Merged: Pel-Air Westwind Ditching off NLK
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Would like to know the full story, but according to the paper he made several attempts at landing, before running out of fuel.
I am sure CASA will be interested in this as risking 6 peoples lives by running out of fuel, at night, in the middle of the ocean, may not meet the requirements of a mercy flight, assuming that is what they will claim it was when asked why they ran out of fuel.
Civil Aviation Act Section 20A, which prohibits careless or reckless operations.
I don't think he has complied with 5.3, you tell me
( PS, it's an oldish draft, not sure if anything has changed )
I am sure CASA will be interested in this as risking 6 peoples lives by running out of fuel, at night, in the middle of the ocean, may not meet the requirements of a mercy flight, assuming that is what they will claim it was when asked why they ran out of fuel.
5.1
A mercy flight may only be declared when a pilot is unable to conduct a compliant
flight within the time available, or lacks the time to seek an exemption from relevant
provisions of the regulations. Notwithstanding the declaration of a mercy flight, normal
flight rules apply to the maximum extent possible in the circumstances.
flight within the time available, or lacks the time to seek an exemption from relevant
provisions of the regulations. Notwithstanding the declaration of a mercy flight, normal
flight rules apply to the maximum extent possible in the circumstances.
5.2
Pilots should be aware that stress generated by the urgency of a mercy flight may
compromise their decision making ability. Coupled with a contravention of normal flight
rules, poor risk analysis may result in poor quality decisions.
compromise their decision making ability. Coupled with a contravention of normal flight
rules, poor risk analysis may result in poor quality decisions.
5.3
A pilot should declare a mercy fight only after evaluating all known factors and
assessing the risks that are likely to be encountered during the flight. He or she must be
satisfied that although the flight will involve a breach of regulations, the flight can
nevertheless be conducted without significantly increased level of risk. Although CASR
91.170 authorises the declaration of a mercy flight, the pilot and operator remain bound by
assessing the risks that are likely to be encountered during the flight. He or she must be
satisfied that although the flight will involve a breach of regulations, the flight can
nevertheless be conducted without significantly increased level of risk. Although CASR
91.170 authorises the declaration of a mercy flight, the pilot and operator remain bound by
Civil Aviation Act Section 20A, which prohibits careless or reckless operations.
I don't think he has complied with 5.3, you tell me
( PS, it's an oldish draft, not sure if anything has changed )
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RPG, you would have to be ****head to make a statement like this
Endangering the life of passengers due to not carrying enough fuel, I would never want to be associated with anyone who thinks this idiot has done anyone proud.
You've done your fellow aviators proud,
Well Done.
Well Done.
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You're right Spikey, but we should wait for all the facts first, I am assuming the only " facts " we currently have are from the papers ?
I am not so sure CASA ( and Pelair ) will see him as a hero
I am not so sure CASA ( and Pelair ) will see him as a hero
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Pilot a hero???? I dont think so!
The Westwind with full fuel should be able to make it to Norfolk from Apia with enough fuel to get to Noumea in normal enroute wind conditions, with 1 approach.
the fact that the TAF was showing such bad weather there and that the METARS for the entire day were crap, would have had me planning via Noumea to melbourne instead of norfolk.
Noumea has an ILS, and good alternates around were norfolk doesnt have either!
I wonder whether pelair has given the pilots any planning software yet or whether you still have to provide your own (most of us had plans made on excel for standard routes and amended them if you were going somewhere different which really eats up your 2 hrs callout time) something like web based jetplan that the crew had access to (if they still dont) would have given the crew more time to look over weather and also allow them to run plans via NWWW to check alternate routings, for info its only 80nm further to go to melbourne via noumea which is the way I would be going!
I hope they do have planning software by now but if they dont I hope that they realise the potential saving of a few hundred bucks a year.
Good work for carrying out a successful ditching, but your a bloody idiot getting yourself in that position, especially if you were getting metars on the way and elected to continue there instead of diverting to NWWW, and if you weren't getting metars then you should hand in your wings.
Hero Pilot? I dont think so, lucky Pilot is a better call, you put the plane in the situation where you had no options! you are lucky to have got out with your lives.
the fact that the TAF was showing such bad weather there and that the METARS for the entire day were crap, would have had me planning via Noumea to melbourne instead of norfolk.
Noumea has an ILS, and good alternates around were norfolk doesnt have either!
