Para Dropping & Pay in GA
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Para Dropping & Pay in GA
Hi. I understand that there are para dropping operators along with others in GA out there expecting pilots to fly for them for free. Do they get many takers and are there a lot of organisations working like this? Surely the continual turnover of staff must make it make sense to actually pay something.
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jump pilots
You generally get what you pay for in life, so if you are paying nothing, don't expect to much in return. Yes there are operators out there that will pay nothing, it is up to professional pilots to not lower their standards.
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There are quite a few operators out there who don't need to pay anything. The club who I jump with don't and the reasoning behind this is because our jump pilot has nothing better to do. When asked why fly for free the response is usually somewhere along the lines of, "out of pure boredom."
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DH 200, give that fly-for-free pilot a Gibbs-style slap in the neck from all the junior pilots out there that this guy helps destroy the market for. If that guy has too much time on his hands, he should go out and do something worthwhile with his time that doesn't distort the market, like flying sick kids around with Angel Flights or something like that. 
jp
Im going to have to disagree with you VH-BCY. I fly for a skydive operater that doesn't pay there pilots (the aircraft are kept in extremly good shape and the pilots there are treated with respect) and its not because i lowered my standards. Id been looking for work all over australia and couldn't find a single thing then i applied at this operater which was only 30 mins down the road and got the job, now instead of sitting around trying to find work im doing 5 to 10 hours a weekend in decent aircraft. So in 10 to 12 months im going to have added around 400 hours to my logbook and i will have a good chance of getting into a charter operation. Being a professional pilot is more then just flying, its doing these hard yards to get to where you want to be.
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Thankfully with the soon to be introduced regs making skydive commercial ops, we'll get rid of these PPL flyers who have nothing better to do which in turn should raise the standard of flying a bit at least if nothing else
(just wait until you read what the pilot will be responsible for
)
(just wait until you read what the pilot will be responsible for
)
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QldPilotGuy, virtual slap in the neck for you too, don't you see that people like you who accept to fly for nought lower pay and T&C's for everyone in the industry, especially for low hour pilots?
You're directly contributing to the low entry salary you'll have to accept in your next job. Simple supply and demand. If the operator can't find anyone who'll fly for nothing, they'll offer pay before they keep the meatbombers of the ground. If they can't fly anyone to fly for below award, they'll pay award. (Need proof? Look at postings of around a year ago.) Subsequent salaries build to a degree on the ones paid at the levels below, so you're helping screw up earnings for everyone.
Extremely silly IMHO, not to mention very very selfish
Where's your self respect? 
Call me simple, but get paid nothing, be worth nothing.
As long as people like you are willing to sell themselves short, we'll never get decent pay and conditions in this industry. So for your own sake and for the sake of all your flying colleagues tell your boss you want to get paid award or you'll leave!
Rant over.
You're directly contributing to the low entry salary you'll have to accept in your next job.
Simple supply and demand. If the operator can't find anyone who'll fly for nothing, they'll offer pay before they keep the meatbombers of the ground. If they can't fly anyone to fly for below award, they'll pay award. (Need proof? Look at postings of around a year ago.) Subsequent salaries build to a degree on the ones paid at the levels below, so you're helping screw up earnings for everyone. Extremely silly IMHO, not to mention very very selfish
Where's your self respect? Call me simple, but get paid nothing, be worth nothing. As long as people like you are willing to sell themselves short, we'll never get decent pay and conditions in this industry. So for your own sake and for the sake of all your flying colleagues tell your boss you want to get paid award or you'll leave!
Rant over.
PlankBender I can understand what your ranting on about but that is not what goes on in the real world.
Ok so I walk up to my boss and say if you don't pay me i leave, he doesn't so i leave, im now totaly unemployed, no wage, no hours ticking over and I actualy have to pay to go rent a plane to remain current.
I would love to be working for a wage but with min hours no one will hire me (and before you start another rant yes ive tried in both flying and non flying areas). Its alot easier for someone who is working (and im not suggesting you are) to point fingers and say this is where the industry is failing then it is for someone who has no work who has been offered free hours to accept and be happy that they have something no matter how small it is.
I wouldn't belittle other pilots who are living the dream of just being able to get into the air without actualy having to pay an arm and a leg to get there. All pilots have done the hard yards to get to where they are, almost all of them deserve a little respect.
Ok so I walk up to my boss and say if you don't pay me i leave, he doesn't so i leave, im now totaly unemployed, no wage, no hours ticking over and I actualy have to pay to go rent a plane to remain current.
I would love to be working for a wage but with min hours no one will hire me (and before you start another rant yes ive tried in both flying and non flying areas). Its alot easier for someone who is working (and im not suggesting you are) to point fingers and say this is where the industry is failing then it is for someone who has no work who has been offered free hours to accept and be happy that they have something no matter how small it is.
