Pilot's on Food Stamps
I am away from home to be at work for over 70 hours per week (generally) - split duty kneads the 70 hour week into a legal 40 hour week (say) for which I get paid according to the award, without demeaning the receptionist or the engineer who is paid more then me for working 40hrs - there IS something wrong with this scenario.
Capt Obvious says "without Pilots and Engineers, aviation business stops'. Who then should be at the pinnicle of pay scale?
I have my own agenda Peter Fanelli.
I'm not much of a legal eagle, nor do I have the time to read the fine print, but perhaps people should band together to put some ideas on the table on how to reverse the common exploitation of Pilot conditions and pay?
Perhaps PPRUNER's and other forum visitors with specific knowledge could elaborate on each point listed? This detail could be presented to the union by a keen member.
How does one make an impact? Speak to the union? Threaten to boycott the union? Start a campaign to empower the union? Create a powerful union? alert the sleepy transport minister? press a case for safety? Cause media hype? strike? rant on PPRUNE? ... or as I just read by Ixixy, make petition?
Capt Obvious says "without Pilots and Engineers, aviation business stops'. Who then should be at the pinnicle of pay scale?
I have my own agenda Peter Fanelli.
I'm not much of a legal eagle, nor do I have the time to read the fine print, but perhaps people should band together to put some ideas on the table on how to reverse the common exploitation of Pilot conditions and pay?
Perhaps PPRUNER's and other forum visitors with specific knowledge could elaborate on each point listed? This detail could be presented to the union by a keen member.
How does one make an impact? Speak to the union? Threaten to boycott the union? Start a campaign to empower the union? Create a powerful union? alert the sleepy transport minister? press a case for safety? Cause media hype? strike? rant on PPRUNE? ... or as I just read by Ixixy, make petition?
I remember being a turbo prop captain and having to take a second job, taxi driving in order to get by. The refueller and the loaders got paid more than I did and yes I was on full award wages.
Now with a low cost I make twice as much as I used to but work twice as hard with none of the standard airline benefits.
Looking at major airlines for my next career move, I see that Emirates which only a few years ago was regarded as a prime job are slowly but surely eroding their pilots terms and conditions. Also they expect me to pay for my own ticket to Dubai for the interview
Airlines worth working for are now few and far between, and you need to get in young with the long wait to upgrade. Only airline in Australia with decent conditions is QANTAS and they are underpressure from the financial crisis and competition.
CATHAY "A" scale a memory, back in the 1980/90s it was a dream job with widebody captains being grateful to get in as second officers.
Airlines are essential to the economy, look at the disruption during the pilots strike. It's time we as skilled professionals got paid what we are worth bearing in mind our training, skill and responsibilities.
It used to be you did the hard yards for a few years and it paid off in the end, now the pay back isn't there. No way can I recommend flying as a career to an aspiring youngster unless someone else pays, either a cadetship or the airforce.
I will steer my son in the direction of university and a degree in a field with good potential. I don't know of any dentists having to take second jobs once qualified.
Now with a low cost I make twice as much as I used to but work twice as hard with none of the standard airline benefits.
Looking at major airlines for my next career move, I see that Emirates which only a few years ago was regarded as a prime job are slowly but surely eroding their pilots terms and conditions. Also they expect me to pay for my own ticket to Dubai for the interview
Airlines worth working for are now few and far between, and you need to get in young with the long wait to upgrade. Only airline in Australia with decent conditions is QANTAS and they are underpressure from the financial crisis and competition.
CATHAY "A" scale a memory, back in the 1980/90s it was a dream job with widebody captains being grateful to get in as second officers.
Airlines are essential to the economy, look at the disruption during the pilots strike. It's time we as skilled professionals got paid what we are worth bearing in mind our training, skill and responsibilities.
It used to be you did the hard yards for a few years and it paid off in the end, now the pay back isn't there. No way can I recommend flying as a career to an aspiring youngster unless someone else pays, either a cadetship or the airforce.
I will steer my son in the direction of university and a degree in a field with good potential. I don't know of any dentists having to take second jobs once qualified.
Case -
1. Many mining companies require the service of air charter. Typically,
these companies require the Pilot(s) of the flight to meet specified experience levels. Mining charter contracts are a big deal to charter operators because at the very least, they ensure secure revenue.
