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ATPLs or MECIR??

Old 31st Aug 2009, 12:29
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ATPLs or MECIR??

Hi all,

Basically Ive just finished my CPL i have 180hrs and im wondering what the next step is. Ive narrowed it down to two options;

1. Go to maroochy do the aft course for the ATPL's, punch out a night VFR and initial multi engine rating or

2. Do a Multi engine command instrument rating.

Really i just want to know what will make me more employable and would have the highest chance of getting me to the airlines quickest? AND what everyone else out there did after their commercial licence was in the bag??

Thanks heaps
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Old 31st Aug 2009, 12:46
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the highest chance of getting me to the airlines quickest?
What's the rush??

When I finished my CPL, I had my MECIR and no ATPL's. Now, here I am, 3,000hrs on, with more than enough experience to hold an ATPL, and no ATPL subjects, . Ohhhh to have my time over. I would have done them straight up!

With things being slow at the moment job wise, I would probably suggest doing the ATPL's now, and worrying about the MECIR later when you're getting close to needing it. Things aren't flying by so quickly at the moment, so the chance of you needing that MECIR within the first 12 months of employment, are pretty slim.

Cheers

morno
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Old 31st Aug 2009, 12:50
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Who gave you the advice?
... the bloke who's going to make the money from you?
VERY few get into a twin or an IFR aircraft for quite some time. You pay to get full bottle and then have to pay squillions to keep current or lose it.
Start at the bottom.
If you have the money for instrument ratings or multi engine endorsements, put it somewhere where you can't get at it when you're a bit short for a
p!ssup and get those skills when you are at the right stage of experience.
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Old 31st Aug 2009, 12:56
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Do your ATPL's, do a NVFR and get an initial multi. Do your MECIR when you need it
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Old 31st Aug 2009, 13:08
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Why didn't your school do your NVFR as part of your CPL?

Oh...that's right. They get more money if you do it separately!

You mightn't get a job needing your MECIR straight away, but it will be even longer before you get one needing your ATPL.
Get the extra hours by doing your MECIR. It will put you in a slightly better position than someone with a bare 150 hrs.
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Old 31st Aug 2009, 14:34
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From someone who struggled through ATPL's through distance education, albeit a long time ago before AFT even existed. DO THE ATPL's!!!! I repeat: DO THE ATPL's. Also, as you haven't got a NVFR, do that too, never know when you might need it, and useful for starting to get those 100hrs night to hold an ATPL. Once you have a job in a remote area, it costs a lot just to get somewhere to do an ATPL course, so do it now whilst you have the time and $$$. The M/E CIR can come later though an initial multi MAY be of assistance once you have some experience under your belt.
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Old 31st Aug 2009, 23:11
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Def make a start on your ATPL subjects, don't waste your money on a rating that you'll not use and get uncurrent with. Also go out and get ****faced often
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Old 31st Aug 2009, 23:54
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Thanks for the advice everyone! Think im definately gonna go the ATPL's route, it makes sence what has been said above with not being able to use a MECIR for a while anyway..

Thanks again!
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Old 31st Aug 2009, 23:58
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Do them both if you can, get the atpls out of the way, and do a MECIR, you wont have to worry about a NVFR then either. How much IFR renewals are though, im not sure, $1500? I guess you will be paying for these every year to stay current until you need to use it. To they guys in the game, do you normaly get your renewal covered by your operator?
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Old 1st Sep 2009, 01:31
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Do the ATPL's first while the CPL theory is fresh in your mind. Once you're working it's hard to get time off to do them later.
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Old 1st Sep 2009, 01:36
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Flying to me is like a game of chess. You need to line all the right pieces up to get 'checkmate' i.e an Airline gig. You are also playing this game of chess with every other aspiring CPL and also the operators who's entry minima is as flexible as it needs to be to keep the supply of pilots coming.

When I did my CPL it was all about trying to get a bit of 210 time, then Baron/310 time during the MECIR. The last few years you didn't need any, just a CPL and you were off.

When you have over 1000 hours you will be looking for multi engine work and once you have 500 multi the entry requirements for some operators will specify a certain amount of renewals. Usually at least 2.