I wonder whether pelair has given the pilots any planning software yet or whether you still have to provide your own (most of us had plans made on excel for standard routes and amended them if you were going somewhere different which really eats up your 2 hrs callout time) something like web based jetplan that the crew had access to (if they still dont) would have given the crew more time to look over weather and also allow them to run plans via NWWW to check alternate routings, for info its only 80nm further to go to melbourne via noumea which is the way I would be going!
I hope they do have planning software by now but if they dont I hope that they realise the potential saving of a few hundred bucks a year.
Good work for carrying out a successful ditching, but your a bloody idiot getting yourself in that position, especially if you were getting metars on the way and elected to continue there instead of diverting to NWWW, and if you weren't getting metars then you should hand in your wings.
Hero Pilot? I dont think so, lucky Pilot is a better call, you put the plane in the situation where you had no options! you are lucky to have got out with your lives.
Last edited by Captain Kellogs; 19th Nov 2009 at 08:15. Reason: Typo sorry
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Cougar
then gives a potential scenario 
Sorry correct me if I'm wrong, but the worst case scenario for Norfolk (being a remote island) would be depressurized. So the fuel calculations would be based on a point of safe diversion based on being depressurized. The PSD should therefore be beyond the island, if not try LR cruise, recalculate fuel, if not (a possible fuel leak) piss off to the nearest non-remote island/mainland (your alternate ... in this case Noumea).
I would think it prudent to sit on this one until the facts come out.
Crew press beyond PNR as fuel is all good at this point.
Wx closes in when aircraft past PNR.
Wx closes in when aircraft past PNR.
Sly Lowlife Freight
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'Pilot hailed a hero after ditching plane at sea'
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...SS&attr=797093
Sophie Tedmanson in Sydney
A pilot has been hailed as a hero for safely ditching his plane into the sea off Australia and saving the lives of all on board.
The medical plane, which was transporting a patient and five others from Samoa to Melbourne, began to run out of fuel as it approached Norfolk Island,
a small island in the Pacific off the east coast of Australia, on Wednesday night.
Captain Dominic James, a former nominee for ‘bachelor of the year’ in an Australian magazine, was praised for his “amazing” skill
at bringing the plane down in the dark and saving the lives of his passengers.
In an accident which bore similarities to the Hudson River plane crash in New York in January, Captain James decided to make a controlled landing onto the sea off the island, and landed the Westwind jet safely on the water.
The plane sank within minutes, but the patient, her husband, two medical crew and the two pilots evacuated safely. The six people clung to each other, treading water under the moonlight for 90 minutes because only three had time to grab life jackets.
They were eventually rescued by boat and taken to the island where they were treated for shock, but remarkably none were injured.
Pel-Air Aviation chairman John Sharp said he was very proud of Captain James and the first officer.
“Their professionalism stood out on the day and made a substantial difference to the outcome,” he said.
“They executed what would have to be described as a perfect landing on water. The pilots ensured that the aircraft landed close to the coast, close to rescue.
“They landed at night, approximately we think about 9.30pm (10.30am GMT) local time, and as a result of the skill of the pilots the aircraft landed in the water and none of the passengers were injured.”
Norfolk Island airport manager Glenn Robinson said the passengers were shaken up by their ordeal.
“They were extremely lucky and believe me, they all know it,” he told and Australian radio station.
“Full credit to the pilot. It was just an amazing effort by him.”
In January US Airways pilot Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger was hailed a hero for safely ditching an Airbus 320 into the Hudson River in New York, saving all 155 passengers and crew on board.
Sophie Tedmanson in Sydney
A pilot has been hailed as a hero for safely ditching his plane into the sea off Australia and saving the lives of all on board.
The medical plane, which was transporting a patient and five others from Samoa to Melbourne, began to run out of fuel as it approached Norfolk Island,
a small island in the Pacific off the east coast of Australia, on Wednesday night.
Captain Dominic James, a former nominee for ‘bachelor of the year’ in an Australian magazine, was praised for his “amazing” skill
at bringing the plane down in the dark and saving the lives of his passengers.
In an accident which bore similarities to the Hudson River plane crash in New York in January, Captain James decided to make a controlled landing onto the sea off the island, and landed the Westwind jet safely on the water.
The plane sank within minutes, but the patient, her husband, two medical crew and the two pilots evacuated safely. The six people clung to each other, treading water under the moonlight for 90 minutes because only three had time to grab life jackets.
