Merged: Pel-Air Westwind Ditching off NLK

[scarediecat]

Spot on emu787 .

IMO the crew did things well that night and other things not so well - obviously. There was bad luck that night but alot of good luck.
Having worked for Pelair I fear for the two pilots involved. Painted as hero's last week, out in the cold this week, let's see.
IMO I think the pilots are to a degree a reflection of the culture of the company they work for. (some will disagree but it's reality) Legally and all that they arn't. I can't help but think decisions made on the night would'nt be that of a person who wasn't under some other pressure's. Hopefully this will also be investigated.
IMO Pelair do things well, but other things not so well - this I think is where the resulting investigation should eventually focus.
Shall be interesting to read what media statements (if any) are released this week.

[Jabawocky]

I know some of you guys will take a shot at this comment, but why does an aircraft of this nature in this day not have something like a G430/530? (actually a G495 hand held would be better, as it gives you a G/S and used in conjunction with the 430). Do they have radar altimeters in the W/W?

Few pages back a a couple of us suggested pushing the minima a little in "emergency" situations, well if you look at the offsets for a VOR approach they are far from runway aligned so no chance of pushing below, if they were only doing a DME arrival the minima is around 1200AGL .

Now look at a RNAV RWY11.......runway aligned.....with two pilots, split the worload and follw three degrees all the way......monitor your progress very carefully and chances are they would have been visual well before the runway. Sure beats the odds on ditching or stooging around in the dark and accidental ditching. Sure breaking a few rules, but far safer in my opinion.

[tinpis]

How deep is the water?

[dogcharlietree]

Try this;
http://www.cmar.csiro.au/e-print/ope...h_Paper_31.pdf

[ZEEBEE]

Zeebee,

And what 'facts' are you referring to? Those reported on Today Tonight or ACA? Or those from PPRuNe or Crickey??

You seem to know the facts so why dont you share them.

Thanks CheckerBoard for answering very succinctly in your following post.

Three people ended up in the water without life jackets
The Airport Manager who launched to rescue them stated that he didn't know when the aircraft hit the water, or where it was when he launched the boat to find them (first hand radio interview)
The husband in the back stated that there was no advanced warning of the aircraft hitting the water. (First hand radio interview)
No Mayday was either received or acknowledged (multiple sources).

Jabawocky wrote

Now look at a RNAV RWY11.......runway aligned.....with two pilots, split the worload and follw three degrees all the way......monitor your progress very carefully and chances are they would have been visual well before the runway. Sure beats the odds on ditching or stooging around in the dark and accidental ditching. Sure breaking a few rules, but far safer in my opinion.

Couldn't agree with you more. Even the VOR app would be preferable since the VOR is sited right near the threshold of RW11.
However, it would have been dicey as there is a cliff face not very far behind.
As many have pointed out, the splashdown was always preferable to trying to shift the cliff.

Beggar's choice really.

[Cactus Jak]

Were they carrying the patients husband? If so, this would be a charter operation, not Aerial work.

[601]

Back in 2000 I did some work for an AOC holder who was conducting operations to "Remote Islands"
Our OM had 15 pages of flight planning data covering every conceivable situation.

One paragraph stated

the pilot in command shall, before commencing descent, obtain the latest actual weather from the Company's agent at the island and, if the weather is below the aircraft landing minima and the forecast does not indicate any improvement in the weather, the pilot in command shall divert to the nominated alternate.

The operation was subject to an Instrument of Approval from CASA and was specific to particular aeroplanes by registration. I cannot remember why the operation was subject to approval by CASA as the CAO does not state approval is required only that the minimum fuel may be subject to direction by CASA. There may have been a requirement in a schedule to the AOC to have approval. Refer to 28BBof the Act.

Posts on this thread have referred to the ASTB involvement. Would not the NZ CAA be the investigating Authority.

[dogcharlietree]

Would not the NZ CAA be the investigating Authority.

Norfolk Island became an an Australian Territory in 1914 and is administered under the Norfolk Island Act 1979, which provides for an Administrator as nominal head of the Norfolk Island Government, a Norfolk Island Legislative Assembly and a Norfolk Island Supreme Court oversighting the Island's legal system (derived from NSW and the UK). The Island's constitutional status is similar to that of the mainland Territories; the major difference is that the Island Government and Legislative Assembly have greater powers and responsibilities, including scope for enacting laws on matters that elsewhere are the preserve of the Federal Government (such as customs, quarantine and immigration).
Whereas Lord Howe island is actually part of NSW.

[Gnd Power]

ZEEBEE

the VOR is actually at the threshold of runway 04. If one was to follow the the runway 11 VOR (offset) approach to below the minima to the extent as being suggested the result would have been ugly.

WRT RNAV approach (not the SCAT RNAV), the plate notes that it was a new procedure and was dated 19th of November (amendment 121). The ditching happened on the 18th of November didn't it.

Was the RNAV approach available in any amendment prior to amd 121?

[601]

Would not the NZ CAA be the investigating Authority.

ATSB would have some function as the aircraft was Australian but who controls the airspace as far as aviation goes?

[acementhead]

Norfolk Hawk WELCOME ABOARD and thanks for your input. I found it very valuable in assessing what went on.

I agree that the real heros were the Airport manager and whoever else went out to perform the rescue. That was the thing that required skill and courage. Inadvertent controlled flight into water takes no skill at all(nor heroism).

Norfolk Hawk I might have talked to you 20 years ago and more as I operated the NAC F27 into Norfolk from the inception of the operation and subsequently the Air New Zealand B737 for a few years.

Thanks again for your post.