Scenario 1

Lets say best case scenario you work on singles for a year and get a job on a baron year 2. If you did your MECIR straight away you will have 2 renewals around 1500TT and 500 multi and no ATPL. You can't get a job with a regional without the ATPL and your boss won't give you 6 weeks off for the ATPL's so you have to quit and hope you will be able to source a job at the end of it. Suddenly we have a GFC. You can't get a job with a single operator as you are two experienced and they know you will leave at the first opportunity. The Airlines are not hiring and the regionals now want 2000TT with 100 night and a full ATPL. You are short of night hours to hold the ATPL. You shake your head and get a job at coles.

Scenario 2

You Complete the ATPL and land a charter/instructing job sometime later. You now have 1000 hours want to move onto a twin but are so remote you need to take a fair whack of time off and at great expense to travel and complete it. The guys who started after you are jumping you and getting on the twins and you are becoming really depressed with the company and your mind is not on the job. The boss won't give you time off to get your MECIR so in desperation you quit to do the MECIR in the hope that you will land a multi engine gig on completion (or at least your old job back). You have a MECIR now after 4 months slip by due to being stuffed around by the flying school. We have a GFC and no-one is hiring leaving you stuck with a MECIR no multi engine time and the operators that are hiring want 200 multi minimum with 2 renewals. You shake your head and get a job at woolies.

Scenario 3

You get ATPL's MECIR and head north. You land a job progress from singles to twins and have over 1500TT with 2 renewals and are slowly building the night for the ATPL, we have a GFC and it doesn't matter. You are sitting sweet flying a twin building your command time waiting for the right opportunity to strike when the irons hot again. You land an Airline gig in 2012.

Which scenario are you guys?

Checkmate
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Old 1st Sep 2009, 15:33
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I dont know why you havnt considered it in the current climate, probably not interested but its you're choice. If you want to rush off to the airlines the logical path is through instructing. Rating done in 8 weeks, spend the next 3 months doing 5hours a week, which sounds rubbish BUT you're working, you're getting some hours, you're getting paid and you have time for your ATPL's. After that the hours will just start rolling in and you're left with you next choice, MECIR and push for charter, MECIR, Grade 1 and thence META.

Need to consider everything here. You're after set hours not any kind of work. Multi in a PA-44 it looks the same as PA-31 on paper to an airline. Remember what the airlines are looking for too, they dont care if you can get a heavy Baron into an ag strip on one engine during the middle of the wet season. They want to see that you can work in a multi-crew environment conforming to their SOP's and that you know the regs like you wrote them. Whats a better environment to learn that in?

Anyway, like I said, your call but I know which path I and all of my colleagues chose and then there are those who chose... the former.

Things to consider:
I'm not in an airline but that's my choice I'm where I want to be however all of my previous colleagues had instructing backgrounds and First job to airline was between 3-5 years.

You can be a slacker and stay in the City.

You can hang onto the dream that this COULD be a 9-5 job

Despite what you will think at the time, you will get treated the BEST out of the whole industry as an instructor.

(It's like 'Shamwow', sells itself.)

Cheers,

Just another EOCVictim
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Old 1st Sep 2009, 17:53
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interesting thread, i hope to be in jmoody's position (CPL completed) in the next few months, so its good to get as much advice as possible on this.
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Old 2nd Sep 2009, 00:34
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Hmmmm, I dunno if I agree with everything you're saying there Eocvictim.

DON'T go instructing if you don't want to teach. Otherwise all you're doing, is making your students lives hell.

If you're the kind of person who can't stand watching someone else do all the flying and f*ck it up, then I suggest you don't instruct. Go do charter. It's much more enjoyable, and despite what Eoc says, I tend to think charter guys get better treatment over instructors.

And I don't know if I'd call instructing, "multi crew operations", . Sure there's 2 of you there, but it's instructing, not multi crew.

morno
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Old 2nd Sep 2009, 00:59
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dont know why you havnt considered it in the current climate, probably not interested but its you're choice. If you want to rush off to the airlines the logical path is through instructing.
I think you will find the airlines traditionally prefer charter guys. Flight Instructors without any real world experience have very distorted views of commercial aviation and once become ingrained in their ways are very hard to convert to a charter pilot.

