Mega Merged: REX Recruitment/Cadetship and Working for REX
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Correction
CAR 5.172 .2. (a) iii states
70 hours pilot in command which is obtained at AAPA course and its 75 hours instrument flight time for ATPL license. The numbers you are throwing around willy nilly are for low AOC SAAB captain upgrade which the new ICUS program will satisfy these criteria's. Cadets can obtain ATPL criteria in 4 years from graduation. FACTS not rumours.
70 hours pilot in command which is obtained at AAPA course and its 75 hours instrument flight time for ATPL license. The numbers you are throwing around willy nilly are for low AOC SAAB captain upgrade which the new ICUS program will satisfy these criteria's. Cadets can obtain ATPL criteria in 4 years from graduation. FACTS not rumours.
I'm assuming you're adressing me Possible_Cadet (there's imagination for you).
How do you intend gaining the additional 30 hours command for the eventual isssue of your ATPL?
How do you intend gaining a total of 500 hours Multi-Command after the allocation of the max 150 hours ICUS that might be legally logged from the RHS under ICAO annex1? Maybe REX will throw you into the LHS with a Training Captain, Maybe not!
Speaking of ATPL Quals, where did you get the 4 year time frame from, REX HR? Grain of salt on that one my friend. Mind you, ATPL Quals are one thing, Sitting in the LHS as a Qualified Captain is something else. You will need at least 2000 hours total aeronautical experience (but of course you already know that), and amongst other things, the right seniority.
I have no doubt that one day we will see ex REX Cadets as Captains, and IMHO they will be every bit as good, or bad as those who have gone before them. But here's food for thought, by the time you're checked to line as a REX F/O (assuming that's were you're heading), there will probably be 100 ex Cadet F/O's in front of you. The first of these will not be ready for command for another 4 years, assuming of course REX can resolve their regulatory hurdles. In the meantime more junior Direct entry F/O's will continue to "leapfrog" these F/O's for Command. This will most certainly push back their time to Command substantially. Just a few years ago the major airlines took but a handfull of pilots annually. The time to command at most regionals was approx 6 years (no leapfrogging). Things will settle down at the major airlines, and the mass resignations that REX has seen in the past may slow substantially, at least untill the next time, and that may be years! My honest estimate, even if REX sort out the regulatory maze, it will be at least 10 years to command for a Cadet starting now!
If you, like many others a few years ago jumped into this game because of the feeding frenzy 2 years ago, then I'm afraid you have already missed the boat. Something that many unemployed CPLs are now coming to grips with.
You see Possible_Cadet, this thing has more legs than a spider. By all means give it a go, but don't be too quick to dismiss the experience (not necessarily aeronautical) of those who have seen a little of what this game can sometimes dish up. They're facts as well.
How do you intend gaining the additional 30 hours command for the eventual isssue of your ATPL?
How do you intend gaining a total of 500 hours Multi-Command after the allocation of the max 150 hours ICUS that might be legally logged from the RHS under ICAO annex1? Maybe REX will throw you into the LHS with a Training Captain, Maybe not!
Speaking of ATPL Quals, where did you get the 4 year time frame from, REX HR? Grain of salt on that one my friend. Mind you, ATPL Quals are one thing, Sitting in the LHS as a Qualified Captain is something else. You will need at least 2000 hours total aeronautical experience (but of course you already know that), and amongst other things, the right seniority.
I have no doubt that one day we will see ex REX Cadets as Captains, and IMHO they will be every bit as good, or bad as those who have gone before them. But here's food for thought, by the time you're checked to line as a REX F/O (assuming that's were you're heading), there will probably be 100 ex Cadet F/O's in front of you. The first of these will not be ready for command for another 4 years, assuming of course REX can resolve their regulatory hurdles. In the meantime more junior Direct entry F/O's will continue to "leapfrog" these F/O's for Command. This will most certainly push back their time to Command substantially. Just a few years ago the major airlines took but a handfull of pilots annually. The time to command at most regionals was approx 6 years (no leapfrogging). Things will settle down at the major airlines, and the mass resignations that REX has seen in the past may slow substantially, at least untill the next time, and that may be years! My honest estimate, even if REX sort out the regulatory maze, it will be at least 10 years to command for a Cadet starting now!
