Para Dropping & Pay in GA
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"If you want to improve conditions for pilots, either
1) somehow convince people being a pilot isn't glamorous or exciting
or
2) somehow convince flight schools to train fewer pilots."
superdimona Interesting argument, I am curious to what theory of economic's this comes from?
what about
3) somehow have a minimum people will work for thus not creating a false development of supply. Oh wait they already have done this
This is the case in every industry, sometimes there are more people who want to be employed in an industry than there are jobs. However the award is there to set the minimum standards for employment that is why they are there. yes you will see a decrease in wages just like you see an increase when there is less supply... it was only 18 months ag people where offering 70K for PA31 driver. But there is government interventions that set price floors in many aspects of our economy to protect people and or the country.
If we just left it to law's of supply and demand every fun career would be under threat to the people who want to do it for fun. I would work for free as a bikini inspector.
I am in no way a unionist I am the complete opposite, some people say it is unfair for low time pilots to compete with high time guys... now that my friend is fair compitition just like when you go for a job against someone with more qualifications. Sic vita est
1) somehow convince people being a pilot isn't glamorous or exciting
or
2) somehow convince flight schools to train fewer pilots."
superdimona Interesting argument, I am curious to what theory of economic's this comes from?
what about
3) somehow have a minimum people will work for thus not creating a false development of supply. Oh wait they already have done this
This is the case in every industry, sometimes there are more people who want to be employed in an industry than there are jobs. However the award is there to set the minimum standards for employment that is why they are there. yes you will see a decrease in wages just like you see an increase when there is less supply... it was only 18 months ag people where offering 70K for PA31 driver. But there is government interventions that set price floors in many aspects of our economy to protect people and or the country.
If we just left it to law's of supply and demand every fun career would be under threat to the people who want to do it for fun. I would work for free as a bikini inspector.
I am in no way a unionist I am the complete opposite, some people say it is unfair for low time pilots to compete with high time guys... now that my friend is fair compitition just like when you go for a job against someone with more qualifications. Sic vita est
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The following is a draft of proposed new regs, might give some idea
Revocation
1 Instrument CASA 278/97 is revoked.
Application
2 This instrument applies to aircraft engaged in parachute training operations.
Direction
3 Aircraft engaged in parachute training operations must comply with the conditions set out in section 6.
Commencement
4.1 Subject to subsections 6.2 and 6.3, this instrument comes into effect on the day after registration.
4.2 Subsection 6.1 comes into effect 90 days after the registration of this instrument.
4.3 Subsections 6.2 and 6.3 come into effect on 1 March 2010.
Definitions
5 In this instrument:
APF means the Australian Parachuting Federation Inc.
APF Jump Pilot’s Handbook means a handbook issued by the APF, as approved by CASA from time to time, setting out rules and procedures for carrying out parachuting operations.
APF Jump Pilot’s rating means a certificate issued by the APF to certify that a pilot is trained and competent to carry out parachuting operations.
ATC means air traffic control.
ATC frequency means a radio frequency used by air traffic control.
controlled airspace(CTA) means airspace that is Class A, C, D, or E airspace or a GAAP Control Zone.
Chief Instructor means an instructor “A” approved by the APF in accordance with the APF Operations Regulations to supervise parachute training operations for a training organisation .
CTAF means a common traffic advisory frequency.
CTAF(R) area means an area within which radio carriage and use are required and in which aircraft use a CTAF.
drop aircraft means any aircraft engaged in the dropping of parachutists in parachute training operations.
drop zone means the area within which parachutists taking part in a parachute training operation are required to land.
training organisation means an APF member organisation authorised by the APF to conduct parachute training operations, including
student and novice training descents and tandem jumps.
General Conditions
6.1 A drop aircraft when dropping parachutists must be operated in accordance with the APF Jump Pilot’s Handbook.
6.2 A pilot in command of a drop aircraft must hold an APF Jump Pilot’s Certificate.
6.3 A drop aircraft that is not a Class A aircraft must be maintained as if it were a Class B charter aircraft and must have a current maintenance release issued in that category.
6.4 Applications for exemptions to carry fire extinguishes may be made for certain type aircraft i.e. C172, C182, C206
6.5 Any alteration of the APF Jump Pilot’s Handbook must be notified to CASA for acceptance.
6.6 If CASA does not accept the alteration, it must notify the APF.
[6.5 is necessary if CASA is to consider whether to accept or not.]
Supervision of parachute training operations
7.1 Parachute training operations must be conducted under the supervision of a Chief Instructor.
Supervision by Chief Instructor
O.R. 13.1.3 All training Descents must be made under the supervision of a Chief Instructor and conducted in accordance with an Approved Training Operations Manual.
Safe conduct of parachute operations
8.1 The pilot in command of a drop aircraft must take all reasonable measures to ensure that:
(a) parachutists exit the aircraft only if there is no risk of any part of the aircraft being fouled by parachutists or their equipment when they exit; and
(b) the operation does not impose any adverse stress on any part of the aircraft structure; and
(c) loose objects that if dropped could create a hazard to persons or property on ground or water are not carried by parachutists exiting the aircraft.
