Pilot's on Food Stamps
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Pilot's on Food Stamps
Afternoon all,
Might be old, but it was new for me. An interesting read, about time the general public became aware of what pilot's have to put up with.
Mike's Blog #1: 'Pilots on Food Stamps' | MichaelMoore.com
Personally I never hold back when passenger Joe ask's what kinda money I'm on. I know we all do it 'for the love of flying', but in the end it is a highly specialised job that requires a serious amount of training and investment.
Regards, Lost
Might be old, but it was new for me. An interesting read, about time the general public became aware of what pilot's have to put up with.
Mike's Blog #1: 'Pilots on Food Stamps' | MichaelMoore.com
Personally I never hold back when passenger Joe ask's what kinda money I'm on. I know we all do it 'for the love of flying', but in the end it is a highly specialised job that requires a serious amount of training and investment.
Regards, Lost
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Lost hope you don't mind but I thought I'd expand for the people that might not follow the link
Wish this one was in the airline forum.
Mike's Blog #1: 'Pilots on Food Stamps'
Pilots on Food Stamps
By Michael Moore
We're on the descent from 20,000 feet in the air when the flight attendant leans over the elderly woman next to me and taps me on the shoulder.
"I'm listening to Lady Gaga," I say as I remove just one of the ear buds. I know not this Lady Gaga, but her performance last week on SNL was fascinating.
"The pilots would like to see you in the cockpit when we land," she says with a southern drawl.
"Did I do something wrong?"
"No. They have something to show you." (The last time an employee of an airline wanted to show me something it was her written reprimand for eating an in-flight meal without paying for it. "Yes," she said, "we have to pay for our own meals on board now.")
The plane landed and I stepped into the cockpit. "Read this," the first officer said. He handed me a letter from the airline to him. It was headlined "LETTER OF CONCERN." It seems this poor fellow had taken three sick days in the past year. The letter was a warning not to take another one -- or else.
"Great," I said. "Just what I want -- you coming to work sick, flying me up in the air and asking to borrow the barf bag from my seatback pocket."
He then showed me his pay stub. He took home $405 this week. My life was completely and totally in his hands for the past hour and he's paid less than the kid who delivers my pizza.
I told the guys that I have a whole section in my new movie about how pilots are treated (using pilots as only one example of how people's wages have been slashed and the middle class decimated). In the movie I interview a pilot for a major airline who made $17,000 last year. For four months he was eligible -- and received -- food stamps. Another pilot in the film has a second job as a dog walker.
"I have a second job!," the two pilots said in unison. One is a substitute teacher. The other works in a coffee shop. You know, maybe it's just me, but the two occupations whose workers shouldn't be humpin' a second job are brain surgeons and airline pilots. Call me crazy.
I told them about how Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger (the pilot who safely landed the jet in the Hudson River) had testified in Congress that no pilot he knows wants any of their children to become a pilot. Pilots, he said, are completely demoralized. He spoke of how his pay has been cut 40% and his own pension eliminated. Most of the TV news didn't cover his remarks and the congressmen quickly forgot them. They just wanted him to play the role of "HERO," but he was on a more important mission. He's in my movie.
"I hadn't heard anywhere that this stuff about the airlines is in this new movie," the pilot said.
"No, you wouldn't," I replied. "The press likes to talk about me, not the movie."
And it's true. I've been surprised (and slightly annoyed) that, with all that's been written and talked about "Capitalism: A Love Story," very little attention has been paid the mind-blowing stuff in the film: pilots on food stamps, companies secretly taking out life insurance policies on employees and hoping they die young so the company can collect, judges getting kickbacks from the private prison industry for sending innocent people (kids) to be locked up. The profit motive -- it's a killer.
Especially when your pilot started his day at 6am working at the local Starbucks
Pilots on Food Stamps
By Michael Moore
We're on the descent from 20,000 feet in the air when the flight attendant leans over the elderly woman next to me and taps me on the shoulder.
"I'm listening to Lady Gaga," I say as I remove just one of the ear buds. I know not this Lady Gaga, but her performance last week on SNL was fascinating.
"The pilots would like to see you in the cockpit when we land," she says with a southern drawl.
"Did I do something wrong?"
"No. They have something to show you." (The last time an employee of an airline wanted to show me something it was her written reprimand for eating an in-flight meal without paying for it. "Yes," she said, "we have to pay for our own meals on board now.")