Multi in a PA-44 it looks the same as PA-31 on paper to an airline.
There is a big difference and they know it!

Remember what the airlines are looking for too, they dont care if you can get a heavy Baron into an ag strip on one engine during the middle of the wet season.
This is called experience and is something that they are looking for. Wet season flying is a different kettle of fish to circuits in a 152 or ME instructing in capital cities.

They want to see that you can work in a multi-crew environment conforming to their SOP's and that you know the regs like you wrote them. Whats a better environment to learn that in?
You will have a very good grasp of the regs in charter as you need to know the rules you sometimes bend!

When you are required to fly multi crew you will adapt just as everybody has that went before you. It's not very hard, you just need to tell the guy next to you what you plan to do and ask him for suggestions. The rest is standard calls and idiot proof (much easier than single pilot IFR)

Anyway, like I said, your call but I know which path I and all of my colleagues chose and then there are those who chose... the former.
Of course, thats because all your colleagues are instructors! Just as mine are charter guys! I bet you all talk about charter like you wrote the book on it too!

Things to consider:
I'm not in an airline but that's my choice I'm where I want to be however all of my previous colleagues had instructing backgrounds and First job to airline was between 3-5 years.
Traditionally charter is much quicker to the Airlines if that is what you are chasing. As an instructor you need to become a grade 1 to get any multi engine work, and that can take 3 years in itself. Then there are the 50 hours command for your META standing in your way which is a huge hurdle in itself

You can be a slacker and stay in the City.

You can hang onto the dream that this COULD be a 9-5 job

Despite what you will think at the time, you will get treated the BEST out of the whole industry as an instructor.
Instructors are and always have been treated as the bottom rung in aviation. Most of the time in charter your first job will be full time and paid accordingly. Most operators pay the AFAP award. Becoming an Instructor you need to scab, find students, work as a contractor, hang around the flying school helping out 7 days a week for free so they will toss you some crumbs occasionally. It is a very demoralizing existence starting out and can take over a year to get the hours to become a senior 3! (has been a bi easier in the last couple of years but prior to that it was nigh on impossible)

And yes I have an instructing background as well however I was a charter pilot first in the tropics so I can comment after being on both sides of the fence.

It's a slippery pole to climb and you need to work out the best way for you.
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Old 2nd Sep 2009, 01:33
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Multi-crew environment in instructing, that's a new one.

j3
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Old 2nd Sep 2009, 01:46
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An interesting thread indeed....

I agree with the Goblin and morno. Wise words chaps....

eocvictim, I am interested to see what experiance you are basing your judgements on, ie, how many years have you been in the industry, hours LEGITIMATELY logged in the book (No multi crew 747 you flew on flightsim with your buddy sitting in the kitchen next to you) as well as your airline recruiting experiance, etc.

jmoody - firstly, congratulations on the CPL. I remember mine well, it is a wonderful feeling. And well done also for not resting on your laurels, and looking ahead to the future. Having said that, you will recieve ALL sorts of advice from everyone on here, and including mine, i remind you to take it with a grain of salt and do the things that are right for you.

My advice - NVFR and initial multi are needed for your MECIR. Both are handy if you need to ferry somewhere late, or if you have an early start the following day. I know a lot of bosses are happy for you to do either (schedule and F&D permitting) to allow you to build your night hours. As for the twin, there are sometimes opportunities to do VFR twin work (very rare, but does happen). Either way, when I did my MECIR, it cost me extra time and money cause I didnt have either. Had I known then what I know now!

As the Goblin said, you can not go wrong putting a tick in both boxes. I would suggest doing the atpl's and IREX first while you are still in a study frame of mind. It is impossible to try and study when you are are flying 6 days a week. A CIR might just save your life when you are smashing around in your single and get into a spot of bother. ( Hopefully this never happens as you'll be too smart to get into that situation).