8.2 Except in accordance with a specification issued by CASA, the person in charge of the parachuting operation, the parachutist and the pilot in command of the aircraft must ensure that:
(a) a parachute descent is made in meteorological conditions in which the target is clearly visible; and
(b) that the parachutist does not enter cloud.
Equipment
9.1 A drop aircraft must be equipped with:
(a) 2 VHF radio transceivers.; or
(b) if operating in Class G airspace, 1 VHF radio transceiver.
9.2 The radio transceivers or transceiver must be used to make broadcasts in accordance with this approval.
Radio procedures
10.1 Subject to subsection 10.4, a broadcast advising the intention to drop parachutists must be made from the drop aircraft not less than 2 minutes before the parachutists exit the aircraft.
10.2 A broadcast under subsection 10.1 must be made on all relevant frequencies for the airspace through which the parachutists descend and in which the drop aircraft operates.
10.3 A broadcast made under subsection 10.1 must give notice of:
(a) the location of the drop zone;
(b) the altitude at which the parachutists will exit the aircraft.
10.4 The relevant frequencies include:
(a) any ATC frequency for airspace used by the drop aircraft;
(b) any other frequency used in airspace through which the parachutists may descend after exiting the aircraft;
(c) where the landing area for the parachutists is located in the vicinity of an aerodrome where an air traffic control service is not provided—the CTAF for the surrounding airspace.
10.5 A broadcast made by ATC on an ATC frequency advising that parachutists will be dropped at a time stated in the broadcast is taken to be a broadcast on that frequency under subsection 10.1, subject to meeting the requirements of subsections 10.3 and 10.4.
Additional requirements in controlled airspace
11.1 The pilot in command must not allow parachutists to exit a drop aircraft in controlled airspace until he or she has received from ATC the clearance “[Aircraft call-sign] clear to drop”.
11.2 A drop aircraft must use its VHF radio transceivers to communicate with ATC and to monitor and advise air traffic outside the controlled airspace.
11.3 If parachutists will not be dropped within 3 nautical miles radius of the centre of the drop zone, the pilot in command must advise ATC of the direction and extent of any extension required to the drop zone.
Additional requirements at aerodromes requiring radio carriage and use
12.1 A drop aircraft must not engage in an operation involving parachute descents at, or in the vicinity of, an aerodrome in a CTAF(R) area, unless the pilot in command uses its VHF radio transceivers to monitor and advise air traffic in the vicinity of the aerodrome and the surrounding areas, using the relevant CTAF(R) and any other relevant frequencies.
12.2 In addition to the broadcast required under subsection 10.1, a broadcast advising the intention to drop parachutists at the location specified in the broadcast must be made from the drop aircraft on the relevant frequencies not less than 4 minutes before the parachutists exit the aircraft.
12.3 A broadcast under subsection 12.2 must be made on the relevant frequencies specified in subsection 10.4.
12.4 The pilot in command must ensure that parachutists do not exit a drop aircraft at, in the vicinity of, an aerodrome in a CTAF(R) area, if the descent would take place 15 minutes or less before the estimated time of arrival of an aircraft engaged in regular public transport operations (an RPT aircraft).
12.5 Subsection 12.4 does not apply if:
(a) the 2 aircraft are in direct radiocommunication with each other; and
(b) all parachutists are able to exit the aircraft and land before the RPT aircraft arrives within the circuit area of the aerodrome.
12.6 After an RPT aircraft arrives at an aerodrome in a CTAF(R) area, the pilot in command of a drop aircraft must ensure that parachutists do not exit the aircraft at, or in the vicinity of, the aerodrome until the RPT aircraft has landed and taxied clear of the runway.
12.7 After an RPT aircraft has broadcast that it is taxiing for departure from an aerodrome where radio carriage and use is required, the pilot in command of a drop aircraft must ensure that parachutists do not exit the aircraft at, in the vicinity of, the aerodrome until the RPT aircraft is clear of the circuit area of the aerodrome.
Additional requirements at certified or registered aerodromes
13.1 The pilot in command must ensure that parachutists do not exit a drop aircraft at a certified or registered aerodrome, unless:
(a) the aerodrome operator has approved parachute descents at the aerodrome; and
(b) regular and local users of the aerodrome have been given timely
notice of the intended descents;
(c) the target set out for the parachutists is separated from the movement area by a distance equal to the applicable minimum drop zone radius; and
(d) the descents do not conflict with any aircraft that are:
(i) on the live side of any circuit that is in use, or that could reasonably be expected to be used, by known traffic in prevailing conditions; or
(ii) using any runway, taxiway or apron.
13.2 Subsection 13.1 does not apply to an operation involving parachute descents at a certified or registered aerodrome if written specifications issued under regulation 152 of CAR 1988 require or allow those descents to be conducted differently.
13.3 The pilot in command must ensure that parachutists do not exit a drop aircraft at a certified or registered aerodrome if the pilot in command of another aircraft:
(a) is carrying out an instrument approach procedure at the aerodrome; or
(b) is expected to commence an instrument approach procedure within the next 5 minutes.
Additional requirements for operations more than 10 0000 feet above mean sea level (amsl)
14.1 A flight crew member who is on duty in an unpressurised drop aircraft must be provided with, and continuously use, supplemental oxygen:
(a) if the aircraft is above flight level 120; or
(b) if the aircraft operates above 10 000 feet amsl:
(i) for more than 15 minutes during an operation involving parachute descents; or
(ii) at night; or
(iii) in IMC.