The plane landed and I stepped into the cockpit. "Read this," the first officer said. He handed me a letter from the airline to him. It was headlined "LETTER OF CONCERN." It seems this poor fellow had taken three sick days in the past year. The letter was a warning not to take another one -- or else.
"Great," I said. "Just what I want -- you coming to work sick, flying me up in the air and asking to borrow the barf bag from my seatback pocket."
He then showed me his pay stub. He took home $405 this week. My life was completely and totally in his hands for the past hour and he's paid less than the kid who delivers my pizza.
I told the guys that I have a whole section in my new movie about how pilots are treated (using pilots as only one example of how people's wages have been slashed and the middle class decimated). In the movie I interview a pilot for a major airline who made $17,000 last year. For four months he was eligible -- and received -- food stamps. Another pilot in the film has a second job as a dog walker.
"I have a second job!," the two pilots said in unison. One is a substitute teacher. The other works in a coffee shop. You know, maybe it's just me, but the two occupations whose workers shouldn't be humpin' a second job are brain surgeons and airline pilots. Call me crazy.
I told them about how Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger (the pilot who safely landed the jet in the Hudson River) had testified in Congress that no pilot he knows wants any of their children to become a pilot. Pilots, he said, are completely demoralized. He spoke of how his pay has been cut 40% and his own pension eliminated. Most of the TV news didn't cover his remarks and the congressmen quickly forgot them. They just wanted him to play the role of "HERO," but he was on a more important mission. He's in my movie.
"I hadn't heard anywhere that this stuff about the airlines is in this new movie," the pilot said.
"No, you wouldn't," I replied. "The press likes to talk about me, not the movie."
And it's true. I've been surprised (and slightly annoyed) that, with all that's been written and talked about "Capitalism: A Love Story," very little attention has been paid the mind-blowing stuff in the film: pilots on food stamps, companies secretly taking out life insurance policies on employees and hoping they die young so the company can collect, judges getting kickbacks from the private prison industry for sending innocent people (kids) to be locked up. The profit motive -- it's a killer.
Especially when your pilot started his day at 6am working at the local Starbucks
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Was just reading some of the comments on the link - One stood out to me in particular.
I haven't often heard of Pilot Strikes, and a quick Google search reveals that 1989 seems to have been the last one. With all of the comments on here about the reduction in peoples terms and conditions, Why hasn't there been more Industrial Action from pilots? Or hasn't it gotten bad enough yet? I realise that T&C's in America seem much worse. Wouldn't it cost these companies more to train a new CPL on a jet or turboprop than it would to increase pay accordingly?
Sounds like the perfect time for a strike, you can't just go out and pull guys off the street to replace pilots. All the underpaid pilots from every airline should get together and stand firm. If they don't have a union they need one. Even a short strike could put a lot of these airlines out of business.
rant
I'm tired of being paid less than the person behind the reception desk, or the teeneager flipping burgers full time at Maca's.
IT IS AN INSULT.
Pay for your own endorsements, pay to travel for an interview, pay your way through the sim session, 'negotiated' per diems, pay your own asic, pay your own medical, pay your own documents, share a room with another crewmember, split duty, pay this pay that... does money grow on trees - I earn my wage just to pay to work? It's ridiculous. I am on award salary.
I assume that any other industry would have striked by now.
IT IS AN INSULT.
Pay for your own endorsements, pay to travel for an interview, pay your way through the sim session, 'negotiated' per diems, pay your own asic, pay your own medical, pay your own documents, share a room with another crewmember, split duty, pay this pay that... does money grow on trees - I earn my wage just to pay to work? It's ridiculous. I am on award salary.
I assume that any other industry would have striked by now.
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Amazed there hasn't yet been a major strike. We see teachers, nurses etc. all working off the job. The whole thing is 
disgusting, and forces you to seriously consider just flying for leisure.
Imagine the chaos if every discontent pilot in an Airline walked off the job. The level of difficulty, training, investment and responsibility is not justified through remuneration.
Financially, it would be much more beneficial to become Cabin Crew. Literally. A good friend of mine, left his Cabin Crew position to persue flight training - he was on over $100k.
disgusting, and forces you to seriously consider just flying for leisure. Imagine the chaos if every discontent pilot in an Airline walked off the job. The level of difficulty, training, investment and responsibility is not justified through remuneration.
Financially, it would be much more beneficial to become Cabin Crew. Literally. A good friend of mine, left his Cabin Crew position to persue flight training - he was on over $100k.
