
There was a Conquest on a cloud-seeding contract in SEQ a few years ago. The local paper quoted a memorable line from the pilot; "We fly into weather that other pilots try to avoid and then we set ourselves on fire".
Ah ha thanks Chris, my photograph is different but obviously taken on the same day. Also there is a previous post from me on seeing REL at Hamilton, I forgot about that, is it still there?
I keep hearing my old rego's on the radio but on investigating, they are all on new aeroplanes now. Second generation in more ways than one I guess.
Good to see cloud seeding still going on. The thought of flying over the ex wife's house and making it rain is quite appealing.
I keep hearing my old rego's on the radio but on investigating, they are all on new aeroplanes now. Second generation in more ways than one I guess.
Good to see cloud seeding still going on. The thought of flying over the ex wife's house and making it rain is quite appealing.
The cloud seeding in Tassie still goes on to this day. Last I heard Fugro had the contract using acetone burner type setups on a Conquest.
Cloud seeding | Hydro Tasmania
As for the SEQ seeding, it was done in the summer of 2007-08 with a PA31T from Weather Modification Inc (google it for info, American company from North Dakota), in conjuction with South African atmospheric scientists and meteorologists who used an AC690 for research runs. It was a Qld Govt funded exercise to see if rainfall could be redirected to fall in the dam catchment as at the time, the dam levels were under 20% and all the rainfall was falling on Brisbane, but not within the catchment. Not long after/during the program, the drought broke itself and the dams were full again and the rest is history.
I personally haven't cloud seeded in Australia, but I did work in Saudi Arabia flying C90s on Rain enhancement programs from 2008-2010 with Weather Modification Inc. and in Canada in the 2009 and 2010 seasons on Hail Suppression missions. The most amazing, interesting and challenging flying I have done to date. I think I may be one of the few pilots in Australia to fly into an LP Supercell on purpose, which I think is a little bit cool. Some may call it stupid, but to you King Air pilots out there, I can assure you those aircraft are built like a brick ****house in the wing department.
Supercell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is what an LP Supercell looks like up close.
Most top seeding missions (using ejectable AgI flares) would consist of many penetrations into the 'feeder cells', the crisp popcorn looking part of the main cell where the growth occurs. This was to deliver the seeding agent directly into the updrafts of the cell.
On this particular LP supercell, we made one penetration and got pounded so violently, it is indescribable, only to say it is severe turbulence in the true sense of the word and like a mule is kicking your seat constantly. This was done in the very early stages of its growth so we were not aware what it was going to develop into, and therefore had no idea it would be so violent inside, it looked like any other storm cell we had seeded before, just more bold and crisp in dimension. About 1 hour later we heard more about the cell when our ground meteorologists were saying that it was the coolest cell they had seen in 15 years of weather mod and then told us what it had become. We didn't make any other penetrations on that cell and seeded it completely from clear air just banking the aircraft belly against the side of the cloud and shooting in the seeding agent from there.
This is a project on the east side of the Canadian Rockies in the Calgary-Red Deer area, and is funded 100% by insurance companies to reduce the number of claims due to hail damage each season. It is still the only wholly privately funded cloud seeding project on the planet.
Sorry to blab on and that it is a slight thread drift, but there is very few pilots who even know what cloud seeding is let alone ones I can fully share my experiences with.
Cloud seeding | Hydro Tasmania
As for the SEQ seeding, it was done in the summer of 2007-08 with a PA31T from Weather Modification Inc (google it for info, American company from North Dakota), in conjuction with South African atmospheric scientists and meteorologists who used an AC690 for research runs. It was a Qld Govt funded exercise to see if rainfall could be redirected to fall in the dam catchment as at the time, the dam levels were under 20% and all the rainfall was falling on Brisbane, but not within the catchment. Not long after/during the program, the drought broke itself and the dams were full again and the rest is history.
I personally haven't cloud seeded in Australia, but I did work in Saudi Arabia flying C90s on Rain enhancement programs from 2008-2010 with Weather Modification Inc. and in Canada in the 2009 and 2010 seasons on Hail Suppression missions. The most amazing, interesting and challenging flying I have done to date. I think I may be one of the few pilots in Australia to fly into an LP Supercell on purpose, which I think is a little bit cool. Some may call it stupid, but to you King Air pilots out there, I can assure you those aircraft are built like a brick ****house in the wing department.