If you, like many others a few years ago jumped into this game because of the feeding frenzy 2 years ago, then I'm afraid you have already missed the boat. Something that many unemployed CPLs are now coming to grips with.
You see Possible_Cadet, this thing has more legs than a spider. By all means give it a go, but don't be too quick to dismiss the experience (not necessarily aeronautical) of those who have seen a little of what this game can sometimes dish up. They're facts as well.
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Food for thought
Thank you for the response Krusty. It was very clear and concise although not totally directed at you 
. I try to stay out of all the rules and regulations when it comes to my career but i guess it does come back to haunt me every now and then 
.
In the end Krusty i would rather this career than any other. Yes the rose coloured glass' have been put away and i have life experience up my sleeve. Money, security, captain upgrades it all sounds similar to my last job in defence but now i wake up in the morning not launching planes but flying them. I'll let the miss' be the bread winner for the next decade
. I try to stay out of all the rules and regulations when it comes to my career but i guess it does come back to haunt me every now and then .In the end Krusty i would rather this career than any other. Yes the rose coloured glass' have been put away and i have life experience up my sleeve. Money, security, captain upgrades it all sounds similar to my last job in defence but now i wake up in the morning not launching planes but flying them. I'll let the miss' be the bread winner for the next decade
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Quick commands only happen for the guys that have all the quals when the boom happens.
ie; when virgin started they took may guys with 1500 hrs, some are captains now, even emirates took low time guys with 1500 hrs when they got going, and those guys had waited for years if ansett didn't go under it may have been different.
When the industry fires you need to have all the boxes ticked, you will then get lucky as they say. If not you end waiting and waiting in what ever seat and a/c you are in.
You just can't expect to go from zero to command quickly just because you heard of it happening somewhere... its just not the norm.
ie; when virgin started they took may guys with 1500 hrs, some are captains now, even emirates took low time guys with 1500 hrs when they got going, and those guys had waited for years if ansett didn't go under it may have been different.
When the industry fires you need to have all the boxes ticked, you will then get lucky as they say. If not you end waiting and waiting in what ever seat and a/c you are in.
You just can't expect to go from zero to command quickly just because you heard of it happening somewhere... its just not the norm.
Ahh Crikey Possible_Cadet, don't I fel like an assh@le!
Let me tell you something. It took me 9 years in G/A before my first Regional job. Another 6 years before my command came up. Guys I learnt to fly with are now widebody Captains, others have left the industry for good. My progression was slower than some but faster than others. I have sacrificed much, both financially and personally. Do I still wake up in the morning and give thanks for what I have? Despite the fact that I whinge and moan with the best of them; Absolutely yes!
What I'm trying to say is follow your dream, but be under no illusion, the cost can be high. So high that many have looked at it in the cold light of day and taken a more rational path. I meant what I said about 10 years to a command for a Cadet starting now. But hey, if that Cadet were you, you would still be 6 years better off than me in the long run. What you must absolutely not do for one minute is believe the unmittigated BS that REX management and HR will try to spin you. A few of the current Cadets are starting to realise that. Whilst entering only their 3rd year in aviation, they are already starting to get itchy feet. Thinking like that will tear you apart!
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Krusty.
Let me tell you something. It took me 9 years in G/A before my first Regional job. Another 6 years before my command came up. Guys I learnt to fly with are now widebody Captains, others have left the industry for good. My progression was slower than some but faster than others. I have sacrificed much, both financially and personally. Do I still wake up in the morning and give thanks for what I have? Despite the fact that I whinge and moan with the best of them; Absolutely yes!
What I'm trying to say is follow your dream, but be under no illusion, the cost can be high. So high that many have looked at it in the cold light of day and taken a more rational path. I meant what I said about 10 years to a command for a Cadet starting now. But hey, if that Cadet were you, you would still be 6 years better off than me in the long run. What you must absolutely not do for one minute is believe the unmittigated BS that REX management and HR will try to spin you. A few of the current Cadets are starting to realise that. Whilst entering only their 3rd year in aviation, they are already starting to get itchy feet. Thinking like that will tear you apart!