Perhaps with the impending pilot shortage, the time is ripe to do something like this. I am certain, given the opportunity to prove a point, all unions will be happy to co-operate to achieve an outcome. This is a profession, not a hobby.
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Shiny Jet Syndrome.
Can't see a strike of an type happening now or in the future. The only way you can force conditions up is to be super hard nosed during your eba votes.
Couple of years ago the VB guys were and things improved a little.
Can't see a strike of an type happening now or in the future. The only way you can force conditions up is to be super hard nosed during your eba votes.
Couple of years ago the VB guys were and things improved a little.
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Pilots are d--- heads:
When it comes to standing together, I have said this before on here if some one wants to search, PARK THE ALUMINUM TUBING ON A WORLD WIDE SCALE! but alas it will never happen, egos and careers get in the way of doing whats right.
Have another string to your bow:
I agree! my kids want to fly, I am doing my dam best to steer them in another direction.
This problem is in my opinion,(bring it on) caused by PILOTS: because we wont stick together.
One of my mates of 30+ yrs is "just a bit" outspoken, he works on his "T" theory! or as he refers to it as the MAS theory, MONEY, ATTITUDE,****E, money has to be enough to hold the attitude, and allow for a bit of ****e carrying, if Money decreases, and the ****e increases(Compliance/ new wheel being reinvented, & training) then the ATTITUDE suffers.
He recently left Nadi after they devalued the dollar 20%, with the exchange rate following another 7%, he gave them the opportunity, they played him out, he fell on his sword and departed without finishing his notice because it was costing him money to be there.
I tell him to get on PP, his reply is what the f--k for?
He refers to me as a aviation whore!
What really pisses me off is that he is so f---ing right!
H/Snort
Have another string to your bow:
I agree! my kids want to fly, I am doing my dam best to steer them in another direction.
This problem is in my opinion,(bring it on) caused by PILOTS: because we wont stick together.
One of my mates of 30+ yrs is "just a bit" outspoken, he works on his "T" theory! or as he refers to it as the MAS theory, MONEY, ATTITUDE,****E, money has to be enough to hold the attitude, and allow for a bit of ****e carrying, if Money decreases, and the ****e increases(Compliance/ new wheel being reinvented, & training) then the ATTITUDE suffers.
He recently left Nadi after they devalued the dollar 20%, with the exchange rate following another 7%, he gave them the opportunity, they played him out, he fell on his sword and departed without finishing his notice because it was costing him money to be there.
I tell him to get on PP, his reply is what the f--k for?
He refers to me as a aviation whore!
What really pisses me off is that he is so f---ing right!
H/Snort
$ in their eyes
Yup 60 mins last night talked of the boom returning to mining towns.
Candid interview with a lady who (don't quote me) said she didn't have any mining skills. But she did learn to drive a dump truck for 100K+.
And that is for 1 week on, 1 week off.
"Mav, do you have that number for that truck driving school, Truckmaster I think it was...."
Candid interview with a lady who (don't quote me) said she didn't have any mining skills. But she did learn to drive a dump truck for 100K+.
And that is for 1 week on, 1 week off.
"Mav, do you have that number for that truck driving school, Truckmaster I think it was...."
There must be some limit where one has to think it isn't worth it, has it been worth it for you? Genuine question from someone who has just started their career. (Let's take into account the current conditions and future of the industry)
Personally I wouldn't recommend anyone be a pilot in this country. IF you had EU citizenship and the $$ or could work in some 3rd world country's airline and bypass all the GA BS then that would be OK. Places like Australia, NZ, USA and Canada just are not worth the effort unless your life long passion is aviation.
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and it'll only get worse!
The other big issue is that people have accepted that most will vote yes to eba's that have poor pay rises with conditions being eroded each and every time because they know that they are simply going to leave to get the conditions they want. (See another thread with pilots going to Air China: the new Emirates).
In the end all the experienced pilots will end up contracting elsewhere.
The other big issue is that people have accepted that most will vote yes to eba's that have poor pay rises with conditions being eroded each and every time because they know that they are simply going to leave to get the conditions they want. (See another thread with pilots going to Air China: the new Emirates).
In the end all the experienced pilots will end up contracting elsewhere.
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Part of the problem is a weak union - AFAP.
As a GA pilot you are not represented at all, as an airline pilot you get lost in the system. The only real way to get improved conditions is to band together and ask for it. Unfortunately like every other professional group (nurses, teachers etc), pilots can not organise this on their own, and this is where a union comes in.
