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Merged: Pel-Air Westwind Ditching off NLK

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Merged: Pel-Air Westwind Ditching off NLK

Old 23rd Nov 2009, 12:23
  #321 (permalink)  
 
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The Truckie

There’s actually nothing illegal about using ones contacts from past employment to help your current employer get contracts. What I find abhorrent though is certain ex pollies that have got plum jobs after their political life simply because they helped a mate in business win a government tender for an airport or highway network. Natural monopolies that should never be in the hands of private enterprise.
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Old 23rd Nov 2009, 19:21
  #322 (permalink)  
 
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Another unanswered question that I am sure someone will be able to answer, comes from another Norfolk resident aviator that lives right next to the VOR at the threshold of 04, hearing and sighting all 3 missed approaches, but when the 3rd and final missed approach went overhead it sounded completely different, it sounded like a "turboprop".

FYI this information was given to the appropriate people during the situation.
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Old 23rd Nov 2009, 20:09
  #323 (permalink)  
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hearing and sighting all 3 missed approaches
Sighting?
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Old 23rd Nov 2009, 20:42
  #324 (permalink)  
 
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Not unusual, tinnie, as I'm sure you know. Nor for the crew to see the ground and runway during the missed approach. Slant viz is very different to vertical viz.

Can someone answer my earlier question? Did he start out with alternate capability, or had he planned with no alternate capability?

One comment, where the poster said the fuel state was below fixed reserves when it alighted, would make me think he departed ,not carrying alternate fuel (or a TOPD PNR).

Surely three approaches and missed approaches would not have used up 2+ hours of fuel at cruising rates? (Which I would expect he'd have needed to be carrying Noumea as an alternate or as a TOPD PNR.)
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Old 23rd Nov 2009, 21:36
  #325 (permalink)  
 
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Truckie,

He is not the CEO. He is in fact the non executice Chairman and would have nothing to do with the day to day running of Pelair.

He is also non executive deputy chairman of Rex.

It would seem that all he has done is stand up for some staff in the absence of the full information. A hanging offence it would seem.

As if his friends in high places are going to be labour government people.
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Old 23rd Nov 2009, 22:20
  #326 (permalink)  
 
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Logical disconnect

2. No mayday or other communication was given regarding a possible ditching ergo ditching was unintentional ergo CFIT
3. It follows from 2. that no exceptional skill was necessary in the fortuitous outcome
4. On the face of apparent evidence the aircraft was not carrying the necessary fuel as mandated by my reading of the regs.
With respect Brian Abraham - there's a logical disconnect between the two assertions you make in 2 & 4. If indeed it was a CFIT as you claim to know, how can you purport to know how much fuel was carried with respect to the regulations? The logical consequence of your assertion that it was a CFIT, ie. they are still maneuvering, should be that they were STILL busy attempting approaches into Norfolk, possibly because they maintained an expectation that the weather might improve or, - in fact even STILL had NWWW as an alternate up their sleeve. The last option is highly unlikely I know, but as pilots we tend to be too quick to wash our hands off one of our colleagues after they've achieved that undesirable disconnect between number of Takeoffs and number of landing in our logbook. I realise this is a rumour network but all of the self pronounced aviation experts posting here, helps set a public perception of the nature of character, skill and experience (and in this case - bugger me dead, even the LOOKS) of the aviator in question. For us to hang anyone out to dry before KNOWING the facts involved are as despicable as the press desire to make heroes out of anyone of us after we have done nothing but what would be expected of us in a difficult situation. I have done some flying out to Norfolk myself and echo the sentimens regarding the bravery of the First Response team launching a boat across the reef at night time. Without a shadow of a doubt - THEY are the true heroes in this case and I shall rescind my Aussie citizenship unless they are receiving a well-deserved medal and honour on next Australia day.