Revocation
1 Instrument CASA 278/97 is revoked.
Application
2 This instrument applies to aircraft engaged in parachute training operations.
Direction
3 Aircraft engaged in parachute training operations must comply with the conditions set out in section 6.
Commencement
4.1 Subject to subsections 6.2 and 6.3, this instrument comes into effect on the day after registration.
4.2 Subsection 6.1 comes into effect 90 days after the registration of this instrument.
4.3 Subsections 6.2 and 6.3 come into effect on 1 March 2010.
Definitions
5 In this instrument:
APF means the Australian Parachuting Federation Inc.
APF Jump Pilot’s Handbook means a handbook issued by the APF, as approved by CASA from time to time, setting out rules and procedures for carrying out parachuting operations.
APF Jump Pilot’s rating means a certificate issued by the APF to certify that a pilot is trained and competent to carry out parachuting operations.
ATC means air traffic control.
ATC frequency means a radio frequency used by air traffic control.
controlled airspace(CTA) means airspace that is Class A, C, D, or E airspace or a GAAP Control Zone.
Chief Instructor means an instructor “A” approved by the APF in accordance with the APF Operations Regulations to supervise parachute training operations for a training organisation .
CTAF means a common traffic advisory frequency.
CTAF(R) area means an area within which radio carriage and use are required and in which aircraft use a CTAF.
drop aircraft means any aircraft engaged in the dropping of parachutists in parachute training operations.
drop zone means the area within which parachutists taking part in a parachute training operation are required to land.
training organisation means an APF member organisation authorised by the APF to conduct parachute training operations, including
student and novice training descents and tandem jumps.
General Conditions
6.1 A drop aircraft when dropping parachutists must be operated in accordance with the APF Jump Pilot’s Handbook.
6.2 A pilot in command of a drop aircraft must hold an APF Jump Pilot’s Certificate.
6.3 A drop aircraft that is not a Class A aircraft must be maintained as if it were a Class B charter aircraft and must have a current maintenance release issued in that category.
6.4 Applications for exemptions to carry fire extinguishes may be made for certain type aircraft i.e. C172, C182, C206
6.5 Any alteration of the APF Jump Pilot’s Handbook must be notified to CASA for acceptance.
6.6 If CASA does not accept the alteration, it must notify the APF.
[6.5 is necessary if CASA is to consider whether to accept or not.]
Supervision of parachute training operations
7.1 Parachute training operations must be conducted under the supervision of a Chief Instructor.
Supervision by Chief Instructor
O.R. 13.1.3 All training Descents must be made under the supervision of a Chief Instructor and conducted in accordance with an Approved Training Operations Manual.
Safe conduct of parachute operations
8.1 The pilot in command of a drop aircraft must take all reasonable measures to ensure that:
(a) parachutists exit the aircraft only if there is no risk of any part of the aircraft being fouled by parachutists or their equipment when they exit; and
(b) the operation does not impose any adverse stress on any part of the aircraft structure; and
(c) loose objects that if dropped could create a hazard to persons or property on ground or water are not carried by parachutists exiting the aircraft.
8.2 Except in accordance with a specification issued by CASA, the person in charge of the parachuting operation, the parachutist and the pilot in command of the aircraft must ensure that:
(a) a parachute descent is made in meteorological conditions in which the target is clearly visible; and
(b) that the parachutist does not enter cloud.
Equipment
9.1 A drop aircraft must be equipped with:
(a) 2 VHF radio transceivers.; or
(b) if operating in Class G airspace, 1 VHF radio transceiver.
9.2 The radio transceivers or transceiver must be used to make broadcasts in accordance with this approval.
Radio procedures
10.1 Subject to subsection 10.4, a broadcast advising the intention to drop parachutists must be made from the drop aircraft not less than 2 minutes before the parachutists exit the aircraft.
10.2 A broadcast under subsection 10.1 must be made on all relevant frequencies for the airspace through which the parachutists descend and in which the drop aircraft operates.
10.3 A broadcast made under subsection 10.1 must give notice of:
(a) the location of the drop zone;
(b) the altitude at which the parachutists will exit the aircraft.
10.4 The relevant frequencies include:
(a) any ATC frequency for airspace used by the drop aircraft;
(b) any other frequency used in airspace through which the parachutists may descend after exiting the aircraft;
(c) where the landing area for the parachutists is located in the vicinity of an aerodrome where an air traffic control service is not provided—the CTAF for the surrounding airspace.
10.5 A broadcast made by ATC on an ATC frequency advising that parachutists will be dropped at a time stated in the broadcast is taken to be a broadcast on that frequency under subsection 10.1, subject to meeting the requirements of subsections 10.3 and 10.4.
Additional requirements in controlled airspace
11.1 The pilot in command must not allow parachutists to exit a drop aircraft in controlled airspace until he or she has received from ATC the clearance “[Aircraft call-sign] clear to drop”.
11.2 A drop aircraft must use its VHF radio transceivers to communicate with ATC and to monitor and advise air traffic outside the controlled airspace.
11.3 If parachutists will not be dropped within 3 nautical miles radius of the centre of the drop zone, the pilot in command must advise ATC of the direction and extent of any extension required to the drop zone.