[LeadSled]

Does anyone have the legal definition of a "Remote Island" ?

Folks,
The "original" concept was "Island Holding", and was a "get out jail" card for the conduct if operations where there was no practical alternate, given all the circumstances of the operation, mostly the limited performance of the aircraft, if any commercial load was to be possible.

In years gone by, Qantas had a fuel policy that made extensive use of "island holding". In "those days", none of the Pacific or Indian Ocean services would have been possible without "Island Holding". With current large airline aircraft, the need to invoke Island Holding to enable a commercial operation has become less and less.

At one stage, at least two airlines (one AU, one foreign) had a fuel policy that had Perth as an equivalent of Island Holding, due to the then lack of practical alternates that could take their aircraft, before APLM became available.

The matter of the CAO much discussed here has a somewhat different genesis, and appeared as an aftermath of the Seaview Inquiry. The intent of the CAO was to eliminate certain operations to Norfolk and Lord Howe.

In my opinion, it failed in its specific intent (the particular operator continued), in part because it is so bloody complicated. A typical output of the CASA Office of Legal Counsel of the day.

If there is to be a law that mandates alternates for particular destinations, regardless of any other consideration, it should not be written so that it is able to be debated, as to its meaning.

All too typical of much Australian aviation law.

Tootle pip!!

[Car RAMROD]

Andu, i've heard that there was less than the fixed reserve in the tanks. (30mins for turbines isnt it?).
Enough to basically say "the water and thats it".

As for the time between not getting in on the last approach and putting it in the water, bugger all.

[ZEEBEE]

Gnd Power

ZEEBEE

the VOR is actually at the threshold of runway 04. If one was to follow the the runway 11 VOR (offset) approach to below the minima to the extent as being suggested the result would have been ugly.

Thanks for the clarification, it's been some time since I was there and they were just installing the new Doppler VOR on one of my last trips.

Can't answer the question re the RNAV prior to Nov 19, but someone who does the run and has the docs could.

And yes, the offset 11 wouldn't be pretty BUT putting the machine into an unknown swell (They're mostly big around NF) with dubious chances of getting a boat out that didn't know where the aircraft was, isn't a nice scenario either.

It may well be that a deliberate ditching may not have worked out as well as what appears to be an unintentional one.

[The Green Goblin]

I do love the difference between the media and PPrune!

Media

Hero pilot saves 6 passengers with successful night ditching.

PPrune

Reckless pilot has a CFIT accident in an unprepared ditching

Hope I never make a mistake and get put through the wringers on here!!

[Jabawocky]

C'mon GG......... get with the spirit!

You know the heroes were the folk in the boat that went to save them from being part of a marine food chain!

Big bities hang around there.....and the swell against the rocks just tenderises the meal a little first!

[crossingclimb]

From the current Norfolk Online: (Welcome to Norfolk Online)


Hi Folks,

I guess we will eventually read the ATSB report but I might be able to offer an answer to the question "why
was this aircraft so low on fuel?" To begin with he
probably wasn't low on fuel when he arrived at Norfolk.
Lets assume he had mandatory reserves on board. This
amount of fuel would be Fixed Reserve (30 minutes of
flying in a jet) plus any Variable Reserve (usually 10%
of flight fuel, call it 10% extra on route fuel to get
to NLK from Samoa). How long does it take to fly between
Samoa and NLK? It is 1450nm from Apia to NLK which
probably means about 3.5hrs of flying.
Therefore 10% of route fuel is another 21 minutes worth.
Result is total 51 minutes of fuel on board before the
first approach to be legal. Any extra
fuel is a bonus!
Each approach could take 10-12 minutes to fly on
average. Therefore 3 attempts to get in will have used
at least 30 minutes worth of fuel and
possibly 40 minutes worth. This means somewhere between
10 and 20 minutes of fuel left. What does a crew do with
this? Well my humble opinion is (after 13,600hrs flying)
that you use it to complete some sort of emergency
landing under full control and not wait until the gas is
gone and you are forced into the same decision. A
prepared ditching is far more survivable than an
unprepared one. All on board need briefing in the little
time left plus the cabin needs preparation for the
ditching and evacuation that will follow. Add extreme
stress (am I going to die soon?) and this can be a very
unpleasant time.
The result we know .. a ditching, a successful
evacuation and they were all rescued. My greatest
congratulations to the pilots for the best outcome. And
they ditched at night which vastly reduces the chances
of a safe water landing & survival. Double congrats from
me! I wonder which Westwind it was?
Cheers, Paul (Paul is a Pilot )


Now I understand.......

[STOL_king]

A side issue

I believe that the main issue of planning, or lack there off has already been discussed to death here. That aside, the ditching was 10/10 .

The issue of his so-called good looks is an equally important issue. Sure, go ahead an persecute the pooor bastard for operational decisions.....but for his looks??

I too suffer descrimination in the workplace and around the airfield on a daily basis because of my extremely good looks. Surrounded by guys (and some gals) who have heads like dropped pies is not easy.... in fact I try to tell myself that they must have really big trouser snakes to compensate, but still, it's not easy. Some days I look at my full sized trusty mirror and tell myself I'm fugly just so I can endure the hours ahead.

Please dont' hate us for our good looks.

Yours exceptionally attractive and well hung.

[Dog One]

The RNAV - Y approaches for Rw 04, 11 and 29 are all shown as new procedures eff 19th November2009.

Are the Pelair aircraft able to RNAV approaches and are the crews qualified.

[Bo777]

crossing climb
You forgot Norfolk is a remote island. I'm not going to elaborate because there have been plenty of posts on here on how much fuel the PIC should have been carrying.