The Pilots Award should reward the more experienced Pilot - the reasoning is justified. A pay subscale between Captain and First Officer should be enforced, and or a scheduled loyalty bonus should be paid
Comments - [left blank]
2. 30.1.1 of the GA award - "Where a pilot will be away from home base for more than 48 hours the employer will, upon request by the pilot, provide suitable transport or the cost thereof between the pilot's home and the pilot's base airport irrespective of time of departure or return. Where a pilot lives in excess of 50 kilometres from their base airport the employer may elect to pay the pilot the allowance of 70 cents per kilometre prescribed in 30.1.3 hereof in lieu of the provision of transport."
Bold emphasis is mine. Items in BOLD are weak! Who does this clause aim to protect? Scenario: what young first job Pilot is going to request transport if it is not offerred by their employer? Which fair dinkum employer elects to pay the Pilot an allowance of...? Why is the wording not absolute?, i.e. suitable transport WILL be provided by the employer, and 'if suitable transport cannot be provided, or, as an alternate, the emplyer will provided the Pilot with an allowance...' I suggest that the client bares the brunt of the these costs. In too many situations, the Pilot subsidises the operator and or client.
Comments - [left blank]
3. How many of us have claimed $74.95 as stated in part 30.33 of the award re: unloading freight? Why is it up to the Pilot to announce the claim? Who is the Pilot who will make the claim, if all of his colleagues don't?
Comments - [left blank]
4. Award part 30.61! How many charter operators provide you with a mobile phone?
Comments - [left blank]
5. Section 31 of the award - why is anything here able to be negotiated?
How many of us have 'negotiated' or accepted that a per diem of $30 or $60 or $80 is close enough?
Comments - [left blank]
1. Many mining companies require the service of air charter. Typically,
these companies require the Pilot(s) of the flight to meet specified experience levels. Mining charter contracts are a big deal to charter operators because at the very least, they ensure secure revenue.
The Pilots Award should reward the more experienced Pilot - the reasoning is justified. A pay subscale between Captain and First Officer should be enforced, and or a scheduled loyalty bonus should be paid
Comments - [left blank]
2. 30.1.1 of the GA award - "Where a pilot will be away from home base for more than 48 hours the employer will, upon request by the pilot, provide suitable transport or the cost thereof between the pilot's home and the pilot's base airport irrespective of time of departure or return. Where a pilot lives in excess of 50 kilometres from their base airport the employer may elect to pay the pilot the allowance of 70 cents per kilometre prescribed in 30.1.3 hereof in lieu of the provision of transport."
Bold emphasis is mine. Items in BOLD are weak! Who does this clause aim to protect? Scenario: what young first job Pilot is going to request transport if it is not offerred by their employer? Which fair dinkum employer elects to pay the Pilot an allowance of...? Why is the wording not absolute?, i.e. suitable transport WILL be provided by the employer, and 'if suitable transport cannot be provided, or, as an alternate, the emplyer will provided the Pilot with an allowance...' I suggest that the client bares the brunt of the these costs. In too many situations, the Pilot subsidises the operator and or client.
Comments - [left blank]
3. How many of us have claimed $74.95 as stated in part 30.33 of the award re: unloading freight? Why is it up to the Pilot to announce the claim? Who is the Pilot who will make the claim, if all of his colleagues don't?
Comments - [left blank]
4. Award part 30.61! How many charter operators provide you with a mobile phone?
Comments - [left blank]
5. Section 31 of the award - why is anything here able to be negotiated?
How many of us have 'negotiated' or accepted that a per diem of $30 or $60 or $80 is close enough?Comments - [left blank]
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I am more than happy to start an online petition, though can not help but question who it would be directed to, what impact it would actually have, and how it would be worded.
Perhaps generating some kind of media/public buzz would be effective in bringing awareness to the issue, eradicate some of the misconceptions people have and potentially gaining wide-spread understanding, as Nurses and Teachers have been able to achieve.
Perhaps generating some kind of media/public buzz would be effective in bringing awareness to the issue, eradicate some of the misconceptions people have and potentially gaining wide-spread understanding, as Nurses and Teachers have been able to achieve.
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Online Petition
An online petition is a great start.
You would have to target the relatively secure midfield GA pilots.
