Merged: Pel-Air Westwind Ditching off NLK
Moderator
Can we cool this thread? It is getting to be 99% noise, 1% fact.
Please spare a thjought for the Mods that must read every post......
A number of irrelevent or unacceptable posts have already been deleted.
If we can't stick to professional debate and known facts, we may be forced to close the thread until further facts are published in the public domain!
Please spare a thjought for the Mods that must read every post......
A number of irrelevent or unacceptable posts have already been deleted.If we can't stick to professional debate and known facts, we may be forced to close the thread until further facts are published in the public domain!
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tail wheel #387
I don't post here much(although I have posted more than shows in my record). I am interested in facts and truth(you know the old "the truth shall set you free" thing. Ah freedom aerobattng* a DH82 out of a grass field on clear winter day, oh for the olden days.) I became interested in this topic because of the ENORMOUS hero creation by the media. I consider it utterly disgraceful and this appears to be the only place to try to introduce some balance.
Has PPRuNe morphed into PPFactNe?
* Anyone know if aerobatting should have one t or two?
Has PPRuNe morphed into PPFactNe?
* Anyone know if aerobatting should have one t or two?
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Originally Posted by Green Goblin
Has the Westwind got a ditching/water landing checklist in the QRH?
Originally Posted by swh
Yes it does, red hatching around the sides, tab 14.
If they did follow that checklist then the battery master switch would be off at splashdown, ie no landing lights to see the water and no cockpit lights ?
The amount of fuel they had on initial arrival at the island is revealed by the number of approaches they did, ie how long does an approach take ? 10-15 mins ? 3 approaches means they had approx 45mins fuel. Nearest divert at least an hour away ? They had no options once they descended.
Many factors not being considering in this 'discussion' - I'll throw in just a couple - were the aircraft and navigations aids fully serviceable, how tired were the crew / how long had they been on duty, were all the airfield lights working ?
I thought salt water was good for infected wounds
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J3pipercub.......no vested interest as such. I just can't abide witch hunts!
By the way......in relation to Anthills post, I'm feeling more like Abigal the servant girl. First they want to f**k then they want to burn me!!!! I don't win either way.
Personally I think the only significant thing that Miller ever achieved was playing hide the sausage with Marilyn baby!
By the way......in relation to Anthills post, I'm feeling more like Abigal the servant girl. First they want to f**k then they want to burn me!!!! I don't win either way.
Personally I think the only significant thing that Miller ever achieved was playing hide the sausage with Marilyn baby!
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Could I suggest to boeingbender and GADRIVR with their hypotheses about wrong frequency selections and Guard police that they might do well to apply Occam's Razor? Occam's Razor
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Re Brian Abraham's Post #352
It would be interesting to compare the number of incidents arising from incorrect forecasting with those occuring prior to 1990 when there was an FSU located at NLK staffed with BoM qualified weather observers.
In those days, the FSU would have been responsibile for maintaining an "operational information watch" on each inbound aircraft and, as a result, had a responsibility to immediately notify any aircraft within 1 hour's flying time of any deterioration in weather below speci/altn criteria on both the destination and nominated alternate aerodromes. This early notification afforded pilots sufficient lead time to divert safely to any planned alternate or to return to the departure aerodrome prior to PNR if required.
However, with the removal of this FSU initiated service sometime around 1992, the onus now rests squarely with the PIC to take the initiative to update themselves on the latest conditions at both the destination and alternate aerodromes (preferably before reaching their PNR or latest point of safe diversion). ATC now only provides a directed service to aircraft for hazardous weather events (e.g. Sigmets); the availability of all other weather is only available from ATC on pilot request.
Since the change in 1992, I am constantly amazed at how many IFR pilots don't bother to update themselves on the terminal conditions at their destination and alternate aerodromes once becoming airborne, particularly when it is known that the destination weather is forecast or reported marginal.
I don't know whether the Unicom operator at NLK is a met approved observer or not, but one safety initiative that may need to be considered by CASA for island destinations (e.g. NLK, Cocos, Christmas etc) is to ensure that a Unicom/CAGRS operator is always in attendance for aircraft arrivals at island destinations, holds approved BoM observer qualifications and is supported by the re-introduction of operational information watch responsibilities under a LOA with the aircraft operator.
In those days, the FSU would have been responsibile for maintaining an "operational information watch" on each inbound aircraft and, as a result, had a responsibility to immediately notify any aircraft within 1 hour's flying time of any deterioration in weather below speci/altn criteria on both the destination and nominated alternate aerodromes. This early notification afforded pilots sufficient lead time to divert safely to any planned alternate or to return to the departure aerodrome prior to PNR if required.