And all we got is AFAP, the people that negotiate the award, then don't enforce it. I have said it before, and will say it again - How can we be represented by people (AFAP) that are so out of touch with the industry, that they don't even know what the award is themselves.
I was a member, my employer was underpaying me and generally bullying the pilots, contacted AFAP, and was promptly told that they could not and would not help me, or my colleagues. When I cancelled my membership the not so helpful lady on the phone told me in no uncertain terms that I would not be receiving my magazine and AFAP calendar next year. HA!
Eh, same old rant, same old bitterness. I've put my neck out a few times, for myself and others. Almost every time I have had it sliced, the scars will never heal.
Regards, Lost
P.S. Thanks for the help Mr Hat, makes it much easier when the story is embedded in the conversation rather than a link, I'm still learning all the etiquette for forum posting.
As a GA pilot you are not represented at all, as an airline pilot you get lost in the system. The only real way to get improved conditions is to band together and ask for it. Unfortunately like every other professional group (nurses, teachers etc), pilots can not organise this on their own, and this is where a union comes in.
And all we got is AFAP, the people that negotiate the award, then don't enforce it. I have said it before, and will say it again - How can we be represented by people (AFAP) that are so out of touch with the industry, that they don't even know what the award is themselves.
I was a member, my employer was underpaying me and generally bullying the pilots, contacted AFAP, and was promptly told that they could not and would not help me, or my colleagues. When I cancelled my membership the not so helpful lady on the phone told me in no uncertain terms that I would not be receiving my magazine and AFAP calendar next year. HA!
Eh, same old rant, same old bitterness. I've put my neck out a few times, for myself and others. Almost every time I have had it sliced, the scars will never heal.
Regards, Lost
P.S. Thanks for the help Mr Hat, makes it much easier when the story is embedded in the conversation rather than a link, I'm still learning all the etiquette for forum posting.
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????
In our commercial world you get paid what you are worth. If you are not getting enough have a look around you. There will always be suckers who will spend lots of money and effort to fly anything, even for no pay.
While GA is just a training ground for airline pilots there will always be a plentiful supply of hopeful, desperate, broke newbies. An oversupply. So their services will be cheap.
This is now spreading to the regionals and the majors. It will take a while to make major changes to the major airlines, bu the effects can be seen already. Some of their T&C's are being eroded.
One solution would be to change the legislation so that much more multicrew training and a multi crew licence is required for airline operations (as an F/O) with little requirement for GA hours.
That way there would be two streams of trainees and each would be training for the appropriate skills for the operation they want to go to. And GA would not be polluted by people who do not want to be there. So there would not be the oversupply of desperate CPL hplders who now cheapen the GA T&C's and pull down the T&C's in the regionals, and the majors.
While GA is just a training ground for airline pilots there will always be a plentiful supply of hopeful, desperate, broke newbies. An oversupply. So their services will be cheap.
This is now spreading to the regionals and the majors. It will take a while to make major changes to the major airlines, bu the effects can be seen already. Some of their T&C's are being eroded.
One solution would be to change the legislation so that much more multicrew training and a multi crew licence is required for airline operations (as an F/O) with little requirement for GA hours.
That way there would be two streams of trainees and each would be training for the appropriate skills for the operation they want to go to. And GA would not be polluted by people who do not want to be there. So there would not be the oversupply of desperate CPL hplders who now cheapen the GA T&C's and pull down the T&C's in the regionals, and the majors.
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Food stamps is a great idea, wish we had them over here. Would make life easier.
Like a few others, I'm stuck in the food chain (not very high up as well may I add but stuck none the less), still in GA working my way up. Times aren't the best but I guess everyone is experiencing it. I'm counting myself lucky that i have a job right now.
As far as the employer is concerned, if we aint happy with it, theres always someone to replace us. A bit hard to strike if your job isnt secure and you can put it in jeopardy instantly (but thats GA I suppose). I guess it doesnt help other staff aren't part of the union, so if there was a strike I'd be the sole one at the picket line. Anyway, I'm just looking at it as a 'character building' experience for now (I certainly know I've grown alot of patience since I started flying commercially just over a year ago), and hopefully it wont be too much longer for something else to come along.