By this I mean not the 200 hour fresh CPL's lining up in Jabiru to get their first job, but the more secure 1000 - 2000 hour pilots in the bigger cities. Most of these guys will have 'been there, done that', most would have put up with some serious crap getting to where they are. It is the best bet to get the critical first few pages of signatures. From there you could step up to the regionals and airlines, and back down the remote locations.
Who to send it to;
The Minister of Transport, and the Fair Work Ombudsman.
CC'd to AFAP.
BCC'd to ACA and TT just for ****s and giggles.
With the wording;
You want something simple, that won't incriminate the people signing it - and more importantly make them unemployable.
Unfortunately this is a questions AFAP should be asking the industry, a proper union would make contact with the people it currently represents and the people it hopes or should represent. Anyone remember a couple year ago when the TWU was contacting pilots around Australia?
It would make my day if I saw an AFAP rep walk into any aviation company with a note board, pen and a brochure or two, signing up people and getting signatures for a petition. It would absolutely be a great day!
Regards, Lost
You would have to target the relatively secure midfield GA pilots.
By this I mean not the 200 hour fresh CPL's lining up in Jabiru to get their first job, but the more secure 1000 - 2000 hour pilots in the bigger cities. Most of these guys will have 'been there, done that', most would have put up with some serious crap getting to where they are. It is the best bet to get the critical first few pages of signatures. From there you could step up to the regionals and airlines, and back down the remote locations.
Who to send it to;
The Minister of Transport, and the Fair Work Ombudsman.
CC'd to AFAP.
BCC'd to ACA and TT just for ****s and giggles.
With the wording;
You want something simple, that won't incriminate the people signing it - and more importantly make them unemployable.
Unfortunately this is a questions AFAP should be asking the industry, a proper union would make contact with the people it currently represents and the people it hopes or should represent. Anyone remember a couple year ago when the TWU was contacting pilots around Australia?
It would make my day if I saw an AFAP rep walk into any aviation company with a note board, pen and a brochure or two, signing up people and getting signatures for a petition. It would absolutely be a great day!
Regards, Lost
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Unfortunately this is a questions AFAP should be asking the industry, a proper union would make contact with the people it currently represents and the people it hopes or should represent. Anyone remember a couple year ago when the TWU was contacting pilots around Australia?
It would make my day if I saw an AFAP rep walk into any aviation company with a note board, pen and a brochure or two, signing up people and getting signatures for a petition. It would absolutely be a great day!
It would make my day if I saw an AFAP rep walk into any aviation company with a note board, pen and a brochure or two, signing up people and getting signatures for a petition. It would absolutely be a great day!
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Chaps,
Under the Industrial Laws in place in Australia, the only way to increase your wages is through collective bargaining at the workplace.
Award rates cannot be increased except through the annual wage review performed by Fair Work Australia so your only option is to go to your employer.
This is where it gets tricky.
Whilst your employer is required to bargain in good faith (as are you) and you have the "right" to take industrial action (provided the relevant hoops have been jumped through) you have the problem that you are a "essential industry" and "vital to the nations economy".
This means that any attempt to take industrial action concurrently with employees negotiating with another employer would be doomed to failure. The employers would only have to show the potential damage to the economy which would result from such action and it's all over red rover.
So improving your lot when employed for QANTAS/Jetstar, Virgin or REX may be possible during collective agreement negotiations because of the sheer number of pilots employed in those companies. You face the difficulty of ensuring unity though.
In the smaller GA outfits however, I can't see any way to improve the wage rates because these guys fly under the industrial radar and there is long history of pilots being dismissed for "misconduct" when questioning their pay, let alone trying to negotiate a raise.
Under the Industrial Laws in place in Australia, the only way to increase your wages is through collective bargaining at the workplace.
Award rates cannot be increased except through the annual wage review performed by Fair Work Australia so your only option is to go to your employer.
This is where it gets tricky.
Whilst your employer is required to bargain in good faith (as are you) and you have the "right" to take industrial action (provided the relevant hoops have been jumped through) you have the problem that you are a "essential industry" and "vital to the nations economy".
This means that any attempt to take industrial action concurrently with employees negotiating with another employer would be doomed to failure. The employers would only have to show the potential damage to the economy which would result from such action and it's all over red rover.