Supercell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is what an LP Supercell looks like up close.
Most top seeding missions (using ejectable AgI flares) would consist of many penetrations into the 'feeder cells', the crisp popcorn looking part of the main cell where the growth occurs. This was to deliver the seeding agent directly into the updrafts of the cell.
On this particular LP supercell, we made one penetration and got pounded so violently, it is indescribable, only to say it is severe turbulence in the true sense of the word and like a mule is kicking your seat constantly. This was done in the very early stages of its growth so we were not aware what it was going to develop into, and therefore had no idea it would be so violent inside, it looked like any other storm cell we had seeded before, just more bold and crisp in dimension. About 1 hour later we heard more about the cell when our ground meteorologists were saying that it was the coolest cell they had seen in 15 years of weather mod and then told us what it had become. We didn't make any other penetrations on that cell and seeded it completely from clear air just banking the aircraft belly against the side of the cloud and shooting in the seeding agent from there.
This is a project on the east side of the Canadian Rockies in the Calgary-Red Deer area, and is funded 100% by insurance companies to reduce the number of claims due to hail damage each season. It is still the only wholly privately funded cloud seeding project on the planet.
Sorry to blab on and that it is a slight thread drift, but there is very few pilots who even know what cloud seeding is let alone ones I can fully share my experiences with.
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Hailstop:
Great photos! Enjoyed your descriptions too, I'd hardly call it "blabbing on".
My recollections of cloud seeding in WA in the late 60's would indicate we used quite different procedures. Winter seeding out of Perth comprised of flying around in the +2/-2C temperature range in cloud, burning silver-iodide (?) out of burners slung under the wings. This was in a B55 (VH-CFJ, the former VH-BIB) with full airframe/prop de-icing but no radar. If nothing else it taught me a lot about instrument flying and operating in icing conditions (and also just how strong a Baron airframe was).
There was also a summer seeding programme out of Meekatharra in a C55 (VH-CFG), a real "punishment posting" if ever there was one. The theory was that you'd find a towering Cu or Cb and fly (and seed) under the base; of course weeks would pass without actually seeing any cloud of any form! Meekatharra itself was a dump, the hotel was dreadful (no air-conditioning for us), the rest of my crew (2 of 3 "Cloud Seeding Officers" employed by the State Government) were constantly bickering amongst themselves and there was little to do. I ended up inventing excuses to go flying just to relieve the tedium.
Great photos! Enjoyed your descriptions too, I'd hardly call it "blabbing on".
My recollections of cloud seeding in WA in the late 60's would indicate we used quite different procedures. Winter seeding out of Perth comprised of flying around in the +2/-2C temperature range in cloud, burning silver-iodide (?) out of burners slung under the wings. This was in a B55 (VH-CFJ, the former VH-BIB) with full airframe/prop de-icing but no radar. If nothing else it taught me a lot about instrument flying and operating in icing conditions (and also just how strong a Baron airframe was).
There was also a summer seeding programme out of Meekatharra in a C55 (VH-CFG), a real "punishment posting" if ever there was one. The theory was that you'd find a towering Cu or Cb and fly (and seed) under the base; of course weeks would pass without actually seeing any cloud of any form! Meekatharra itself was a dump, the hotel was dreadful (no air-conditioning for us), the rest of my crew (2 of 3 "Cloud Seeding Officers" employed by the State Government) were constantly bickering amongst themselves and there was little to do. I ended up inventing excuses to go flying just to relieve the tedium.
Regarding the wheels up landing by REL or REK at SY, I was the Surface Movement Controller in Sydney Tower when this occurred - in 1961 or 1962. It happened much as described. The only "damage" was scratches on the underside of the engine cowls. When the fuss was over a crane went out on the grass area to raise the aircraft, the gear was successfully lowered and locked, the engines were started and the aircraft was taxied to the apron. I think the pilots name was George Martin?
A few years later I was a controller in Canberra when the same pilot in REK or REL diverted there at night following an engine failure after cloud seeding. He only just made it and when I spoke with him later he said it was far more frightening than the wheels up at SY.
A few years later I was a controller in Canberra when the same pilot in REK or REL diverted there at night following an engine failure after cloud seeding. He only just made it and when I spoke with him later he said it was far more frightening than the wheels up at SY.