I wouldn't belittle other pilots who are living the dream of just being able to get into the air without actualy having to pay an arm and a leg to get there. All pilots have done the hard yards to get to where they are, almost all of them deserve a little respect.
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F**k the hard yards mentality Get rid of these so called "private operations".
If somebody is not paying pilots to fly in their enteprise...and taking a profit, then my naive freinds above....they...and you by default...are grubs who should be shut out of this industry.
QED
Get rid of these so called "private operations".If somebody is not paying pilots to fly in their enteprise...and taking a profit, then my naive freinds above....they...and you by default...are grubs who should be shut out of this industry.
QED
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Para dropping is a good long term career to get into. Pay is usually well above the award with all the usual stuff like super, 6 weeks annual leave etc. Safety standards are always very high with well maintained aircraft. Unlike alot of GA places, you will never be asked or expected to do anything dodgy or illegal.
Have fun!
Have fun!
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QldPilotGuy, don't give me that 'real world' rubbish, you're just trying to justify your selfish destructive actions.
By definition, if you're not getting paid, you're financing your life by some other means, so you might just as well put a little money into staying current and keep searching for a real job, i.e. one with a wage. Read the other threads in this forum, there's people out there who knock on doors and do the actual 'hard yards' in the form of road trips, pulling pints, doing whatever is required to get that first job, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that they'd have too much self-respect to work for free after going half way around the country and investing all that time and money.
I'm not surprised that no-one's hiring you, with that sort of selfish attitude I know I wouldn't! I've run small businesses, and I would always look at the past actions and employments of a candidate, and working for free for selfish short term gain at the expense of one's peers isn't a character trait I'd want in my team.
Personally, I'd rather go back to my old job (which I don't particularly like although the money isn't bad) than work for free as a pilot. I know I'd feel better just flying a few hours a month in my own time on my own money, than lining someone's pocket with extra profit at the expense of another pilot who can't get a paying flying job because of my actions, or for example the guys at Rex who have to put up with sh!t pay and conditions because there are people like you in the industry. Shame on you!
If you want to be part of an industry and work towards having a standing and respect among peers, then being a selfish little so-and-so who only thinks as far as the hours in his log book isn't going to get you very far.
GADRIVR, well put.
By definition, if you're not getting paid, you're financing your life by some other means, so you might just as well put a little money into staying current and keep searching for a real job, i.e. one with a wage.
Read the other threads in this forum, there's people out there who knock on doors and do the actual 'hard yards' in the form of road trips, pulling pints, doing whatever is required to get that first job, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that they'd have too much self-respect to work for free after going half way around the country and investing all that time and money. I'm not surprised that no-one's hiring you, with that sort of selfish attitude I know I wouldn't! I've run small businesses, and I would always look at the past actions and employments of a candidate, and working for free for selfish short term gain at the expense of one's peers isn't a character trait I'd want in my team.
Personally, I'd rather go back to my old job (which I don't particularly like although the money isn't bad) than work for free as a pilot. I know I'd feel better just flying a few hours a month in my own time on my own money, than lining someone's pocket with extra profit at the expense of another pilot who can't get a paying flying job because of my actions, or for example the guys at Rex who have to put up with sh!t pay and conditions because there are people like you in the industry. Shame on you!
If you want to be part of an industry and work towards having a standing and respect among peers, then being a selfish little so-and-so who only thinks as far as the hours in his log book isn't going to get you very far.
GADRIVR, well put.
Last edited by PlankBlender; 17th Aug 2009 at 04:28.
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I once to lived with a Para-dropping pilot. Flying a C182, she used to earn around $33k (plus holidays, sick days - you know all the stuff real employees get). Good upgrade prospects (all the way to twin turbine), all training paid for. The boss looked after the pilots and expected them to hang around, seemed a lot of them did.
Was a great gig. The 182 was a bit of a heap, but it had an MR and all squarks were fixed asap. I happily flew the odd day for them with no worries about the old girl.
They offered me a job on a 185 just after i moved out of town, DOH!!! I was all career minded then and turned it down. With hindsight i should have taken it
Was a great gig. The 182 was a bit of a heap, but it had an MR and all squarks were fixed asap. I happily flew the odd day for them with no worries about the old girl.
They offered me a job on a 185 just after i moved out of town, DOH!!! I was all career minded then and turned it down. With hindsight i should have taken it
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j3, there's a difference between not getting paid much (may I ask how much, we're talking pennies or just under awards?) and working for free. Huge difference in terms of (self) respect and for wage levels in the industry as a whole.
Work for free = increase supply = lower price of labour (wages).
I know award isn't always realistic, but at least one needs to be able to make a half decent living under the circumstances. Subside flying with other means and you're hurting the pilot body as a whole.