So improving your lot when employed for QANTAS/Jetstar, Virgin or REX may be possible during collective agreement negotiations because of the sheer number of pilots employed in those companies. You face the difficulty of ensuring unity though.
In the smaller GA outfits however, I can't see any way to improve the wage rates because these guys fly under the industrial radar and there is long history of pilots being dismissed for "misconduct" when questioning their pay, let alone trying to negotiate a raise.
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Interesting thread. Makes me glad that I ditched a flying career a long time ago. Always wondered if I made the right choice.
Anyway, nothing will ever change if you sit back and wait for the union to do something for you. The people at AFAP are not the union, the members are and you need to be procactive and get AFAP working for you. Encourage your workmates to join the union, only then when you have strength in numbers can you make a change, as did the teachers (NSW), civil ATC, the list goes on.
Contact your union reps and get the ball rolling on a wages campaign. If you sit back, nothing will ever change. It will take a long time but its the only way you will get any changes.
Good luck.
Anyway, nothing will ever change if you sit back and wait for the union to do something for you. The people at AFAP are not the union, the members are and you need to be procactive and get AFAP working for you. Encourage your workmates to join the union, only then when you have strength in numbers can you make a change, as did the teachers (NSW), civil ATC, the list goes on.
Contact your union reps and get the ball rolling on a wages campaign. If you sit back, nothing will ever change. It will take a long time but its the only way you will get any changes.
Good luck.
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For all the guys out there who do not want to be part of this continual race to the bottom.
When you finally do get the experience for a job at a regional or a LCC, think long and hard about your long term future, when signing up for lower paying jobs where you pay for endorsements, airport parking etc.
There will be many opportunities overseas, it's a bit like the new road trip to Darwin in GA.
It may be hard to leave the shores of Australia/NZ, but the life rewards and not being a contributor to the downward spiral in Australasian conditions will leave you and many others better off.
When you finally do get the experience for a job at a regional or a LCC, think long and hard about your long term future, when signing up for lower paying jobs where you pay for endorsements, airport parking etc.
There will be many opportunities overseas, it's a bit like the new road trip to Darwin in GA.
It may be hard to leave the shores of Australia/NZ, but the life rewards and not being a contributor to the downward spiral in Australasian conditions will leave you and many others better off.
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As always, the magic words are 'context' and 'perspective.'
Many convincing points have been made on this thread regarding the state of affairs in this once great industry. As airline pilots of today, are we underpaid when compared to our compatriots of yesteryear? Absolutely. Are we underpaid when considering the massive responsibility placed on our shoulders to get a couple of hundred punters safely from "A" to "B"? Without a doubt.
Nevertheless when put into context, I consider myself fortunate to be paid a six-figure salary for a job that, most days, I enjoy. Most of my friends don't earn as much as I do - in or out of aviation - and those that do earn an equivalent salary to mine don't enjoy their work as much. Furthermore, it wasn't that many years ago that I was struggling to support a family on a GA wage that some might argue was so low as to be considered criminally negligent on the part of those who were paying me. As such, I feel for many of my friends still doing the hard yards, and whilst I could argue that - in spite of what I now earn - it still isn't enough, I don't feel I have the right to bitch and moan when there are so many out there doing it a lot harder than me. Unfortunately - although thankfully rarely - I'll have the misfortune of being paired on a trip with a grumpy old fart that spends all day in the cockpit bitching about how bad our company is, how underpaid we are when compared with the good old days, and how he could be earning so much more elsewhere. Quite frankly I couldn't give a rotting rat's ring-hole, and would much rather he vent his frustrations on someone who gives a damn. If it's so bad, vote with your feet and take your business elsewhere, but to be honest I find it quite offensive that some of us have the nerve to complain about how tough we've got it, when our salary is still well above the national average - and there are many people out there in the real world doing it a lot tougher than us.
The simple fact is that this industry ain't what it used to be, and there's an awful lot more wrong with it than is right, but that's beside the point. If I put my mind to it, I could make a very long list about everything I hate in aviation, but the only thing I'd achieve in the process is turn myself into a bitter and twisted individual. Personally I'd rather be happy than not, and this - like many things in life - is a choice within my power to make. When it stops being that way I'll get out, but until then I'll try to be more patient, more considerate, and more appreciative of the things I do have in my life (both in and outside of work) - rather than dwell on what I don't have, could have, or should have.