REK in the west in the late 60s? Probably not Dora
We had REK at Cobar 1967-68 when Masling owned and
operated her for cloud-seeding for the NSW Dept of Agriculture
on drought relief.
First saw REK and REL at Canberra in 1959. They
were in company with an RAAF Dakota fitted out for
cloud physics research . Fris B F. would know whether that Dak became
VH-RRA that the CSIRO had on strength for a number of years.
In 1977 the late Ian Walker and I had a month in Mildura with
RRA doing CSIRO flights sampling the insides of clouds.
The late Arto Tapp was with the boffins. Arto was a nav on Lancs
in the war. He navigated REK and REL across the pacific
on the delivery flight, doing a bit of astro on the way. In Mildura, we spent more time on the golf course and in the pub than in the air.
The late George Martin, who had many a tale of train-busting
in Typhoons, was a memorable character, still reliving his war in the air. In the 310 heading west over Katoomba, he spied an aero club 172 up ahead.
On board was an instructor who had been in the air force too in the war.
Anyway George closes on the 172 , dives a bit then pulls up and around in a barrel roll while going tat a tat tat into his mic.
George had a good mate, Keith Fitton, I think. Keith wanted to write
the biography of George, but it probably never got past chapter one.
Last job George had was a beach inspector at Cronulla. One day he
was remonstrating with a young woman who persisted in riding
her horse where she should not have. George came up too close
to the animal which reared up, coming down with the result George was
badly hurt. He did not recover from his injuries. RIP came not long after the incident on the beach.
p.s. Arto Tapp also crewed Masling's C310 VH-AER on drought relief for the A.C.T. Department of the Interior in February-March 1968, based Canberra. We had a number of memorable sorties seeding in stratus at minus 10 OAT. Heater failure was not unknown for us either. Arto was training up a young fella from BOM . We had a pretty rough descent the day Arto sent this bloke off on his first go unsupervised. Can still see the shreds of his breakfast hanging off the post lights .
Thinking of which savoury topic . . . also unforgettable was the young German sitting in the right seat of the Chieftain VH-TAS on a very rough descent into Launie. He held onto it and held onto to it. But.. .. as we rolled out on 32 after touch down, from the corners of his mouth, still closed clam like, there trickled what had to escape.
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By George , you're right there. One though that has been retained for many a year is VH-REM . Heard it over the air
gliding round Boonah not long ago, a real blast from the past. It was a Mooney for sure that joined the circuit. I noted from overhead the hangar it disappeared into. AN hour later went over for a sticky beak. Through the hangar door cracked a foot open, there she was. . . . with her name still neatly painted on the cowling in flowing cursive script. . . . .. .SUGARBIRD LADY.
Those who may be wondering . . .. . . check out the two books of Robyn Miller. . . .. 'Flying Nurse' and 'Sugarbird Lady'.
Needless to say. . . this one on a pole at Jandakot was not Robyn's
We had REK at Cobar 1967-68 when Masling owned and
operated her for cloud-seeding for the NSW Dept of Agriculture
on drought relief.
First saw REK and REL at Canberra in 1959. They
were in company with an RAAF Dakota fitted out for
cloud physics research . Fris B F. would know whether that Dak became
VH-RRA that the CSIRO had on strength for a number of years.
In 1977 the late Ian Walker and I had a month in Mildura with
RRA doing CSIRO flights sampling the insides of clouds.
The late Arto Tapp was with the boffins. Arto was a nav on Lancs
in the war. He navigated REK and REL across the pacific
on the delivery flight, doing a bit of astro on the way. In Mildura, we spent more time on the golf course and in the pub than in the air.
The late George Martin, who had many a tale of train-busting
in Typhoons, was a memorable character, still reliving his war in the air. In the 310 heading west over Katoomba, he spied an aero club 172 up ahead.
On board was an instructor who had been in the air force too in the war.
Anyway George closes on the 172 , dives a bit then pulls up and around in a barrel roll while going tat a tat tat into his mic.
George had a good mate, Keith Fitton, I think. Keith wanted to write
the biography of George, but it probably never got past chapter one.