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Krusty.
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ATPL Requirements have changed
Air Transport Pilot (Aeroplane) Licence
Applicants must:
.......
have a total of 1500 hours flight time:
75 hours instrument flight time; and
100 hours at night as pilot in command or as co-pilot.
.......
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Licences, ratings and more
Applicants must:
.......
have a total of 1500 hours flight time:
- including at least 750 hours which must include any of the following:
- at least 250 hours of flight time as pilot in command;
- at least 500 hours of flight time as pilot acting in command under supervision (ICUS);
- at least 250 hours flight time, consisting of at least 70 hours as pilot in command and the balance as ICUS; and
75 hours instrument flight time; and
100 hours at night as pilot in command or as co-pilot.
.......
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Licences, ratings and more
Gidday monocoque.
I did a search of CAR 5.172 and came up with the "previous" requirements for the ATPL.
#Aeronautical Experience:
1500 total flight time of which 750 must include...
By following your link it appears that CASA have recently modified the regs, but have not updated all the links. I noted the differences now are...
The 500 hours ICUS that was the bugbear of airlines with cadet schemes and a Low Capacity AOC, and which the ATOG document was formulated to facilitate, is to satisfy the requirements of the AOC and has nothing to do with the attainment of the "Higher grade of pilots licence". Oooops! D!ckheads!!! The AFAP were all over this at the time, and exposed the authors of this retarded document for the incompetants that they are. So what do they now do, CHANGE THE REGS TO SUIT!
. Then they neatly reduce the total non ICUS command time required to fit in with the 70 hours non ICUS command that these schemes usually provide. Game set and match.
So on the surface it appears that CASA have taken a responsible line in increasing the ICUS requirements of the ATPL from 250 hours to 500 hours because of the reduction in the non ICUS requirements from 100 hours down to 70! The reality of course is that they have have used and abused their position to serve the desires of short sighted airlines and in doing so have reduced the quality of the Australian ATPL
UNBERF#CKINGLIEVERBLE!!!
I did a search of CAR 5.172 and came up with the "previous" requirements for the ATPL.
#Aeronautical Experience:
1500 total flight time of which 750 must include...
- 250 hours PIC (may include 150 hours ICUS)
- 200 hours cross-country flight time (to include 100 hours PIC or ICUS)
- 20 hours crfoss-country as pilot in command
- 75 hours instrument flight time (may include not more than 30 hours ground time)
- 100 hours of flight at night
By following your link it appears that CASA have recently modified the regs, but have not updated all the links. I noted the differences now are...
- 500 hours as ICUS
- at least 250 hours flight time, consisting of at least 70 hours as pilot in command and the balance as ICUS...
The 500 hours ICUS that was the bugbear of airlines with cadet schemes and a Low Capacity AOC, and which the ATOG document was formulated to facilitate, is to satisfy the requirements of the AOC and has nothing to do with the attainment of the "Higher grade of pilots licence". Oooops! D!ckheads!!! The AFAP were all over this at the time, and exposed the authors of this retarded document for the incompetants that they are. So what do they now do, CHANGE THE REGS TO SUIT!
. Then they neatly reduce the total non ICUS command time required to fit in with the 70 hours non ICUS command that these schemes usually provide. Game set and match.So on the surface it appears that CASA have taken a responsible line in increasing the ICUS requirements of the ATPL from 250 hours to 500 hours because of the reduction in the non ICUS requirements from 100 hours down to 70! The reality of course is that they have have used and abused their position to serve the desires of short sighted airlines and in doing so have reduced the quality of the Australian ATPL
UNBERF#CKINGLIEVERBLE!!!
Last edited by KRUSTY 34; 20th Jul 2010 at 20:15.
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70 hours PIC!???!?!?!?!?!!? Thats all you need for a CPL! What a joke.