People who only look at their own gain and are prepared (or too ignorant to realise the consequence of their actions) to hurt their peers in the process just p!ss me off.
Work for free = increase supply = lower price of labour (wages).
I know award isn't always realistic, but at least one needs to be able to make a half decent living under the circumstances. Subside flying with other means and you're hurting the pilot body as a whole.
People who only look at their own gain and are prepared (or too ignorant to realise the consequence of their actions) to hurt their peers in the process just p!ss me off.
Last edited by PlankBlender; 17th Aug 2009 at 04:44.
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I can understand what both sides are trying to say
For a small local club operation that charges member enough to cover cost of A/C then they try and locate a pilot willing to give up a day or two every now and then, It is important to remember most of them are club members who jump as well trading off some slots for flying loads. I personally have no problem with this; I liken it to a gliding club. However there are some clubs that don’t distinguish the two areas of the operation.
I would suggest where these operations exist that you ask for a fee per tandem of which they are making money from. If they are just using you for your licence and you’re not a club member who jumps, I would find alternative ways of getting hours where you will learn something more valuable. Because all they see you as is an elevator operator.
The main problem is when it is a commercial business generating up to $900 revenue per load for a C182 and even more for the larger aircraft for a tandem operation. Now $20 - $25 for the pilot is not much to ask is it?
I have had this very same conversation many times and I explain it to operators like this. If you want your Commercial operation to be in the hands of a 200 hr pilot with no one to watch over them or teach them then go right ahead and pay them nothing because that will just result in poor standards and a lack of enthusiasm from the pilot.
If you want a professional bunch of pirates then it will cost (not allot by any means) but still the same you will have people that you can trust to operate your machine without all the jumpers looking over his or her shoulders telling them not to stall the plane, which is a growing trend with senior jumpers and junior pilot’s. One quote that me off is the mentality that they have sat in a plane for 5000 jumps that means they have 2500 hrs... give me a break. I have flown with some jumpers who have 5000 jumps and they go and learn to fly and dont fly like a 250 hr pilot, it comes back to time on the tools not watching better homes and gardens.
I would also like to point out to operators that there is a massive difference in flying a C182 and C208 or Twins. Not so much in the ease (Caravan wins hands down, way easier than the 182) of flying but the decisions that come with larger aircraft and especially if flying IFR. A concept skydivers dont seem to understand.
I have flown for a commercial skydiving operation before and was paid well above the award. We had a number of pilots all with well over 1000 hours and 100 on type. 2 years and no incidents or U/S aircraft (got to love those cessna’s). We had a formal training system and it worked very well.
Also just remember some people fly 1000 hours and some people fly 1 hour a 1000 times hence why training is important in any organisation
Normal rates should be about:
$5-$10 per tandem depending on your experience
$15 - $30 per load depending on A/C size and if you are IFR (C182 – C208)
For a small local club operation that charges member enough to cover cost of A/C then they try and locate a pilot willing to give up a day or two every now and then, It is important to remember most of them are club members who jump as well trading off some slots for flying loads. I personally have no problem with this; I liken it to a gliding club. However there are some clubs that don’t distinguish the two areas of the operation.
I would suggest where these operations exist that you ask for a fee per tandem of which they are making money from. If they are just using you for your licence and you’re not a club member who jumps, I would find alternative ways of getting hours where you will learn something more valuable. Because all they see you as is an elevator operator.
The main problem is when it is a commercial business generating up to $900 revenue per load for a C182 and even more for the larger aircraft for a tandem operation. Now $20 - $25 for the pilot is not much to ask is it?
I have had this very same conversation many times and I explain it to operators like this. If you want your Commercial operation to be in the hands of a 200 hr pilot with no one to watch over them or teach them then go right ahead and pay them nothing because that will just result in poor standards and a lack of enthusiasm from the pilot.
If you want a professional bunch of pirates then it will cost (not allot by any means) but still the same you will have people that you can trust to operate your machine without all the jumpers looking over his or her shoulders telling them not to stall the plane, which is a growing trend with senior jumpers and junior pilot’s. One quote that
me off is the mentality that they have sat in a plane for 5000 jumps that means they have 2500 hrs... give me a break. I have flown with some jumpers who have 5000 jumps and they go and learn to fly and dont fly like a 250 hr pilot, it comes back to time on the tools not watching better homes and gardens.I would also like to point out to operators that there is a massive difference in flying a C182 and C208 or Twins. Not so much in the ease (Caravan wins hands down, way easier than the 182) of flying but the decisions that come with larger aircraft and especially if flying IFR. A concept skydivers dont seem to understand
. I have flown for a commercial skydiving operation before and was paid well above the award. We had a number of pilots all with well over 1000 hours and 100 on type. 2 years and no incidents or U/S aircraft (got to love those cessna’s). We had a formal training system and it worked very well.