Additional requirements at aerodromes requiring radio carriage and use
12.1 A drop aircraft must not engage in an operation involving parachute descents at, or in the vicinity of, an aerodrome in a CTAF(R) area, unless the pilot in command uses its VHF radio transceivers to monitor and advise air traffic in the vicinity of the aerodrome and the surrounding areas, using the relevant CTAF(R) and any other relevant frequencies.
12.2 In addition to the broadcast required under subsection 10.1, a broadcast advising the intention to drop parachutists at the location specified in the broadcast must be made from the drop aircraft on the relevant frequencies not less than 4 minutes before the parachutists exit the aircraft.
12.3 A broadcast under subsection 12.2 must be made on the relevant frequencies specified in subsection 10.4.
12.4 The pilot in command must ensure that parachutists do not exit a drop aircraft at, in the vicinity of, an aerodrome in a CTAF(R) area, if the descent would take place 15 minutes or less before the estimated time of arrival of an aircraft engaged in regular public transport operations (an RPT aircraft).
12.5 Subsection 12.4 does not apply if:
(a) the 2 aircraft are in direct radiocommunication with each other; and
(b) all parachutists are able to exit the aircraft and land before the RPT aircraft arrives within the circuit area of the aerodrome.
12.6 After an RPT aircraft arrives at an aerodrome in a CTAF(R) area, the pilot in command of a drop aircraft must ensure that parachutists do not exit the aircraft at, or in the vicinity of, the aerodrome until the RPT aircraft has landed and taxied clear of the runway.
12.7 After an RPT aircraft has broadcast that it is taxiing for departure from an aerodrome where radio carriage and use is required, the pilot in command of a drop aircraft must ensure that parachutists do not exit the aircraft at, in the vicinity of, the aerodrome until the RPT aircraft is clear of the circuit area of the aerodrome.
Additional requirements at certified or registered aerodromes
13.1 The pilot in command must ensure that parachutists do not exit a drop aircraft at a certified or registered aerodrome, unless:
(a) the aerodrome operator has approved parachute descents at the aerodrome; and
(b) regular and local users of the aerodrome have been given timely
notice of the intended descents;
(c) the target set out for the parachutists is separated from the movement area by a distance equal to the applicable minimum drop zone radius; and
(d) the descents do not conflict with any aircraft that are:
(i) on the live side of any circuit that is in use, or that could reasonably be expected to be used, by known traffic in prevailing conditions; or
(ii) using any runway, taxiway or apron.
13.2 Subsection 13.1 does not apply to an operation involving parachute descents at a certified or registered aerodrome if written specifications issued under regulation 152 of CAR 1988 require or allow those descents to be conducted differently.
13.3 The pilot in command must ensure that parachutists do not exit a drop aircraft at a certified or registered aerodrome if the pilot in command of another aircraft:
(a) is carrying out an instrument approach procedure at the aerodrome; or
(b) is expected to commence an instrument approach procedure within the next 5 minutes.
Additional requirements for operations more than 10 0000 feet above mean sea level (amsl)
14.1 A flight crew member who is on duty in an unpressurised drop aircraft must be provided with, and continuously use, supplemental oxygen:
(a) if the aircraft is above flight level 120; or
(b) if the aircraft operates above 10 000 feet amsl:
(i) for more than 15 minutes during an operation involving parachute descents; or
(ii) at night; or
(iii) in IMC.
I didn't see anything in there about operators needing an AOC/chief pilot and pilots to have CPL'S, aircraft being maintained to charter standard etc...
I sincerely hope these changes are made.
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Van Gough
From the APF the first round of changes being made only require aircraft to be maintained to charter category, pilots will require endorsement just like a low level or aerobatic one, and operations will need to nominte a Senior pilot and supply a pilot manual not an AOC operations manual.
PPL's will still be good to fly on.
From the APF the first round of changes being made only require aircraft to be maintained to charter category, pilots will require endorsement just like a low level or aerobatic one, and operations will need to nominte a Senior pilot and supply a pilot manual not an AOC operations manual.
PPL's will still be good to fly on.
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I didn't see anything in there about operators needing an AOC/chief pilot and pilots to have CPL'S, aircraft being maintained to charter standard etc...I sincerely hope these changes are made.
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IK978 we have minimum wage laws to stop vulnerable people (like high school kids) being paid $5 per hour to stack shelves at Coles. The difference is you don't have kids offering to stack shelves for free because they enjoy the experience.
Originally Posted by GADRIVER
Krviator and the rest...probably best you lot stay out of the industry. People like you ARE the problem
Originally Posted by IK798
QldPilotGuy I am sorry for my post i thought that they were realy just trying to wind people up... I didn't think there was anyone that naive.
Originally Posted by IK798
Last thing I am going to say on this... feel free to go and fly for free, just remember.
1) it is wrong
2) everyone always remembers the person who fly's for free
3) no one respects you
4) someone has already sad no before you said yes
If you don't put your foot down for flying small A/C where does it stop?
you will always be the one who pays for endorsements, works for below the award, jumps over anyone for an upgrade, bitches about the other FO's to secure that command.
My only advice is to think hard about how much is the short term gain really worth.