5.111 Aeronautical experience: commercially trained
persons
(1) For the purposes of subparagraph 5.104 (1) (f) (i), a
commercially trained person’s aeronautical experience must
consist of at least 150 hours of flight time flown as a pilot
during the person’s training course.
(2) For the purposes of subregulation (1), the 150 hours must be
flown in a registered aeroplane and must include:
(a) 70 hours of flight time as pilot in command; and
(b) 20 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command;
and
(c) 10 hours of instrument flight time.
5.111 Aeronautical experience: commercially trained
persons
(1) For the purposes of subparagraph 5.104 (1) (f) (i), a
commercially trained person’s aeronautical experience must
consist of at least 150 hours of flight time flown as a pilot
during the person’s training course.
(2) For the purposes of subregulation (1), the 150 hours must be
flown in a registered aeroplane and must include:
(a) 70 hours of flight time as pilot in command; and
(b) 20 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command;
and
(c) 10 hours of instrument flight time.
Yes, but you do have to have 500 hours ICUS. Which is how CASA will dress this turd up.
To complete this slight of hand the ICUS wll be best performed by F/O's simply logging it when it's their leg, with no supervision whatsoever, other than the usual cockpit gradient from Left to Right.
Congratulations CASA and your airline buddies. You have effectively reduced the experience requirements of the Australian ATPL to a cynical exercise in putting the BIC in the logbook!
A very sad day indeed.
To complete this slight of hand the ICUS wll be best performed by F/O's simply logging it when it's their leg, with no supervision whatsoever, other than the usual cockpit gradient from Left to Right.
Congratulations CASA and your airline buddies. You have effectively reduced the experience requirements of the Australian ATPL to a cynical exercise in putting the BIC in the logbook!
A very sad day indeed.
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"must include any of the following:
at least 250 hours of flight time as pilot in command;
at least 500 hours of flight time as pilot acting in command under supervision (ICUS);
at least 250 hours flight time, consisting of at least 70 hours as pilot in command and the balance as ICUS"
Its actually only 180 hours ICUS, 250-70=180
These requirements have purposely been changed just for REX. 70 Hours as PIC is exactly what REX Cadets will have when leaving the FTC. Isn't CASA supposed to be independent?
at least 250 hours of flight time as pilot in command;
at least 500 hours of flight time as pilot acting in command under supervision (ICUS);
at least 250 hours flight time, consisting of at least 70 hours as pilot in command and the balance as ICUS"
Its actually only 180 hours ICUS, 250-70=180
These requirements have purposely been changed just for REX. 70 Hours as PIC is exactly what REX Cadets will have when leaving the FTC. Isn't CASA supposed to be independent?
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@ KRUSTY
as far as the F/O 34K sallary (42k - 8k a year in repayments) plus the Virgin IB90, 75 & 50 staff travel adding up to 9K annually WITH a ATPL and command after 5 years, it don't sound that shabby... i know a lot of instructors from GA on >35k, with no staff travel, banging their faces against the dash of a warrior or 172 5 years down the track...
you seem to have an expanse of knowledge on the whole scheme, do you think that with this recent ATPL requirement shuffle up the possibility of command with Rex via the cadets is now more realistic?
thanks for opening my eyes to all of Rex's shortcomings anyway
ps. i'm a true fresh rookie with barely 45 hours and under 9 months in aviation, i don't even want to pretend i'm any kind of an expert.. however, i make less than 35k in hospitality, i hate it, and university was not for me (so goodbye to QF cadets) which is why Rex appeals to me, even with all the crap, i don't have folks who will lend me the 40k REX will and at 22 and living solo i don't want to spend 3 years retraining in another profession i'm not interested in to afford to go thru with GA like i wanted to..
as far as the F/O 34K sallary (42k - 8k a year in repayments) plus the Virgin IB90, 75 & 50 staff travel adding up to 9K annually WITH a ATPL and command after 5 years, it don't sound that shabby... i know a lot of instructors from GA on >35k, with no staff travel, banging their faces against the dash of a warrior or 172 5 years down the track...
you seem to have an expanse of knowledge on the whole scheme, do you think that with this recent ATPL requirement shuffle up the possibility of command with Rex via the cadets is now more realistic?
thanks for opening my eyes to all of Rex's shortcomings anyway
ps. i'm a true fresh rookie with barely 45 hours and under 9 months in aviation, i don't even want to pretend i'm any kind of an expert.. however, i make less than 35k in hospitality, i hate it, and university was not for me (so goodbye to QF cadets) which is why Rex appeals to me, even with all the crap, i don't have folks who will lend me the 40k REX will and at 22 and living solo i don't want to spend 3 years retraining in another profession i'm not interested in to afford to go thru with GA like i wanted to..