However, with the removal of this FSU initiated service sometime around 1992, the onus now rests squarely with the PIC to take the initiative to update themselves on the latest conditions at both the destination and alternate aerodromes (preferably before reaching their PNR or latest point of safe diversion). ATC now only provides a directed service to aircraft for hazardous weather events (e.g. Sigmets); the availability of all other weather is only available from ATC on pilot request.
Since the change in 1992, I am constantly amazed at how many IFR pilots don't bother to update themselves on the terminal conditions at their destination and alternate aerodromes once becoming airborne, particularly when it is known that the destination weather is forecast or reported marginal.
I don't know whether the Unicom operator at NLK is a met approved observer or not, but one safety initiative that may need to be considered by CASA for island destinations (e.g. NLK, Cocos, Christmas etc) is to ensure that a Unicom/CAGRS operator is always in attendance for aircraft arrivals at island destinations, holds approved BoM observer qualifications and is supported by the re-introduction of operational information watch responsibilities under a LOA with the aircraft operator.
and it will come out in the wash.
F'instance: Northwest Airlines Flight 188 suffered a "loss of situational awareness" on Oct. 21. Like these guys were not asleep.
Laptops???? 
These forums are loaded with a wealth of information. All the reader has to do is filter the "wannabees" and "armchair critics" from the "been there and done that" poster. If you are in the latter group, then this is not hard.
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A modest suggestion for the improvement of this website
dogcharlietree: very sensible post
tailwheel: mods have a difficult job.
My suggestion: in some online versions of popular newspapers (eg UK Daily Mail) readers of comments (posted by other readers) on articles on the website can vote approve/disapprove on these posts.
Each poster ID only gets one such vote on each post by other readers.
See here for an example:
Shear lunacy: No beating about the bush for gardener who brought in a CRANE to mow his lawn | Mail Online
In the Mail's system, readers can select to read only those previous posts which have the best ratings.
Suitably tweaked for Pprune, this would mean that we could choose to read only the posts which had been judged by the majority of previous readers of that thread to be worth reading. Equally, we could choose to see all, and skip past those that had a net negative rating.
Huge saving of time and effort for readers of long threads, and those posts attracting high negative scores might help mods focus their efforts.
tailwheel: mods have a difficult job.
My suggestion: in some online versions of popular newspapers (eg UK Daily Mail) readers of comments (posted by other readers) on articles on the website can vote approve/disapprove on these posts.
Each poster ID only gets one such vote on each post by other readers.
See here for an example:
Shear lunacy: No beating about the bush for gardener who brought in a CRANE to mow his lawn | Mail Online
In the Mail's system, readers can select to read only those previous posts which have the best ratings.
Suitably tweaked for Pprune, this would mean that we could choose to read only the posts which had been judged by the majority of previous readers of that thread to be worth reading. Equally, we could choose to see all, and skip past those that had a net negative rating.
Huge saving of time and effort for readers of long threads, and those posts attracting high negative scores might help mods focus their efforts.
Last edited by crossingclimb; 25th Nov 2009 at 01:52.
All the rumours aside, I just want to know if he stalled 
PLAAAAAAANKY!
Oh and does this mean Dunza is going to get the Pel-Airs medivac contracts in his fleet of brand spanking new Caravans?
PLAAAAAAANKY!
Oh and does this mean Dunza is going to get the Pel-Airs medivac contracts in his fleet of brand spanking new Caravans?
Silly Old Git
* Anyone know if aerobatting should have one t or two?
The grass field and aerobatics in a DH82 on a clear winter day.....
From Aviation International News today.
Capt. Dominic James and first officer Zoe Cupit had a tough decision to make after three missed approaches during their attempt to land at Norfolk Island in the South Pacific. They were flying a medical transport–a female patient and her husband–from Apia, Western Samoa, to Melbourne, Australia. The pilots planned to land the Pel-Air charter Westwind II at Norfolk (1,473 nm from Apia) to pick up fuel, but upon arrival the cloud base was at 200 feet, according to Pel-Air. After three VOR approach attempts, the pilots elected to ditch the Westwind. It was dark, about 9:30 p.m. on November 18, and there was a five-foot swell. The pilots kept the landing gear retracted but deployed full flaps. “The aircraft was intact after landing, [the] patient and her husband and all crew [two pilots and two others] exited immediately and were in the water for about 90 minutes before being rescued by a fishing boat launched by the local rescue squad,” Pel-Air told AIN. “He made the right decision to carry out a controlled ditching rather than to persist with further attempts to land.” The Australian Transport Safety Bureau is investigating the ditching.