I reckon it is time for a lot of posters on this forum to take a deep breath and let the REAL experts get on with their investigations into the chain of causation that led to the situation where 6 people managed to swim away from the aircraft that night.
Cheers all

Last edited by boeingbender; 23rd Nov 2009 at 22:39. Reason: Getting the "quote" in properly
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Old 23rd Nov 2009, 22:49
  #327 (permalink)  
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in fact even STILL had NWWW as an alternate up their sleeve.
If this is the assumed case, then the conclusions you could assume for the accident was an attempt to get visual by letting down over the water or ducking under the minima (CFIT) rather than a planned and controlled ditching.

Think about it, why would you ditch if you still had alternate fuel on board?

I note with interest that the "Checklist" posted from the Flight Safety Foundation that there is no reference for the flight crew to don life jackets either before or after ditching.
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Old 24th Nov 2009, 00:51
  #328 (permalink)  
 
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With respect Brian Abraham - there's a logical disconnect between the two assertions you make in 2 & 4. If indeed it was a CFIT as you claim to know, how can you purport to know how much fuel was carried with respect to the regulations? The logical consequence of your assertion that it was a CFIT, ie. they are still maneuvering, should be that they were STILL busy attempting approaches into Norfolk, possibly because they maintained an expectation that the weather might improve or, - in fact even STILL had NWWW as an alternate up their sleeve.
BoeingBender I don't see any disconnect at all.

After three approaches one would have thought that things are unlikely to get much better.
If you've been to NF then you will probably know that the reducing temperature will only worsen the situation in the short term therefore the chances of the fog lifting are very unlikely.
Yes it has happened, but would you bet yours and other's life on it ? I wouldn't.

So, if he had the fuel to head off elsewhere then that would have been the time to do it, NOT hang around until you get to fly a submarine.

Surely a decision to ditch would have (given the enormity of the decision) at least been preceded by the MAYDAY call and an approx position of where they planned to deposit the A/C.

All of the factors indicate that the splashdown WAS premature or at the very least unplanned.

Remember, this guy wasn't alone up there...The FO could well have organised all of those things we associate with a planned ditching maneuver.

I could certainly be wrong (have been in the past, many times and sincerely hope I am now) but these realities are hard to walk away from.
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Old 24th Nov 2009, 00:53
  #329 (permalink)  
 
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as pilots we tend to be too quick to wash our hands off one of our colleagues after they've achieved that undesirable disconnect between number of Takeoffs and number of landing
Not I, perhaps you missed my
None of the foregoing is criticism of the operating crew since so many other factors come into play eg training, pressure from management, experience
and
but the discerning aviator, whether they be amateur or professional, only have an interest in learning how a fellow practitioner of the art managed to come to grief. We are all fallible.
I reckon it is time for a lot of posters on this forum to take a deep breath and let the REAL experts get on with their investigations
My understanding from posts elsewhere on the site is that Danny set up the board as a substitute for the "happy hour" hangar flying that people might otherwise indulge. Should any not be comfortable with that I guess they can remove themselves and drink at the other end of the bar. Then again I don't know what subjects you restrain yourself to when hangar flying.

The site's going to be a pretty empty place if we were all to take a deep breath whenever unfortunate events take place, though a deep breath is preferable before going under water.

Some info that just came to hand from another source

As an expat Norfolk Islander I can confirm there is no ILS available on Norfolk. The only aids are ADF and VOR. The GPS that was installed a number of years ago has not been commissioned. The weather during the 12 hours before the ditching was low ceilings that tended to roll in as fog every few hours. At the time of the ditching it was very heavy rain with fairly solid mist just above the cliff tops. Using the available aids there is no way that the strip could have been sighted in such conditions. The alternates are New Caledonia and Kaitaia in New Zealand both around an hour's flying time away. The local gossip at this stage is that the pilot held too long hoping for a break, and that the ditching was dead stick after just departing the end of RWY 22. If he had lost the engines while over land the ending would have been considerably worse as the airstrip is pretty much the only flat piece of land on Norfolk, the rest is very undulating and covered in Norfolk Island pines, a very substantial tree.