Many convincing points have been made on this thread regarding the state of affairs in this once great industry. As airline pilots of today, are we underpaid when compared to our compatriots of yesteryear? Absolutely. Are we underpaid when considering the massive responsibility placed on our shoulders to get a couple of hundred punters safely from "A" to "B"? Without a doubt.
Nevertheless when put into context, I consider myself fortunate to be paid a six-figure salary for a job that, most days, I enjoy. Most of my friends don't earn as much as I do - in or out of aviation - and those that do earn an equivalent salary to mine don't enjoy their work as much. Furthermore, it wasn't that many years ago that I was struggling to support a family on a GA wage that some might argue was so low as to be considered criminally negligent on the part of those who were paying me. As such, I feel for many of my friends still doing the hard yards, and whilst I could argue that - in spite of what I now earn - it still isn't enough, I don't feel I have the right to bitch and moan when there are so many out there doing it a lot harder than me. Unfortunately - although thankfully rarely - I'll have the misfortune of being paired on a trip with a grumpy old fart that spends all day in the cockpit bitching about how bad our company is, how underpaid we are when compared with the good old days, and how he could be earning so much more elsewhere. Quite frankly I couldn't give a rotting rat's ring-hole, and would much rather he vent his frustrations on someone who gives a damn. If it's so bad, vote with your feet and take your business elsewhere, but to be honest I find it quite offensive that some of us have the nerve to complain about how tough we've got it, when our salary is still well above the national average - and there are many people out there in the real world doing it a lot tougher than us.
The simple fact is that this industry ain't what it used to be, and there's an awful lot more wrong with it than is right, but that's beside the point. If I put my mind to it, I could make a very long list about everything I hate in aviation, but the only thing I'd achieve in the process is turn myself into a bitter and twisted individual. Personally I'd rather be happy than not, and this - like many things in life - is a choice within my power to make. When it stops being that way I'll get out, but until then I'll try to be more patient, more considerate, and more appreciative of the things I do have in my life (both in and outside of work) - rather than dwell on what I don't have, could have, or should have.
"you should be talking to the AFAP..."
...but the reality is that the AFAP, speaking to a single member, will fob you off and say "that's not what we're here for".
Lost Wing Nut,
You are absolutely dead right - the AFAP needs to engage pilots at the GA level. Only then, and only maybe then, there will not be splinter rep groups in Virgin and Jetstar that the AFAP waste increasing amounts of legal fees opposing.
What is a PPRuNe thread going to achieve?
I know the AFAP read these pages and they certainly react to criticism here. Maybe, just maybe, after ANOTHER thread almost begging the AFAP to show some leadership... maybe they will say something more than "the AFAP is about its members and maybe you should be contributing rather than criticising us on an anonymous internet forum blah blah blah"
I have moved from "employee" to "employer" recently but I have kept up my membership regardless in the hope that some good may come of it... one day...
Lost Wing Nut,
You are absolutely dead right - the AFAP needs to engage pilots at the GA level. Only then, and only maybe then, there will not be splinter rep groups in Virgin and Jetstar that the AFAP waste increasing amounts of legal fees opposing.
What is a PPRuNe thread going to achieve?
I know the AFAP read these pages and they certainly react to criticism here. Maybe, just maybe, after ANOTHER thread almost begging the AFAP to show some leadership... maybe they will say something more than "the AFAP is about its members and maybe you should be contributing rather than criticising us on an anonymous internet forum blah blah blah"
I have moved from "employee" to "employer" recently but I have kept up my membership regardless in the hope that some good may come of it... one day...
What kid of coin?
Okay, to save me from making a right goose of myself - again - would some folks like to divulge what they actually earnt last year? Gross, net, and what you were doing to earn that kind of money? Hours wise, aircraft flown?
I'm of the firm impression I made the right choice not pursuing a career in aviation after the military, and instead joined the railways. $45K in my first year, $65K in my second, and last year $95K including a little overtime and my meagre allowances.
So, how does this compare to a commercial pilot in GA? In the airlines?
I'm of the firm impression I made the right choice not pursuing a career in aviation after the military, and instead joined the railways. $45K in my first year, $65K in my second, and last year $95K including a little overtime and my meagre allowances.