I presume alot of guys here work second jobs as well. I know I do. Work my 2nd job 5-6 nights a week and my flying job daily. And like many in the country I get paid per flying hour which varies weekly and is not steady income. The biggest thing is waiting on the ground for any flying and not being paid for alot of the work that you end up doing. I know guys who teach classes for free to get flying. Others who do Sim training for free just to get some Multi IFR hours (of which they do for free anyway). A friend of a friend works as a Pizza delivery Boy at night while instructing in the day (on a pay per flying hour basis), and he eats leftover pizzas a few nights a week to save money on food. I work with a guy who works a full time job, then walks to the airport every evening to get a flight (an hour to airport and an hour home), as well as being there on weekends. And dont get me started about an ex-collegue who lived off part of his girlfriends student allowance to get by. The list goes on and on...
All we do is bear it for now, and sooner or later something better will come up. One thing this industry has taught me and my mates is that if you don't look at a possible positive outcome at the end , it gets real tough real quick. We are very lucky to have one or two more experienced guys who have 'been there and done that' to keep us motivated along the way.
Anyway, it would be interesting to see what this movie actually says and the story it tells. I know of many guys who struggle during their GA phase and alot of interesting people in not so fortunate situations (financially). But the bright side is Once you get to the regionals (in NZ anyway) at least the pay is alright and the Miser lifestyle can slowly vanish. Wish I could say the same for our friends flying in the US of A.
Like a few others, I'm stuck in the food chain (not very high up as well may I add but stuck none the less), still in GA working my way up. Times aren't the best but I guess everyone is experiencing it. I'm counting myself lucky that i have a job right now.
As far as the employer is concerned, if we aint happy with it, theres always someone to replace us. A bit hard to strike if your job isnt secure and you can put it in jeopardy instantly (but thats GA I suppose). I guess it doesnt help other staff aren't part of the union, so if there was a strike I'd be the sole one at the picket line. Anyway, I'm just looking at it as a 'character building' experience for now (I certainly know I've grown alot of patience since I started flying commercially just over a year ago), and hopefully it wont be too much longer for something else to come along.
I presume alot of guys here work second jobs as well. I know I do. Work my 2nd job 5-6 nights a week and my flying job daily. And like many in the country I get paid per flying hour which varies weekly and is not steady income. The biggest thing is waiting on the ground for any flying and not being paid for alot of the work that you end up doing. I know guys who teach classes for free to get flying. Others who do Sim training for free just to get some Multi IFR hours (of which they do for free anyway). A friend of a friend works as a Pizza delivery Boy at night while instructing in the day (on a pay per flying hour basis), and he eats leftover pizzas a few nights a week to save money on food. I work with a guy who works a full time job, then walks to the airport every evening to get a flight (an hour to airport and an hour home), as well as being there on weekends. And dont get me started about an ex-collegue who lived off part of his girlfriends student allowance to get by. The list goes on and on...
All we do is bear it for now, and sooner or later something better will come up. One thing this industry has taught me and my mates is that if you don't look at a possible positive outcome at the end , it gets real tough real quick. We are very lucky to have one or two more experienced guys who have 'been there and done that' to keep us motivated along the way.
Anyway, it would be interesting to see what this movie actually says and the story it tells. I know of many guys who struggle during their GA phase and alot of interesting people in not so fortunate situations (financially). But the bright side is Once you get to the regionals (in NZ anyway) at least the pay is alright and the Miser lifestyle can slowly vanish. Wish I could say the same for our friends flying in the US of A.
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Peter - And I presume 'ZKSUJ' is lying to push his agenda also? The thread isn't about the credibility of Michael Moore, it's about the atrocious conditions which far too many professional pilots face on a daily basis. We don't need Michael Moore to highlight that.
As someone looking for his first job i'm getting to meet a lot of pilots from GA up to RPT and as far as I can see this is wide spread across the entire industry. Your all quite correct in saying that this can't go on, its hard to link everyone together especially with a union that seems to do very little to bring us together, or perhaps its our own fault for not having enough enough people becoming members of AFAP and those who are not voicing their opinions.
In respect to gathering people together i'd say that AFAP probably has the best chance of doing this but needs motivation. In general i'm not sure what PPrunes stand point would be, but perhaps someone with some standing in the community should attempt to organise an online petition? There are a number of websites that allow the creation of free petitions online that people can sign their names to, the link to this petition could be posted on the forums and with enough people behind it AFAP would have no choice but to move on it?
In respect to gathering people together i'd say that AFAP probably has the best chance of doing this but needs motivation. In general i'm not sure what PPrunes stand point would be, but perhaps someone with some standing in the community should attempt to organise an online petition? There are a number of websites that allow the creation of free petitions online that people can sign their names to, the link to this petition could be posted on the forums and with enough people behind it AFAP would have no choice but to move on it?