I think you're fairly right on all counts catas420. The REX cadetship is not that bad when you take all the alternatives into consideration. In fact I'll go a step further and say it's probably the way of the future, and not just for REX.
The whole reason that the Cadetship came into being was the realisation by REX management that they could not hold on to their pilots in times of high demand by the major airlines. Back in the old days, they would simply go on a recruiting drive, and that's exactly what they did 3 years ago. During the second half of that drive, REX discovered that they were unable to find suitable candidates to meet the existing requirements, so they lowered (quite drastically I might add) the requirements! In the end REX were litterally scraping the bottom of the G/A barrel. Not necessarily because the applicants were any less capable than those previously (well mostly), but the level of participation in the profession had dropped by a factor of Ten over the past decade. Every man and his dog knew this, but REX management failed (untill later) to grasp it.
What really rubbed salt into the wound was that no sooner had these new recruits been checked to line, then many were snapped up by the Majors. REX could do one of two things, Actvely compete for skilled labour, or find way to prevent their new F/O's from leaving. Whallah! Cadetship and captive workforce.
Then along comes CASA and lends a friendly ear to the bleating of REX management. Convieniently the REGS are changed to make the attainment of command for ex-Cadets more realistic (an answer to one of your questions).
Now REX haven't actively attacked the Terms an Conditions of it's pilots for a few years now. Some may say to it's credit. The fact is of course REX cannot really go any lower, or they run the risk of the only group of candidates (cadets) from simply going somewhere else, or indeed embarking on a diferent career.
As far as flying with cadets go, they are on average every bit as capable as their general entry counterparts, albeit lacking in broad experience. The only problem I've seen has been an expectation by some of them that Command will come up in a much shorter time frame than what is logically required. One such ex-cadet, now F/O, remarked to me that if he had to sit in the RHS for 3 years he wouldn't know if he could handle that!!! I didn't take it personally because he was quick to point out it had nothing to do with flying with the likes of me, but I did wonder just where his head was at? They're a couple like this bloke, and their unreasonable expectations have been fuelled by the lies told to them at interview. The attitude is even more puzzleing when you consider they will have to fly nearly 4000 hours as a co-pilot just to meet one of the min regulatory requirements. Even at max hours, thats around 5 years!
Anyway the changes to the REGs will mean that REX mangement don't have to tell as many lies, but if a quick command is your thing, then the realities of the situation may be a little confronting.
Good luck with whatever you decide, but on balance you could do worse.
Krusty.
The whole reason that the Cadetship came into being was the realisation by REX management that they could not hold on to their pilots in times of high demand by the major airlines. Back in the old days, they would simply go on a recruiting drive, and that's exactly what they did 3 years ago. During the second half of that drive, REX discovered that they were unable to find suitable candidates to meet the existing requirements, so they lowered (quite drastically I might add) the requirements! In the end REX were litterally scraping the bottom of the G/A barrel. Not necessarily because the applicants were any less capable than those previously (well mostly), but the level of participation in the profession had dropped by a factor of Ten over the past decade. Every man and his dog knew this, but REX management failed (untill later) to grasp it.
What really rubbed salt into the wound was that no sooner had these new recruits been checked to line, then many were snapped up by the Majors. REX could do one of two things, Actvely compete for skilled labour, or find way to prevent their new F/O's from leaving. Whallah! Cadetship and captive workforce.
Then along comes CASA and lends a friendly ear to the bleating of REX management. Convieniently the REGS are changed to make the attainment of command for ex-Cadets more realistic (an answer to one of your questions).