Also just remember some people fly 1000 hours and some people fly 1 hour a 1000 times hence why training is important in any organisation
Normal rates should be about:
$5-$10 per tandem depending on your experience
$15 - $30 per load depending on A/C size and if you are IFR (C182 – C208)
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I know where your coming from qldpilotguy, I too couldn't find a 'real job', after I exhausted my list, with not even a hint of me getting a job anywhere. I hadn't flown in months, and I was at the stage where I realised I need to take anything I can get, and for me, that break came when I contacted a small skydiving club. They would take me on but their would be no pay, but I didnt mind, how else was I going to get that 300-400 hours that all those places with 'real jobs' wanted, so I accepted.
Well, its great! They have a few older pilots that have a wealth of experience, and from them im learning heaps of things that are making me a better pilot, and some things that will probably save my skin one day! Im flying for a purpose, not flying around aimlessly in a rented plane just to get hours.
Most importantly, Im meeting people in the industry, and maybe one day soon, I might get a 'real job' with them. Skydivers are a great bunch of people, there friendly and have killer parties! so there is a great social side to it aswell.
Plankbender, I dont regret it, and I dont think im disadvantaging you at all. Im saving heaps of money by not paying for flying out of my own pocket, you call it selfish, I call it common sense. Some people just can't pay for flying forever, like you can. Im experiencing all these things that you are missing out on, and Im having a blast! I finally have a job in aviation, the dream has come true! and Im hoping its going to get even better soon when I get to fly a serviceable plane and get paid for it too!
So come on Planky, come on over to the dark side!
Well, its great! They have a few older pilots that have a wealth of experience, and from them im learning heaps of things that are making me a better pilot, and some things that will probably save my skin one day! Im flying for a purpose, not flying around aimlessly in a rented plane just to get hours.
Most importantly, Im meeting people in the industry, and maybe one day soon, I might get a 'real job' with them. Skydivers are a great bunch of people, there friendly and have killer parties! so there is a great social side to it aswell.
Plankbender, I dont regret it, and I dont think im disadvantaging you at all. Im saving heaps of money by not paying for flying out of my own pocket, you call it selfish, I call it common sense. Some people just can't pay for flying forever, like you can. Im experiencing all these things that you are missing out on, and Im having a blast! I finally have a job in aviation, the dream has come true! and Im hoping its going to get even better soon when I get to fly a serviceable plane and get paid for it too!
So come on Planky, come on over to the dark side!
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Without getting into the low pay arguement........
Can a Jump Pilot actually get paid legally?.
The operation does not require an AOC and is not Charter or Aerial Work.
A PPL holder can operate the aircraft.
Does Jump Pilot pay constitute 'Hire or Reward'?.
Can a Jump Pilot actually get paid legally?.
The operation does not require an AOC and is not Charter or Aerial Work.
A PPL holder can operate the aircraft.
Does Jump Pilot pay constitute 'Hire or Reward'?.
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SM227 - you have missed the point by a wide margin....you DON'T have a 'job' (ie you are not getting paid). Your 'Industry contacts' - if they are any good at all, they will either avoid you like the plague when you come looking for work, or they will offer you sod-all because they have seen you working for nothing.
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SM227, I've got nothing whatsoever against flying in a club, trading jump costs with 'elevator operator' hours, that's a fair trade in a non-commercial environment just like in a gliding club. Economic/industry impact of such a trade is small, and you're right of course, experience and contacts gained are valuable. Nothing wrong with that.
What I am dead set against is supporting some unscrupulous businessmen who try to exploit low hour pilots by effectively increasing their own margins through paying low or no pilots' wages. That's unethical from a business point of view, selfish from the point of view of the pilot, and no pilot should be under the illusion that it's not looked down on by most peers as the wrong thing to do. It does have consequences beyond the own person by distorting supply and demand and thus prices and wages, and it's just not on!
If there is a commercial element involved, i.e. significant (above usual club fees) money changing hands for tandem and training jumps, the pilot deserves to be paid, make no mistake, if they're not effectively they're just donating their pay and some of their peers' pay to the operator!
Nothing to do with how much one can or cannot afford to pay for their own flying, really.
What I am dead set against is supporting some unscrupulous businessmen who try to exploit low hour pilots by effectively increasing their own margins through paying low or no pilots' wages. That's unethical from a business point of view, selfish from the point of view of the pilot, and no pilot should be under the illusion that it's not looked down on by most peers as the wrong thing to do. It does have consequences beyond the own person by distorting supply and demand and thus prices and wages, and it's just not on!
If there is a commercial element involved, i.e. significant (above usual club fees) money changing hands for tandem and training jumps, the pilot deserves to be paid, make no mistake, if they're not effectively they're just donating their pay and some of their peers' pay to the operator!
Nothing to do with how much one can or cannot afford to pay for their own flying, really.