Capt. Dominic James and first officer Zoe Cupit had a tough decision to make after three missed approaches during their attempt to land at Norfolk Island in the South Pacific. They were flying a medical transport–a female patient and her husband–from Apia, Western Samoa, to Melbourne, Australia. The pilots planned to land the Pel-Air charter Westwind II at Norfolk (1,473 nm from Apia) to pick up fuel, but upon arrival the cloud base was at 200 feet, according to Pel-Air. After three VOR approach attempts, the pilots elected to ditch the Westwind. It was dark, about 9:30 p.m. on November 18, and there was a five-foot swell. The pilots kept the landing gear retracted but deployed full flaps. “The aircraft was intact after landing, [the] patient and her husband and all crew [two pilots and two others] exited immediately and were in the water for about 90 minutes before being rescued by a fishing boat launched by the local rescue squad,” Pel-Air told AIN. “He made the right decision to carry out a controlled ditching rather than to persist with further attempts to land.” The Australian Transport Safety Bureau is investigating the ditching.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau is investigating the ditching.
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Tinpis today 01:07
Tinpis I take it that you are accusing me of plagiarism. Not guilty. I've never read those or similar words. I spend negligible time reading aviation stuff. No magazines in last 20 years. Last book; Fate is the Hunter ~40 ya.
I entered the string "The grass field and aerobatics in a DH82 on a clear winter day" (with quotes) into Google and came up with ZERO matches. I despise cliché and do my own thinking.
HarveyGee would confirm the veracity of what I say.
I entered the string "The grass field and aerobatics in a DH82 on a clear winter day" (with quotes) into Google and came up with ZERO matches. I despise cliché and do my own thinking.
HarveyGee would confirm the veracity of what I say.
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Tinpis today 01:07
Logbook excerpt from 1960, at photobucket, with winter DH82 aeros.
logbook.jpg picture by acementhead - Photobucket
Yes my 19 year old printing is very messy. My 69 yo is just as bad.
logbook.jpg picture by acementhead - Photobucket
Yes my 19 year old printing is very messy. My 69 yo is just as bad.
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acementhead,
Thread drift, but maybe it needs it.
My log shows a dual check with Peter Selby in DH82 BCO 12 May 1960, and the printing is just as scruffy.
And when I turn the page I get BCO again, on 14th May, trying to master a slow roll in DH82 with Peter Selby. Cannot remember how much altitude was required at the start, but it would have been a lot.
Thread drift, but maybe it needs it.
My log shows a dual check with Peter Selby in DH82 BCO 12 May 1960, and the printing is just as scruffy.
And when I turn the page I get BCO again, on 14th May, trying to master a slow roll in DH82 with Peter Selby. Cannot remember how much altitude was required at the start, but it would have been a lot.
Last edited by prospector; 25th Nov 2009 at 02:27.
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prospector. thanks. Pete Selby. what a great guy. Never cavilled at putting on the flying suit, unlike someone else, and the midair; just magnificent.
Sorry that I'm so intent on defending my integrity.
Sorry that I'm so intent on defending my integrity.
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Acementhead. I'm not sure what sort of integrity you're referring to in regards to what you may be defending so I'll leave that alone.
I do however recognise an amateur "expert"
Leave the postulating in a public forum to the real experts. You know, people who do this day in and day out on a professional basis. Not an angry little Kiwi with a bad case of "tall poppitis". Whats the matter mate, upset that maybe somebody else may be getting kudos for getting a difficult job done?
Must be hard sitting in the nursing home having the old girls and young female nurses ooggling young Capt James after just one one incident when you've spent years tring to elicit the same reaction with tales of "there I was". Fumbling about in a bugsmasher just doesn't cut it does it mate? Must be hard to accept that. Thats OK darling I understand
I do however recognise an amateur "expert"
Leave the postulating in a public forum to the real experts. You know, people who do this day in and day out on a professional basis. Not an angry little Kiwi with a bad case of "tall poppitis". Whats the matter mate, upset that maybe somebody else may be getting kudos for getting a difficult job done?
Must be hard sitting in the nursing home having the old girls and young female nurses ooggling young Capt James after just one one incident when you've spent years tring to elicit the same reaction with tales of "there I was". Fumbling about in a bugsmasher just doesn't cut it does it mate? Must be hard to accept that. Thats OK darling I understand