Last job George had was a beach inspector at Cronulla. One day he
was remonstrating with a young woman who persisted in riding
her horse where she should not have. George came up too close
to the animal which reared up, coming down with the result George was
badly hurt. He did not recover from his injuries. RIP came not long after the incident on the beach.
p.s. Arto Tapp also crewed Masling's C310 VH-AER on drought relief for the A.C.T. Department of the Interior in February-March 1968, based Canberra. We had a number of memorable sorties seeding in stratus at minus 10 OAT. Heater failure was not unknown for us either. Arto was training up a young fella from BOM . We had a pretty rough descent the day Arto sent this bloke off on his first go unsupervised. Can still see the shreds of his breakfast hanging off the post lights .
Thinking of which savoury topic . . . also unforgettable was the young German sitting in the right seat of the Chieftain VH-TAS on a very rough descent into Launie. He held onto it and held onto to it. But.. .. as we rolled out on 32 after touch down, from the corners of his mouth, still closed clam like, there trickled what had to escape.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I keep hearing my old rego's on the radio but on investigating, they are all on new aeroplanes now
gliding round Boonah not long ago, a real blast from the past. It was a Mooney for sure that joined the circuit. I noted from overhead the hangar it disappeared into. AN hour later went over for a sticky beak. Through the hangar door cracked a foot open, there she was. . . . with her name still neatly painted on the cowling in flowing cursive script. . . . .. .SUGARBIRD LADY.
Those who may be wondering . . .. . . check out the two books of Robyn Miller. . . .. 'Flying Nurse' and 'Sugarbird Lady'.
Needless to say. . . this one on a pole at Jandakot was not Robyn's
Last edited by Fantome; 18th Apr 2015 at 00:18.
Fantome:
Aurthur Tapp was one of the CSO's on the Perth-based contract that I flew. It tickled my fancy to go cloud-seeding with Mr A Tapp.
I was given a lift from Perth to Jandakot in what I'd swear was REK, maybe in 1969. But there's nothing in my log book of course, I'm relying purely on memory. What I vividly recall though is that the clown flying it switched off the boost pumps with great flourish at 200 ft as we were climbing out, only they were the magneto switches. I filled the ensuing silence with abuse, needless to say...
By George:
Me too! Droning back from Echuca a few weeks back there was a "CFD" on the radio, thought balloons drifted up of an immaculate maroon/gold/white Queen Air - but it wasn't, of course. Maybe we're showing our age??
Aurthur Tapp was one of the CSO's on the Perth-based contract that I flew. It tickled my fancy to go cloud-seeding with Mr A Tapp.
I was given a lift from Perth to Jandakot in what I'd swear was REK, maybe in 1969. But there's nothing in my log book of course, I'm relying purely on memory. What I vividly recall though is that the clown flying it switched off the boost pumps with great flourish at 200 ft as we were climbing out, only they were the magneto switches. I filled the ensuing silence with abuse, needless to say...
By George:
I keep hearing my old rego's on the radio but on investigating, they are all on new aeroplanes now
Hailstop:
Great photos! Enjoyed your descriptions too, I'd hardly call it "blabbing on".
My recollections of cloud seeding in WA in the late 60's would indicate we used quite different procedures. Winter seeding out of Perth comprised of flying around in the +2/-2C temperature range in cloud, burning silver-iodide (?) out of burners slung under the wings. This was in a B55 (VH-CFJ, the former VH-BIB) with full airframe/prop de-icing but no radar. If nothing else it taught me a lot about instrument flying and operating in icing conditions (and also just how strong a Baron airframe was).
There was also a summer seeding programme out of Meekatharra in a C55 (VH-CFG), a real "punishment posting" if ever there was one. The theory was that you'd find a towering Cu or Cb and fly (and seed) under the base; of course weeks would pass without actually seeing any cloud of any form! Meekatharra itself was a dump, the hotel was dreadful (no air-conditioning for us), the rest of my crew (2 of 3 "Cloud Seeding Officers" employed by the State Government) were constantly bickering amongst themselves and there was little to do. I ended up inventing excuses to go flying just to relieve the tedium.
Great photos! Enjoyed your descriptions too, I'd hardly call it "blabbing on".
My recollections of cloud seeding in WA in the late 60's would indicate we used quite different procedures. Winter seeding out of Perth comprised of flying around in the +2/-2C temperature range in cloud, burning silver-iodide (?) out of burners slung under the wings. This was in a B55 (VH-CFJ, the former VH-BIB) with full airframe/prop de-icing but no radar. If nothing else it taught me a lot about instrument flying and operating in icing conditions (and also just how strong a Baron airframe was).