So, how does this compare to a commercial pilot in GA? In the airlines?
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Coin
KRviator
First year or years is spent in places such as the Kimberly or Arnhem Land, if your lucky enough to be full time then your looking at anywhere from $25k to $34k per year, if your casual then anywhere from $30 to $45 per flying hour, a few companies only pay MR time. Asking for more pay, or even minimum wage is a fireable offence, hell even printing the award and having it in your locker can result in a one week suspension. As a 20 year old, fresh eye'd newbie you have no idea about workers rights and things such as unions and workplace ombudsmen. Its not really something they teach at high school or the flying school.
The next job is normally in a slightly bigger city, if not a capital. Both full time and casual are normally on the minimum award, excluding any allowances etc. This is anywhere from roughly $34k for single VFR to around $47k twin IFR. Keep in mind that most these guys have a few years experience and anywhere from 1000 hours to 2500 hours. A number of companies started paying a bit more than the award, just to keep the senior guys, your looking from $50k to $55k for twin IFR. Once again, compare this to any other industry, it is still very low.
A step to the regionals will normally result in a good pay cut for these guys, a drop from $47k down to $37k can be normal, which will eventually over a few years build back up to $55k. Once again you have to keep in mind these guys on average have now probably been in the industry for 5 to 8 years plus and with a few thousand hours experience.
Regards, Lost
First year or years is spent in places such as the Kimberly or Arnhem Land, if your lucky enough to be full time then your looking at anywhere from $25k to $34k per year, if your casual then anywhere from $30 to $45 per flying hour, a few companies only pay MR time. Asking for more pay, or even minimum wage is a fireable offence, hell even printing the award and having it in your locker can result in a one week suspension. As a 20 year old, fresh eye'd newbie you have no idea about workers rights and things such as unions and workplace ombudsmen. Its not really something they teach at high school or the flying school.
The next job is normally in a slightly bigger city, if not a capital. Both full time and casual are normally on the minimum award, excluding any allowances etc. This is anywhere from roughly $34k for single VFR to around $47k twin IFR. Keep in mind that most these guys have a few years experience and anywhere from 1000 hours to 2500 hours. A number of companies started paying a bit more than the award, just to keep the senior guys, your looking from $50k to $55k for twin IFR. Once again, compare this to any other industry, it is still very low.
A step to the regionals will normally result in a good pay cut for these guys, a drop from $47k down to $37k can be normal, which will eventually over a few years build back up to $55k. Once again you have to keep in mind these guys on average have now probably been in the industry for 5 to 8 years plus and with a few thousand hours experience.
Regards, Lost
Bunglerat,
I feel that your comments are appropriate and it's great to work with somebody who is positive, nevertheless the dreadfulness of it all remains, albeit your current situation is obviously better than many in lesser paid jobs (not to say that you haven't been there and done that).
Professional Pilots are fortunate that they have the personal tenacity, skill and devotion to persist with flying. It is the Pilots choice to be employed as such, and that Pilot should have the ability to value his/her training and experience and put a realistic price on the table for his/her service to what is regarded an essential service.
When did paying for a $30k endorsement become acceptable? Pay for parking? WTF Sleep in the airport car park during a tour? 
No thank-you. When does common sense and your balls kick in to say "you can STICK IT"?
Someone is really Fu*kn with our lives here - we all know the direct and indirect costs involved with training, working, recurrency etc.
Making a long list of negatives will probably make you an enlightened but somewhat bitter and twisted individual as you say (like me
), but if you take those concerns outside of the flightdeck or lunchroom (which I think Pilot types are not good at), chances are that they will be addressed.
I hope that the verbosity of this thread stops and it provides impetus to voicing Pilot concerns beyond that of our Captain or FO/SO colleagues.
I'm not a pollie, but if many of you think that an online petition is a good start, suggest some wording and constraints, and although it may take me some time, I can work out how to get it online.
*** Aside *** I should address this qn to AFAP, but some PPRUNERs may have inside knowldege... has AFAP ever made an advertising campaign to try and fatten membership numbers? i.e. pamphlets sent to persons attributed with an ARN, membership forms handed out when commencing new employment etc? As mentioned by lostwingnut, workers rights and things such as unions and workplace ombudsmen are not usually introduced to green Pilots.