1) it is wrong
2) everyone always remembers the person who fly's for free
3) no one respects you
4) someone has already sad no before you said yes
If you don't put your foot down for flying small A/C where does it stop?
you will always be the one who pays for endorsements, works for below the award, jumps over anyone for an upgrade, bitches about the other FO's to secure that command.
My only advice is to think hard about how much is the short term gain really worth.
Originally Posted by Puff
The other question is if your flying for free at the parachute moab - where do you stop and draw the line. Your next job you might have no twin time - do you work for free there ?
Originally Posted by Puff
Name ANY other industry where people work for free for companies that are making income off the activity you are performing for free for them ?
Originally Posted by IK978
However the award is there to set the minimum standards for employment that is why they are there.
Originally Posted by IK978
yes you will see a decrease in wages just like you see an increase when there is less supply... it was only 18 months ag people where offering 70K for PA31 driver.
Somebody asked "How much is that short term gain worth?". I would rephrase that as "How much is that short term pain worth?" and answer it as a hell of a lot. It has been said there is no such thing as bad hours in the logbook, so maybe I really am "that" naive.
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Name ANY other industry where people work for free for companies that are making income off the activity you are performing for free for them ? Do people work for free at the local servo to get cash register experience to work at Coles?
I'm not saying this translates to aviation, and I agree people deserve a fair day's pay for a fair day's (or night's) work.
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KRviator They don't pay the award because people like you will work for less. I would not be so proud of you willingness to work for nothing.
"I paid for my railway Safeworking school." but would you go and work for a rail company for free after your had your licence?
You my friend are a scab. I am sure one day will be sitting in your A320 crying about the fact you have no money because your still trying to pay for your 50K endorsement on 60K per year, and your ex wife is taking half your pay. I am also certin that there will be an old school capt. laughing his ass off because he has 2 ex wives and still has a pot to p!ss in because he didnt sell his hole to get there
superdimona I agree, why are 18 yo pilot's any different? what if you have a life gaurd who loves the beach do they go unpaid? they even have to deal with volunteers.... why dont councils rely solely on volunteers?
"I paid for my railway Safeworking school." but would you go and work for a rail company for free after your had your licence?
You my friend are a scab. I am sure one day will be sitting in your A320 crying about the fact you have no money because your still trying to pay for your 50K endorsement on 60K per year, and your ex wife is taking half your pay. I am also certin that there will be an old school capt. laughing his ass off because he has 2 ex wives and still has a pot to p!ss in because he didnt sell his hole to get there
superdimona I agree, why are 18 yo pilot's any different? what if you have a life gaurd who loves the beach do they go unpaid? they even have to deal with volunteers.... why dont councils rely solely on volunteers?
Thanks for clearing up exactly what we are guys...be careful that the air up on those tall pedestals aint so thin that you feel dizzy and fall...loooooong way down from up there
j3
self confessed excrement and scab it would seem (maybe only half of each as I paid for and endorsement and then got paid less than the award...)
j3
self confessed excrement and scab it would seem
(maybe only half of each as I paid for and endorsement and then got paid less than the award...)
ilk978, you call KRviator a scab for paying for a course...I think you might be a charcoal pot in this case....
AND
Don't that make you a scab there too matey????
j3
In my case allot of my desire for wanting to do everything within a short amount of time and to have the luxuries my parents have today comes from the fact like most baby boomer parents my parents have work very hard to allow me to do what i do.
I am not ashamed to say my parents paid for a good part of my training, i paid for the odd endorsement when i saved up enough while i was still at school.
j3
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As with any industry that askes for experience on the job,
How will I get expereince if no one gives me the chance to get any?
There is a gap between what a CPL candidates expereince is when they finish, to what they need to get a job. I know only a lucky few that have got jobs with 150hrs, they all knew the right people, which seems to be the only way to get ahead in this world.
So how are the people left behind going to get them extra hours?
They are going to either pay for it themselves, or they are going to find someone who might let them fly there plane for no charge, in most cases this is a skydiving company.
The problem is not that people are willing to work for free, its that no one is willing to take on people straight from flying school, if CASA thinks its good enough, then why dont our charter companys? Of course there is also alot of pilots that have well over the minimums applying, which is just making the gap even bigger, what is a newbie to do?!
How will I get expereince if no one gives me the chance to get any?
There is a gap between what a CPL candidates expereince is when they finish, to what they need to get a job. I know only a lucky few that have got jobs with 150hrs, they all knew the right people, which seems to be the only way to get ahead in this world.
So how are the people left behind going to get them extra hours?
They are going to either pay for it themselves, or they are going to find someone who might let them fly there plane for no charge, in most cases this is a skydiving company.
The problem is not that people are willing to work for free, its that no one is willing to take on people straight from flying school, if CASA thinks its good enough, then why dont our charter companys? Of course there is also alot of pilots that have well over the minimums applying, which is just making the gap even bigger, what is a newbie to do?!
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j3pipercub I am not ashamed to say i had help from the parents, especially when it came time to do a CSU and retract endorsement when I was 16.
I think I should clarify, I am not calling people who pay for endorsements scabs (although I don't agree with paying for type ratings)... just the ones who work for free, and then unashamley are proud of the fact that they do so while there are guys with more qualifications needing to find a job to pay the rent, should they work for free too?