As far as getting a job goes, it aint easy, but that's what makes it all the more rewarding when you get one. You know there are two routes to choose -charter or instructing. Instructing will cost you another rating, but you get to be home with mummy and daddy, in the big smoke with all your emo mates. OR, Charter will cost you a plane ticket to the tin pot town of your choice, a swag, and a pair of thongs (include padlock if you are going to leave them outside in the NT). You wont have Mum and Dad, but you will have your new brothers looking out for you while you scare yourself stupid daily during the wet season, and advising you on the correct usage of Loading System Kilo during the dry. Have a good attitude, and be prepared to do what it takes (except working for free) to get there.

Either way, it is the hours in the book, and your attitude that will get you into the airlines. I would suggest to you not to be in such a rush to get there. Take the time to enjoy GA for what it is. A time to learn your craft and hone your skills. Use each flight to focus on something that will make you a better and safer driver. Enjoy the friends you make that are going to be mates for a lifetime. You never know when one of them is going to call you to tell you about a twin job they have sorted out for you. My GA charter career (cant speak for instructors) has been the biggest adventure of my life. I have been to many places, seen things the average Joe will never get the chance to see, and made some of the best mates a bloke could ask for. Wouldn't change a minuite of it for quids!

Best of luck buddy. PM me if you need some more advice.

AGS99
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Old 2nd Sep 2009, 02:03
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jmoody...You've had some good points presented to you here that I'm sure have made you think about what feels right for you. If you think you can handle sitting in a PA28, C152 or C172 for the next couple of years, doing hardly any hands-on flying and enjoying it then maybe instructing is for you. Personally, I don't think I could do it (I haven't tried so I can't knock it completely) but I know just how much I enjoy doing charter or even scenics, where I have control and there is a progression of different aircraft to look forward to. Not to mention the fun you can have outside your comfort zone of the city, going into different strips, meeting different people & making mates for life. At the end of the day its your decision on what you can see yourself doing but I'm putting another vote towards ATPLs, MECIR and going bush.

Disclaimer: I am definitely not an experienced charter pilot (but I'm sure some others here are) and I'm not saying that the bush/charter/scenic option is easy, but it's worth the hard hard yards in my eyes. Good luck with whatever choice you make.
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Old 2nd Sep 2009, 03:01
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I'm not sure where ecovictim instructs but as an instructor I want to clairfy some of his points...

1. Instructing is not multi-crew - there are 2 crew in the a/c but multi-crew flying involved PF/PNF and a whole range of SOP's - while instructing the instructor goes from pilot flying to pilot monitoring to pilot flying and so on many times over the flight.

2. Airlines consider the different types, weights, crew environments & operating enviornments of aircraft you've operated - they would certainly look at a PA31 in charter differently to a BE76 in instructing

3. There are way too many hour building instructors who hate doing it but do it to stay living in a capital city with mum/dad/girlfriend as it is - unless you have a genuine interest in teaching people please don't consider it.

Now I don't buy into all this instructing vs charter crap - I've instructed on & off for years & see the benefits of both. If I was an airline recruiter I'd consider the following as an advantage:

Instructing - better equipped for check/training positions in the future. Maybe better initially in a multi-crew environment as they are use to flying with others, are comfortable with different styles of flying etc. Higher awareness of SOP's, ops manuals etc - because they have to be known back to front & demostrated every day to teach them.
Charter - more aware of customers needs, a lot more use to operating aircraft at their maximum limits (MTOW, MLW, CofG etc), more OTP focused, more experiece in weather conditions etc, have generally flown larger/faster/heavier aircraft in IFR situations. Probably have a better awareness of the regs that are more applicable to airline operations.

Both have their advantages & disadvantages. For me I've loved instructing - I love seeing students pass tests, go solo, land for the first time & realise they can do it - I think being a part of that person's flying journey is priceless. While doing it I've had experiences that have taught me, scared me and made me a better pilot too. Even with that however I'm now looking for charter work myself - I want to see all those different things too and expand my knowledge base.

Do what you know is right for you - not just what you think will be the quickest path into the RHS of a jet - when I get to the RHS of a jet I'll know that I learnt from & loved my journey to get there - not be a bitter ex-GA person who made wrong choices just to accelerate my way upwards.

Happy flying!
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Old 2nd Sep 2009, 03:06
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As others have said...go the bush charter route and don't be in such a hurry.

You will appreciate it when the other crew members are telling 'war stories' on long haul ops, and you can join in.
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