Now REX haven't actively attacked the Terms an Conditions of it's pilots for a few years now. Some may say to it's credit. The fact is of course REX cannot really go any lower, or they run the risk of the only group of candidates (cadets) from simply going somewhere else, or indeed embarking on a diferent career.
As far as flying with cadets go, they are on average every bit as capable as their general entry counterparts, albeit lacking in broad experience. The only problem I've seen has been an expectation by some of them that Command will come up in a much shorter time frame than what is logically required. One such ex-cadet, now F/O, remarked to me that if he had to sit in the RHS for 3 years he wouldn't know if he could handle that!!! I didn't take it personally because he was quick to point out it had nothing to do with flying with the likes of me, but I did wonder just where his head was at? They're a couple like this bloke, and their unreasonable expectations have been fuelled by the lies told to them at interview. The attitude is even more puzzleing when you consider they will have to fly nearly 4000 hours as a co-pilot just to meet one of the min regulatory requirements. Even at max hours, thats around 5 years!
Anyway the changes to the REGs will mean that REX mangement don't have to tell as many lies, but if a quick command is your thing, then the realities of the situation may be a little confronting.
Good luck with whatever you decide, but on balance you could do worse.
Krusty.
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@KRUSTY
thanks for taking the time to field that one for me. i agree with you completely and your comments re: overly ambitious cadets, is an aspect i've been warned of from day one.
i am however in this for the career, spending the last 4 years working like a dog to pay the rent and save up for my private, well, 5 years of a fresh job flying around Australia, sounds all right to me. even if i have to sell a small portion of my soul
my ultimate dream is to get involved with the RFDS eventually and establish myself in country Aus away from the cities.
i have interviews with Rex in Wagga next week and thanks to the posts of yourselves and others that i have read on pprune i will be making a much more informed decision with a much better understanding of the risks involved.
thank you all for the posts. i am a newbie to pprune but all ready see it as being a fantastic resource. cheers
thanks for taking the time to field that one for me. i agree with you completely and your comments re: overly ambitious cadets, is an aspect i've been warned of from day one.
i am however in this for the career, spending the last 4 years working like a dog to pay the rent and save up for my private, well, 5 years of a fresh job flying around Australia, sounds all right to me. even if i have to sell a small portion of my soul
my ultimate dream is to get involved with the RFDS eventually and establish myself in country Aus away from the cities.
i have interviews with Rex in Wagga next week and thanks to the posts of yourselves and others that i have read on pprune i will be making a much more informed decision with a much better understanding of the risks involved.
thank you all for the posts. i am a newbie to pprune but all ready see it as being a fantastic resource. cheers
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i believe the ICUS hours are still only attainable with check/training, that is unless the s340 can be reclassified as high AOC in which case any captain can conduct ICUS... which is apparently another battle they're having with Casa at the moment or so i have herd...
that is my understanding anyway..
that is my understanding anyway..
You are well informed catas420.
I here there is significant resistance to the logging of ICUS from the RHS by the senior Check and Trainers, much to the chagrin of Management. I must admit I'm not sure of the disallowance of the practice because of the Low Cap AOC.
Any idea of a reference?
I here there is significant resistance to the logging of ICUS from the RHS by the senior Check and Trainers, much to the chagrin of Management. I must admit I'm not sure of the disallowance of the practice because of the Low Cap AOC.
Any idea of a reference?
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Funny enough, many in Australia are quite critical of the FAA system, they have been running cadet programs for many years, and it has only just caught on here over the past 5 odd years.
You'd think we'd be able to learn from what the FAA system has learnt in that time about such "short cut" programs.
Smoking hole at the end of the runway kind of lessons.
Yes, we are far more than a day late and a dollar short on this topic.
The US senate has had an enquiry regarding the reduction of experience levels in their cockpits, particulary regional. They are looking very closely at mandating a minimum of 1500 hours.
The reason for this is quite obvious to those that have been in the industry long enough to be able to recite Flying High vebatim. Yet still we continue the rush to the bottom.