I can understand how my previous post was interpurated incorrectly
SM227 The problem is not that people are willing to work for free, its that no one is willing to take on people straight from flying school, if CASA thinks its good enough, then why dont our charter companys?
Ahhh the $50M question... they wont take you on in a paid position because there is an over supply of pilot's thus someone more qualified than you. Patience is the key to over comming this not working for free
I think I should clarify, I am not calling people who pay for endorsements scabs (although I don't agree with paying for type ratings)... just the ones who work for free, and then unashamley are proud of the fact that they do so while there are guys with more qualifications needing to find a job to pay the rent, should they work for free too?
I can understand how my previous post was interpurated incorrectly
SM227 The problem is not that people are willing to work for free, its that no one is willing to take on people straight from flying school, if CASA thinks its good enough, then why dont our charter companys?
Ahhh the $50M question... they wont take you on in a paid position because there is an over supply of pilot's thus someone more qualified than you
. Patience is the key to over comming this not working for free
Last edited by lk978; 18th Aug 2009 at 05:15.
Ik978 do you realise you have just called all the wonderful volunteer pilots at Angel Flight Scabs. They are apart of an organisation that fly for free, actualy they fly at a loss. Or do they fall under one of your technical loopholes ?
Get off you high horse, you have alot to learn about giving other pilots respect. Personaly I would never want to fly with someone like yourself that has an ego bigger then a plane. Its fine to not agree and argue against companies that don't pay but don't speak down to other pilots, you have no idea of there personal situation.
j3pipercub and Krviator, you guys have made some great comments. couldn't agree more with them.
Get off you high horse, you have alot to learn about giving other pilots respect. Personaly I would never want to fly with someone like yourself that has an ego bigger then a plane. Its fine to not agree and argue against companies that don't pay but don't speak down to other pilots, you have no idea of there personal situation.
j3pipercub and Krviator, you guys have made some great comments. couldn't agree more with them.
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"do you realise you have just called all the wonderful volunteer pilots at Angel Flight Scabs. They are apart of an organisation that fly for free, actualy they fly at a loss. Or do they fall under one of your technical loopholes ?"
If you read my earlier posts i point out that i have no problem with people flying non revenue flying activities for nothing (parachute clubs, real clubs that is)
For a small local club operation that charges member enough to cover cost of A/C then they try and locate a pilot willing to give up a day or two every now and then, It is important to remember most of them are club members who jump as well trading off some slots for flying loads. I personally have no problem with this; I liken it to a gliding club. However there are some clubs that don’t distinguish the two areas of the operation.
I would suggest where these operations exist that you ask for a fee per tandem of which they are making money from. If they are just using you for your licence and you’re not a club member who jumps, I would find alternative ways of getting hours where you will learn something more valuable. Because all they see you as is an elevator operator.
The main problem is when it is a commercial business generating up to $900 revenue per load for a C182 and even more for the larger aircraft for a tandem operation. Now $20 - $25 for the pilot is not much to ask is it?
I have had this very same conversation many times and I explain it to operators like this. If you want your Commercial operation to be in the hands of a 200 hr pilot with no one to watch over them or teach them then go right ahead and pay them nothing because that will just result in poor standards and a lack of enthusiasm from the pilot.
If you want a professional bunch of pirates then it will cost (not allot by any means) but still the same you will have people that you can trust to operate your machine without all the jumpers looking over his or her shoulders telling them not to stall the plane, which is a growing trend with senior jumpers and junior pilot’s. One quote that
me off is the mentality that they have sat in a plane for 5000 jumps that means they have 2500 hrs... give me a break. I have flown with some jumpers who have 5000 jumps and they go and learn to fly and dont fly like a 250 hr pilot, it comes back to time on the tools not watching better homes and gardens.
I would also like to point out to operators that there is a massive difference in flying a C182 and C208 or Twins. Not so much in the ease (Caravan wins hands down, way easier than the 182) of flying but the decisions that come with larger aircraft and especially if flying IFR. A concept skydivers dont seem to understand.
I have flown for a commercial skydiving operation before and was paid well above the award. We had a number of pilots all with well over 1000 hours and 100 on type. 2 years and no incidents or U/S aircraft (got to love those cessna’s). We had a formal training system and it worked very well.
Also just remember some people fly 1000 hours and some people fly 1 hour a 1000 times hence why training is important in any organisation
Look it comes down to personal choice... go for your life fly for free and lets see the respect you get from other pilots, and if you don't care than good luck.
If you read my earlier posts i point out that i have no problem with people flying non revenue flying activities for nothing (parachute clubs, real clubs that is)
For a small local club operation that charges member enough to cover cost of A/C then they try and locate a pilot willing to give up a day or two every now and then, It is important to remember most of them are club members who jump as well trading off some slots for flying loads. I personally have no problem with this; I liken it to a gliding club. However there are some clubs that don’t distinguish the two areas of the operation.
I would suggest where these operations exist that you ask for a fee per tandem of which they are making money from. If they are just using you for your licence and you’re not a club member who jumps, I would find alternative ways of getting hours where you will learn something more valuable. Because all they see you as is an elevator operator.