After radio contact was lost - there was no Mayday call - one of the local fire safety officers went out to the cliff top on the western side of the island and spotted 3 little lights bobbing in the ocean. There were only 3 life jackets being used for the 6 survivors. The accident report will make for interesting reading and there are sure to be lessons that can be learned not withstanding the amazing survival and rescue of all onboard.


Deadstick after all perhaps? In which case kudos for a good job in pulling it off if that be the case.

Last edited by Brian Abraham; 24th Nov 2009 at 01:12.
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Old 24th Nov 2009, 01:11
  #330 (permalink)  
 
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Has the Westwind got a ditching/water landing checklist in the QRH?
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Old 24th Nov 2009, 01:15
  #331 (permalink)  
 
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Should someone here be able to put me in touch with Dom, I'd
be v grateful. (Dear mod, it is to his potential advantage.)

PM only, any info.

Last edited by Fantome; 24th Nov 2009 at 01:48.
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Old 24th Nov 2009, 01:19
  #332 (permalink)  
 
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Could we drop the debate as to whether or not we should be discussing this accident?
If you don't wish to be involved in the discussion, then don't.

Some posters have probably jumped to some dodgy conclusions,
at the end of the day though, if something happened out there that night that could happen to me with even the most careful planning, I want to know.
If the crew was at fault, if the the aircraft let them down, if the SOPs were lacking, I want to know.
If the weather forecasting, the regulations, fatigue or some other unknown factor was crucial, I want to know.

There is always something to learn from every discussion, every crash comic, every investigation report.
Keep up the questions and suggestions everybody, there is some good collective grey matter here.
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Old 24th Nov 2009, 01:33
  #333 (permalink)  
 
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He'll get straight into QF now.
or a gig doing ferries for C&H
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Old 24th Nov 2009, 02:51
  #334 (permalink)  
 
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"NOTE TO ALL JOURNOS"
The vast majority of posts on this subject have been made utilising exactly what most of us detest. Unreliable second, third or imaginary information sourced through hack reporters, unqualified apparent witnesses or overly active imaginations!
NONE of them have spoken to the flight crew.
NONE of them have spoken to the company/ies concerned.
NONE of them were on the aircraft.
Comments such as that espoused by Brian, Zeebee Wiley and others above summarise what this forum is all about.
Not a forum for "professional" pilots but rather a virtual open back laundry window where the little old women who sit peeling potatoes on the sidelines of this industry can shout across the rickety back fence discussing the other neighbours personal and work life for all to hear with little or scant regard for facts or indeed for the effect on the unfortunate neighbours life or the life of his or hers loved ones as a result of their drool filled utterings.
The analogy that Brian has used is at best non sensical and at its worst a call to arms for every enthusiastic moronic wannabe to further tarnish Doms reputation. Most "professional" pilots will back me up on this!
As for Brian, Zeebee, Wiley and the part time crew...listen up.
Just so that we're clear you slack jawed idiots....this NOT a bar. It is an online forum veiwable from virtually any part of the world open to all.....including the journos you and other "professional" pilots all have no time for.
For the last few days I've been fielding questions and enquiries from media friends and aquaintances as to the circumstances behind this incident. My standard reply is....."I don't know all the facts, so I can't give an informed opinion" It's amazing how many of them have quoted "facts" and "unnamed sources" that seem to closely parallel the drivel that is served up on this website. Wake up to yourselves and have some consideration for somebody elses career.......morons!
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Old 24th Nov 2009, 03:03
  #335 (permalink)  
 
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Brian

Deadstick after all perhaps? In which case kudos for a good job in pulling it off if that be the case.
If it was TRULY a deadstick, then I think the the pilot did a good job in keeping the aircraft in a flying attitude until it hit something.
I don't think he would have had a clue where the water was in the conditions, and given that he was flying into a black hole, it would have been so easy to have allowed the aircraft to roll off the straight and level.