To those thinking of a cadetship, don't do it, you can learn a lot more out in the industry.
As a Cadet, the very best you can hope for is to be viewed as a second class citizen, you will alway be "one of those cadets", and treated as such.
You'd think we'd be able to learn from what the FAA system has learnt in that time about such "short cut" programs.
Smoking hole at the end of the runway kind of lessons.
Yes, we are far more than a day late and a dollar short on this topic.
The US senate has had an enquiry regarding the reduction of experience levels in their cockpits, particulary regional. They are looking very closely at mandating a minimum of 1500 hours.
The reason for this is quite obvious to those that have been in the industry long enough to be able to recite Flying High vebatim. Yet still we continue the rush to the bottom.
To those thinking of a cadetship, don't do it, you can learn a lot more out in the industry.
As a Cadet, the very best you can hope for is to be viewed as a second class citizen, you will alway be "one of those cadets", and treated as such.
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Solid Gold Dancer
"To those thinking of a cadetship, don't do it, you can learn a lot more out in the industry."
I see posts like this one coming up from time to time and makes me wonder, how could a 'cadet' learn any less flying with for the most part seasoned captains within a regional airline compared to going out and roughing it in the GA?
"To those thinking of a cadetship, don't do it, you can learn a lot more out in the industry."
I see posts like this one coming up from time to time and makes me wonder, how could a 'cadet' learn any less flying with for the most part seasoned captains within a regional airline compared to going out and roughing it in the GA?
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Aviator, I think what people are referring to are the lessons that can be learned in the 'school of hard knocks' - especially as those lessons relate to command decisions. The lessons of living with the consequences of a command decision that you have made under difficult circumstances with often no one else to defer to. The lessons that grow that sense of 'rat cunning' and judgement over a variety of backdrops of aircraft types, physical environments, companies, personalities, the list goes on.
Sure, experienced captains can pass on excellent flying lessons and experiences to the one sitting next to them. BUT, it is not the same as experiencing them for yourself and while alone in the hot seat.
Airlines are excellent at requiring sound operating technique based on standard operating procedures but ocassionally an 'out of the box' scenario will present itself and one who has had a diverse background of experiences is likely to have more to draw on to come up with a suitable response in that situation.
Sure, experienced captains can pass on excellent flying lessons and experiences to the one sitting next to them. BUT, it is not the same as experiencing them for yourself and while alone in the hot seat.
Airlines are excellent at requiring sound operating technique based on standard operating procedures but ocassionally an 'out of the box' scenario will present itself and one who has had a diverse background of experiences is likely to have more to draw on to come up with a suitable response in that situation.
Join Date: Dec 2007
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If you sit in the right seat of a saab/dash/whatever for 4 years you learn the same command lessons as going via GA. You just get to do it with a coffee top of climb. Been there, doing it, and if you are paying close attention you'll come out ready for command, and you'll know thats the case when the cockpit gradient suddenly goes from right to left when the captain has lost SA or is having a bad day and without a word being said the FO is making the calls.
When this stuff happens the FO will realise the cadet scheme they've been through works and its time to start looking for command. IMO its about time some changes were made so professional FO's can make the step up without going backwards first.
WRT rex c&t resisting icus change, thats standard rex empire building mentality; it'll be a seen as a reduction of their "power" to allow other capts to do their job, and they wont like it. I do think though that c&t need to approve which cadets can start on icus because not all will be ready at a set number of hours due different ability levels.
(formerly a cadet not with rex but in their system so aware of the issues and in the same boat as cadets wrt command upgrade)
When this stuff happens the FO will realise the cadet scheme they've been through works and its time to start looking for command. IMO its about time some changes were made so professional FO's can make the step up without going backwards first.
WRT rex c&t resisting icus change, thats standard rex empire building mentality; it'll be a seen as a reduction of their "power" to allow other capts to do their job, and they wont like it. I do think though that c&t need to approve which cadets can start on icus because not all will be ready at a set number of hours due different ability levels.
(formerly a cadet not with rex but in their system so aware of the issues and in the same boat as cadets wrt command upgrade)