The main problem is when it is a commercial business generating up to $900 revenue per load for a C182 and even more for the larger aircraft for a tandem operation. Now $20 - $25 for the pilot is not much to ask is it?
I have had this very same conversation many times and I explain it to operators like this. If you want your Commercial operation to be in the hands of a 200 hr pilot with no one to watch over them or teach them then go right ahead and pay them nothing because that will just result in poor standards and a lack of enthusiasm from the pilot.
If you want a professional bunch of pirates then it will cost (not allot by any means) but still the same you will have people that you can trust to operate your machine without all the jumpers looking over his or her shoulders telling them not to stall the plane, which is a growing trend with senior jumpers and junior pilot’s. One quote that
me off is the mentality that they have sat in a plane for 5000 jumps that means they have 2500 hrs... give me a break. I have flown with some jumpers who have 5000 jumps and they go and learn to fly and dont fly like a 250 hr pilot, it comes back to time on the tools not watching better homes and gardens.I would also like to point out to operators that there is a massive difference in flying a C182 and C208 or Twins. Not so much in the ease (Caravan wins hands down, way easier than the 182) of flying but the decisions that come with larger aircraft and especially if flying IFR. A concept skydivers dont seem to understand
. I have flown for a commercial skydiving operation before and was paid well above the award. We had a number of pilots all with well over 1000 hours and 100 on type. 2 years and no incidents or U/S aircraft (got to love those cessna’s). We had a formal training system and it worked very well.
Also just remember some people fly 1000 hours and some people fly 1 hour a 1000 times hence why training is important in any organisation
Look it comes down to personal choice... go for your life fly for free and lets see the respect you get from other pilots, and if you don't care than good luck.
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Well it seems we need not be concerned about QldPilotGuy taking anyone's job, with the sort of BS he spouts here he'll be out of the job market fairly quickly! 
Still, the excellent responses here have shown that it's generally understood that working for free distorts wage levels and strips pilots that do it of any respect among their peers.
Mate if you can't distinguish between renting an aircraft or donating your own aircraft's operating expenses for charity to support a wonderful altruistic cause like Angel Flight, and someone stupid and naive enough to contribute to a business's profit by working for free, then you should maybe consider alternative employment
Still, the excellent responses here have shown that it's generally understood that working for free distorts wage levels and strips pilots that do it of any respect among their peers.
Mate if you can't distinguish between renting an aircraft or donating your own aircraft's operating expenses for charity to support a wonderful altruistic cause like Angel Flight, and someone stupid and naive enough to contribute to a business's profit by working for free, then you should maybe consider alternative employment
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well said Plankbender, I wonder how many of these people would be willing to reveal their expearience and names to the pilot forum? Just in case i need someone to fly for me while i take a holiday and still get paid.
lk978, you say that patience is the key to not working for free...care to swap with someone who is un-employed? Looking for every little scrap of flying, just having spent 70k of their OWN money getting all the licenses and ratings, to be told, sorry, but not right now, or for the next 12 months thanks...or...only applicants with 500 hours total time and above will be considered. To have left your job to learn full time and now your stacking shelves/tossing bags/driving cabs. It can and is soul destroying.
Then you do something you thought you'd never do, work for free for a skydiving mob, not undercutting anyone, as thats the deal at this particualr DZ, and always has been. You sweep the hangar and stack shelves/dish pig while you wait your turn. You do your time, get the magic 500tt and leave (North, West, anywhere) and the guy who was sweeping the hangar takes your spot. Your choice, not dis-advantaging anyone else, as there will ALWAYS be pilots who will do it. no matter how many guys swear they will never-ever work for free, when it comes to cracking that first job, if meatbombing for free on weekends helps, then I doubt any young self-funded CPL wouldn't at least think about it...
If it's not for you, then walk away. Don't howl down the pilot for lowering conditions etc. It's not a charter mob, It's meatbombing. Technically speaking, it's a Private Op (or has been up to this point), so isn't getting paid a bit on the shady side??
If said pilot walks into a mob in Darwin/Kunnas and offers to work for free, sure string him up/birch them/whatever floats your boat. But not skydiving...
Just curious guys, for my own amusement. To the ones on here that reckon flying meatbombs for free is immoral/worse than worshipping satan/worse than waking up beside a sheman in Thailand:
-How many have made it into the airlines (Or the job of your dreams) ? What experience level are you at the moment? (@ you lk978/GADRVR/puff/jaeiou)
-Along the way, did you ever get paid below the award or do any little bit of gratis ie ferry flight when you were just fresh etc or pay for a endorsement to get a job. Be honest now...
-If in the airlines, did you have to pay for a Type Rating (Including Salary Sacrifice)
Cheers
j3
Then you do something you thought you'd never do, work for free for a skydiving mob, not undercutting anyone, as thats the deal at this particualr DZ, and always has been. You sweep the hangar and stack shelves/dish pig while you wait your turn. You do your time, get the magic 500tt and leave (North, West, anywhere) and the guy who was sweeping the hangar takes your spot. Your choice, not dis-advantaging anyone else, as there will ALWAYS be pilots who will do it. no matter how many guys swear they will never-ever work for free, when it comes to cracking that first job, if meatbombing for free on weekends helps, then I doubt any young self-funded CPL wouldn't at least think about it...