KRviator, re coin check out the general aviation safety net award . Many employers will use this as their benchmark. IT'S WORSE IN NZ! Several years ago I rejected an invitation to work as FO on a multi-engine turbine >5700kg in an NZ capital city for a major business for a salary of something like NZ$23 or $27k/annum.
THE PUBLIC DO GIVE A DAMN, AND NOBODY WANTS A PILOT WHO HAS SLEPT IN THE STAFF CAR PARK OVERNIGHT OR EATEN 2 MINUTE NOODLES FOR DINNER THE NIGHT BEFORE, TO FLY THEM BETWEEN PORTS.
I feel that your comments are appropriate and it's great to work with somebody who is positive, nevertheless the dreadfulness of it all remains, albeit your current situation is obviously better than many in lesser paid jobs (not to say that you haven't been there and done that).
Professional Pilots are fortunate that they have the personal tenacity, skill and devotion to persist with flying. It is the Pilots choice to be employed as such, and that Pilot should have the ability to value his/her training and experience and put a realistic price on the table for his/her service to what is regarded an essential service.
When did paying for a $30k endorsement become acceptable?
Pay for parking? WTF Sleep in the airport car park during a tour? No thank-you. When does common sense and your balls kick in to say "you can STICK IT"?Someone is really Fu*kn with our lives here - we all know the direct and indirect costs involved with training, working, recurrency etc.
Making a long list of negatives will probably make you an enlightened but somewhat bitter and twisted individual as you say (like me
), but if you take those concerns outside of the flightdeck or lunchroom (which I think Pilot types are not good at), chances are that they will be addressed.I hope that the verbosity of this thread stops and it provides impetus to voicing Pilot concerns beyond that of our Captain or FO/SO colleagues.
I'm not a pollie, but if many of you think that an online petition is a good start, suggest some wording and constraints, and although it may take me some time, I can work out how to get it online.
*** Aside *** I should address this qn to AFAP, but some PPRUNERs may have inside knowldege... has AFAP ever made an advertising campaign to try and fatten membership numbers? i.e. pamphlets sent to persons attributed with an ARN, membership forms handed out when commencing new employment etc? As mentioned by lostwingnut, workers rights and things such as unions and workplace ombudsmen are not usually introduced to green Pilots.
KRviator, re coin check out the general aviation safety net award . Many employers will use this as their benchmark. IT'S WORSE IN NZ! Several years ago I rejected an invitation to work as FO on a multi-engine turbine >5700kg in an NZ capital city for a major business for a salary of something like NZ$23 or $27k/annum.
THE PUBLIC DO GIVE A DAMN, AND NOBODY WANTS A PILOT WHO HAS SLEPT IN THE STAFF CAR PARK OVERNIGHT OR EATEN 2 MINUTE NOODLES FOR DINNER THE NIGHT BEFORE, TO FLY THEM BETWEEN PORTS.
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Here's something for you all to think about:
Any increase to pilot's T&Cs will put other pilots out of a job.
The travelling public can only afford to pay so much. To double pilot salaries, for example, would require the public to pay roughly twice what they presently pay in airfares.
Doubling pilot salaries would (roughly) reduce pilot numbers by half.
The above is a very rough guide as to the effect of increased pilot remuneration and conforms with general economic theory. Please don't rattle off one of those calculations that show how a tiny, $0.20 cent increase in ticket prices can finance huge pay increases for pilots. Those calculations are rubbish.
Any increase to pilot's T&Cs will put other pilots out of a job.
The travelling public can only afford to pay so much. To double pilot salaries, for example, would require the public to pay roughly twice what they presently pay in airfares.
Doubling pilot salaries would (roughly) reduce pilot numbers by half.
The above is a very rough guide as to the effect of increased pilot remuneration and conforms with general economic theory. Please don't rattle off one of those calculations that show how a tiny, $0.20 cent increase in ticket prices can finance huge pay increases for pilots. Those calculations are rubbish.
Well, I'm thinking about it, and I'm impressed with your rough rule of thumb, out of a hat, tea leaf patterned, calculations.
Just what did you base this fantasy equation on, roughly?
Just what did you base this fantasy equation on, roughly?
(if your PPRUNE memory stretches back that far...)