There was also a summer seeding programme out of Meekatharra in a C55 (VH-CFG), a real "punishment posting" if ever there was one. The theory was that you'd find a towering Cu or Cb and fly (and seed) under the base; of course weeks would pass without actually seeing any cloud of any form! Meekatharra itself was a dump, the hotel was dreadful (no air-conditioning for us), the rest of my crew (2 of 3 "Cloud Seeding Officers" employed by the State Government) were constantly bickering amongst themselves and there was little to do. I ended up inventing excuses to go flying just to relieve the tedium.
Sounds like we learnt very much similar things in cloud seeding, the IF flying is amazing. I'd love to do some more to brush up on my scan.
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Cloud Seeding Cessna 310 Moorabbin 1980's
Hello Famtome,
Correct me if I am mistaken but I think I met you at Brian Walker's house during the late 70s/early 80s. My Old Man was Geoffrey K. who owned C310 WRG and Bonanza KKK. I distinctly remember someone I met at Blackjack's telling the story about the bent tailplane on WRG - that person was then flying in Tas - was that you per chance? I still have quite a few photos of WRG and happy memories of many flights in it.
Best, Arrowjock.
Correct me if I am mistaken but I think I met you at Brian Walker's house during the late 70s/early 80s. My Old Man was Geoffrey K. who owned C310 WRG and Bonanza KKK. I distinctly remember someone I met at Blackjack's telling the story about the bent tailplane on WRG - that person was then flying in Tas - was that you per chance? I still have quite a few photos of WRG and happy memories of many flights in it.
Best, Arrowjock.
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Mrs
Hi there, now 2021 and I’m just seeing this question about pilots of the Cessna 310 that did cloud seeding operations (your 2009 question!)
. I’m not sure about the Moorabbin location, But during this time, my father George Martin flew a Cessna 310 with a call sign REL ? from Mascot/Bankstown aerodromes.
...this plane now is in the Albion Park Heritage aviation Museum I believe. He flew this Cessna for approx 10 years with his co-pilot Bud Withers. I understanding is the CSIRO cancelled the project as there was no concrete evidence that the cloud seeding was repeatably proven to work. Loved knowing that there is still interest in this “rain making” history.
My dad was an ex-Typhoon fighter pilot .. shot down on D-Day over Normandy and harboured by the French resistance for three months prior to being rescued by advancing allied forces
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Cloud seeding Cessna 310 Moorrabbin 1980's
Hello Arrowhead. I knew Geoffrey from the mid 1970's and beyond.
I remember flying from Cootamundra to Canberra in a C310 piloted by Adrian Johnson and John Grey.
It was an inaugural Reg203 flight.
On arrival it was photos all round from the local press then I was off to do an endorsement on KKK
After completing the endorsement I was asked to fly to Mascot and pick up Geoffrey and family at the GA gate.
Quite an adventure for a young fella.
At Mascot Geoffrey took command and returned to West Riding IFR arriving just on dark. Also on board was a woman and young child.
I recall the Baron WRZ ? and of course the Duke WRA ?
I remember flying from Cootamundra to Canberra in a C310 piloted by Adrian Johnson and John Grey.
It was an inaugural Reg203 flight.
On arrival it was photos all round from the local press then I was off to do an endorsement on KKK
After completing the endorsement I was asked to fly to Mascot and pick up Geoffrey and family at the GA gate.
Quite an adventure for a young fella.
At Mascot Geoffrey took command and returned to West Riding IFR arriving just on dark. Also on board was a woman and young child.
I recall the Baron WRZ ? and of course the Duke WRA ?
Back when I started, about 1965, Bob Oliver who owned Murchison Air Charter, had a Cessna 411 rego VH TDB which we used for various contracts. Some high altitude photography and a brief trial cloud seeding. I flew the trial flights, but for reasons I can’t recall they were not successful. Fun, though, and I do recall returning to earth with some mild hail damage which he was not pleased about.
I thought Bob Oliver was never pleased about anything (having watched him from afar - I flew at Civils at that time).
I recall Jim Borthwick flying TDB and telling us all in our Queen Airs to "get out of the way, I'm faster and over-taking you" - he never did.
I recall Jim Borthwick flying TDB and telling us all in our Queen Airs to "get out of the way, I'm faster and over-taking you" - he never did.