If it's not for you, then walk away. Don't howl down the pilot for lowering conditions etc. It's not a charter mob, It's meatbombing. Technically speaking, it's a Private Op (or has been up to this point), so isn't getting paid a bit on the shady side??
If said pilot walks into a mob in Darwin/Kunnas and offers to work for free, sure string him up/birch them/whatever floats your boat. But not skydiving...
Just curious guys, for my own amusement. To the ones on here that reckon flying meatbombs for free is immoral/worse than worshipping satan/worse than waking up beside a sheman in Thailand:
-How many have made it into the airlines (Or the job of your dreams) ? What experience level are you at the moment? (@ you lk978/GADRVR/puff/jaeiou)
-Along the way, did you ever get paid below the award or do any little bit of gratis ie ferry flight when you were just fresh etc or pay for a endorsement to get a job. Be honest now...
-If in the airlines, did you have to pay for a Type Rating (Including Salary Sacrifice)
Cheers
j3
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j3pipercub - only paid for retract, csu endo and initial twin in MECIR... 1500 TT in 9 years... most of which was in the last 2 years... it is a slow game but sh!t it is fun
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J3....a fair question near the end of your post and deserving of an honest answer.
1. Never worked for less than the award....I ALWAYS found a way around what employers were trying to do. Free endorsements on aircraft that weren't on the AOC, half hourly rate, half salary..., free MECIR, the list goes on.
2. Have worked on the management side. Made sure the guys I was responsible for didn't have to put up with same **** I did.
3. No free ferry flying....made sure I was paid....EVERY time....at the award rate or above.
4. Couple of thousand hours with most/all of the boxes ticked.
Have I missed out on work because I won't work for zippo...or won't break rules...or won't put up with sleazy operators...or fly ill maintained aircraft?
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!! I figure my attitude has put me behind about 3 years of seniority....or about $400,000 in lost pay/super when I turn 65.
Do I regret that...ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
I wake up, look at myself in the mirror and am not ashamed of anything I've done in this industry. Pity about a few of the posters here.
1. Never worked for less than the award....I ALWAYS found a way around what employers were trying to do. Free endorsements on aircraft that weren't on the AOC, half hourly rate, half salary..., free MECIR, the list goes on.
2. Have worked on the management side. Made sure the guys I was responsible for didn't have to put up with same **** I did.
3. No free ferry flying....made sure I was paid....EVERY time....at the award rate or above.
4. Couple of thousand hours with most/all of the boxes ticked.
Have I missed out on work because I won't work for zippo...or won't break rules...or won't put up with sleazy operators...or fly ill maintained aircraft?
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!! I figure my attitude has put me behind about 3 years of seniority....or about $400,000 in lost pay/super when I turn 65.
Do I regret that...ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
I wake up, look at myself in the mirror and am not ashamed of anything I've done in this industry. Pity about a few of the posters here.
Thanks for the responses guys. At the end of the day though, if they want to work for free, it is their choice.
I have worked as a meatbomber and got paid enought to get by, nowhere near the award though, and I knew that when I signed up. Do I regret it, no...I sleep just fine also, I guess it's just a matter of perspective.
Would I work for nothing? Nope, never...But I don't blame/hate/berate the guys who do. They're willing to do something I'm not therefore I was never in the running for that job anyway.
Will I not recommend them for a job? Depends if they're a sidchrome or not. If they're good people and good operators of course I would recommend them for a job. For me it doesn't depend on whether they flew skydivers for free or not.
I.E. Meatbomber at local strip. Works for free mainly on weekend. I am at bowser, flying school aircraft behind me, meatbomber pulls up behind flying school. I am taking my time as it's been a long time since I re-fuelled my own aircraft (sorry) and I'm having trouble with my fuel card and sequence of events. Instructor and student keep their distance staring impatiently at my attempts at efficiency. Jump trucker walks on over (past flying school aircraft) and gives me a few pointers, done and on my way in no time. Sure he probably had motives to get me going so he could get fuel but who do you think I'm going to recommend for a job? The guy that stares at me or the guy that helps...don't matter to me if he/she flies for free as a jump trucker.
j3
I have worked as a meatbomber and got paid enought to get by, nowhere near the award though, and I knew that when I signed up. Do I regret it, no...I sleep just fine also, I guess it's just a matter of perspective.
Would I work for nothing? Nope, never...But I don't blame/hate/berate the guys who do. They're willing to do something I'm not therefore I was never in the running for that job anyway.
Will I not recommend them for a job? Depends if they're a sidchrome or not. If they're good people and good operators of course I would recommend them for a job. For me it doesn't depend on whether they flew skydivers for free or not.
I.E. Meatbomber at local strip. Works for free mainly on weekend. I am at bowser, flying school aircraft behind me, meatbomber pulls up behind flying school. I am taking my time as it's been a long time since I re-fuelled my own aircraft (sorry) and I'm having trouble with my fuel card and sequence of events. Instructor and student keep their distance staring impatiently at my attempts at efficiency. Jump trucker walks on over (past flying school aircraft) and gives me a few pointers, done and on my way in no time. Sure he probably had motives to get me going so he could get fuel but who do you think I'm going to recommend for a job? The guy that stares at me or the guy that helps...don't matter to me if he/she flies for free as a jump trucker.
j3