They were eventually rescued by boat and taken to the island where they were treated for shock, but remarkably none were injured.
Pel-Air Aviation chairman John Sharp said he was very proud of Captain James and the first officer.
“Their professionalism stood out on the day and made a substantial difference to the outcome,” he said.
“They executed what would have to be described as a perfect landing on water. The pilots ensured that the aircraft landed close to the coast, close to rescue.
“They landed at night, approximately we think about 9.30pm (10.30am GMT) local time, and as a result of the skill of the pilots the aircraft landed in the water and none of the passengers were injured.”
Norfolk Island airport manager Glenn Robinson said the passengers were shaken up by their ordeal.
“They were extremely lucky and believe me, they all know it,” he told and Australian radio station.
“Full credit to the pilot. It was just an amazing effort by him.”
In January US Airways pilot Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger was hailed a hero for safely ditching an Airbus 320 into the Hudson River in New York, saving all 155 passengers and crew on board.
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more info here in the australian section of Prune:
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...g-off-nlk.html
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...g-off-nlk.html
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Captain Dominic James, a former nominee for ‘bachelor of the year’ in an Australian magazine, was praised for his “amazing” skill
However, and not meaning to detract from their "amazing skill"; surely they should not have been in that situation in the first place? Obviously we do not have all the facts here, but how was it that they did not have enough fuel for destination, or a suitable alternate?
I remember some wise words imparted during my initial training that went something along the lines of; "a superior pilot uses his superior intellect to ensure that he never has to rely on his superior skill"...
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Pel Air had some trouble in Noumea apparently - failed ramp checks due fuel policy, crew quals etc. Don't seem to plan there at all now??
Left Apia without TAF, and not much gas anyway.
Where's the regulator? Hello CASA??? If this was USA, any operator who ditched for 'fuel exhaustion' would be grounded.
Left Apia without TAF, and not much gas anyway.
Where's the regulator? Hello CASA??? If this was USA, any operator who ditched for 'fuel exhaustion' would be grounded.
More bang for your buck
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I seem to remember a Britannia(?) doing a forced landing in the UK on it's way back from Spain due to running out of fuel, the press called him a hero etc, but he still got blamed for not dipping the tanks as his fuel gauges were us and the refuellers had cocked it up.
Tiger 35.
I am not encouraging anyone to break regs under any normal circumstances. This was not normal circumstances.
I am familiar with nav tolerances etc.
I am not familiar with Norfolks approaches or terrain specifically/ personally but I know there is high terrain to N of airport.
In a final, last chance situation, I only suggest that a controlled appch /landing onto a lit runway or a runway strip area on the flat ground of an airport may be a safer option with a better chance of survival than a so called "controlled" impact with the moving surface of the ocean in presumably rough conditions and pitch black due to the overcast.
Obviously one has to avoid running into terrain on the final descent from MDA to the field. The final 3* descent from the VDP should keep you clear of the terrain IF you are within tolerances on the approach as this final 4-500 feet would normally be flown visually with the runway in sight if you were in the clear at MDA.
Not here to get into a debate.
I am not encouraging anyone to break regs under any normal circumstances. This was not normal circumstances.
I am familiar with nav tolerances etc.
I am not familiar with Norfolks approaches or terrain specifically/ personally but I know there is high terrain to N of airport.
In a final, last chance situation, I only suggest that a controlled appch /landing onto a lit runway or a runway strip area on the flat ground of an airport may be a safer option with a better chance of survival than a so called "controlled" impact with the moving surface of the ocean in presumably rough conditions and pitch black due to the overcast.
Obviously one has to avoid running into terrain on the final descent from MDA to the field. The final 3* descent from the VDP should keep you clear of the terrain IF you are within tolerances on the approach as this final 4-500 feet would normally be flown visually with the runway in sight if you were in the clear at MDA.
Not here to get into a debate.
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Hipster
I think that may be why a senior westwind pilot was told to get out of Guam and never come back recently.
See some of my past posts over the last few months.
I have seen CASA shut companies down for far less than this but somehow PA seem to be able to crash 3 (I think )westwinds and still be operating.
WTF?
If this was USA, any operator who ditched for 'fuel exhaustion' would be grounded.
See some of my past posts over the last few months.
I have seen CASA shut companies down for far less than this but somehow PA seem to be able to crash 3 (I think )westwinds and still be operating.
WTF?