This accident has given me a new thing to be thankful for....I'm SO glad it wasn't me !!
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Old 24th Nov 2009, 03:05
  #336 (permalink)  
 
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GADRIVR Et al,

For crying out loud.. if you didnt want to read this you wouldn't have logged on. The mere fact you read the thread and then deride the posters for commenting is the most hypocrital thing... get lost if you dont want to know...

The title of this one isnt "Official ATSB Report" so why are you here?


On thread topic. John Sharp was the opposition minister during another successful ditching and I believe he was very vocal on the standards of the industry at the time.


Dog
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Old 24th Nov 2009, 03:22
  #337 (permalink)  
 
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GADRIVR, not having a go but can you be absolutely certain that nobody here has talked to people that were actually in NLK and involved that very night, even though it might be 2nd or 3rd hand information?

Granted most people's posts are, for lack of a better word, 'uninformed', there is the reasonable possibility that others are not.


However... Any word on FDR/CVR (does the WW carry them?) and aircraft recovery? How deep is the water?
If the seas are as rough around NLK as some posters mention, then I'd imagine recovery would be quite difficult.
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Old 24th Nov 2009, 03:27
  #338 (permalink)  
 
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FDR / CVR Recovery?

If they can find them that is....the clock is ticking...once immersed in water and the contact is activated isn't there a 60 day (max...) time limit before the sonar stops...(just remembering the metro into Botany Bay....)

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Old 24th Nov 2009, 03:38
  #339 (permalink)  
 
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GADRIVR, listen up. Just so that we're clear you slack jawed idiot, I'm playing a bit part, in a very small way off forum, to helping Dominic out in this, to him, stressful time. I've walked in his shoes so don't for one minute attempt to lecture me. moron.

I can't speak for Wiley but I know for a fact that ZEEBEE has had a long, and I might say, distinguished career in things aeronautical. An old women peeling potatoes he ain't.

PS Please do check what the "R" in PPrune stands for. moron (merely added for emphasis, but I'll wake up hating myself in the morning)
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Old 24th Nov 2009, 03:49
  #340 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by The Green Goblin
Has the Westwind got a ditching/water landing checklist in the QRH?
Yes it does, red hatching around the sides, tab 14.


DITCHING

PREPARATION

1. Communications ............................................................ .....MAYDAY
2. Transponder ............................................................ ........CODE 7700
3. Passengers ...........................................BRIEFED AND PREPARED
4. Cabin baggage ............................................................ .... SECURED
5. CABIN LIGHTS switch ........................................... BELTS/NO SMK
6. EMERG L T switch ............................................................ ........ ARM
7. Cabin altitude controller ................................... SET FOR DESCENT
8. Fuel DUMP pushbuttons ................................................... PUSH ON
(boosted dump required)

APPROACH

1. Cabin pressurization .................. MONITOR DEPRESSURIZATION
2. Landing gear lever ...................... UP; WARNING HORN CB - PULL
3. FLAPS lever ............................................................ .................... 40°
4. AIRSPEED bug and ADA indicator ........................ SET FOR VREF
(Figure 5-48)
5. Heading ........................................... PARALLEL TO MAIN SWELL

BEFORE TOUCHING WATER

1. Radar altimeter .................................................. SET FOR 50 FEET
2. Altitude ......................... NOSE UP; 10° deck angle when DH light
comes on (GO AROUND mode)
3. Thrust levers ............................................................ ......... CUT-OFF
4. FUEL SHUTOFF switches ................................................... CLOSE
5. BATTERY MASTER SWITCH .................................................. OFF

AFTER DITCHING

1. Pilot DV window .............................. OPEN to depressurize cabin
(alter removing loose articles
from window and console areas)
2. Emergency escape windows and door ................................ OPEN
WHICHEVER IS ABOVE WATER LEVEL
3. life Rafts ........................................... TIE static line to anchoring
point and prepare for deployment
4. LAUNCH AND BOARD LIFE RAFTS.
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